AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion

[Rors]

A death frenzied doom-flayer could make a really good screen too.

You don't even need to attack with it, just let it die, which activates an attack (use more-more), good odds that it's own attack also kills it and triggers death frenzy again. There's nothing in the rules I've seen that says a model can't be slain multiple times before being removed it just generally wouldn't happen.

That's 4d6 reasons to make an opponent think about charging you.

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

@Cosmicsheep Yup you are right. I didn't even see that you had to roll a dice. That seems very niche against hyper elite units or already half-strength or worse enemies. Hmmm.

[Colonic]

The book is out! When do we get our own Burrow-Forum?

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

So I've played 4 games now with the new book with various lists to see each unit hit the table. I have some observations. 

• His majesty high lord Thanquol and fellow boneripper are what the kids are calling "fresh". He's not an auto-include but talk about a spell dom and a galletian vet destroyer, whew. 
• Rat swarms: yes, these guys. MVPs of every game. With so much teleporting and mobility in the game, zoning people out and having cheap chaff is more important than ever before. I've played the new Sylvaneth book twice now and shutting down terrain with annoying bodies is almost comical. 
• Hero hammer: get used to paying nearly 1k pts in heroes every list. Skyre doesn't count because you make that up with including stormfiends. That said Verminlords got a solid glow-up, more consistent in damage and up to speed wording despite  the 100pt hike. After a few extra enhancements, they are fairly priced. 
• Rat Ogres: no surprise, big winners. More independent and must be respected albeit still squishy enough to reward smart play. Strictly speaking, they are the missing piece to our model range in the form of hammers. We didn't have one in the previous book and that role on the table is easily filled now for that much needed counter punch. 
• Reinforcement points: a glaring omission from the book was enabling larger hordes. The whole push of the new season is the "horde meta" but I don't see that happening unless you're playing pure verminous. How does Daughters of Khaine gain the free reinforcement point option in their newest book and skaven don't. Riddle me that. 
• Playstyle: sky's the limit. I played a monster mash list with a bunch of A-bombs, had a blast. Pure eshin builds are viable and sneaky to reward clever play. Alpha-charging is viable to us (but don't if you want to actually win). Heck, even void deploying is a possibility. Have fun. 

 

[Ratling]

On 7/1/2022 at 9:13 PM, W1tchhunter said:

https://cults3d.com/en/3d-model/game/beyblade-riders

These are great

Yet they are very far stylistically from GW style and scale

[Causalis]

So I want to play a few weapon teams. Thinking about including 2 of each flavour (excluding warp grinders). Any tips for using them? Flayer + Deathfrenzy seems like a nice combo. And buffing Ratling Guns with +1dmg is obvious too. 

But I'm unsure about hiding them in my Clanrats. 20 die very easily and since we can't unveil the weapons teams in the opponents turn they just die too if they are hidden. 

Buuuut, Overseer of destruction also seems like a waste... Would Deranged Inventor be worth it or better go with a Command Trait on a different hero altogether? 

[Skreech Verminking]

2 minutes ago, Causalis said:

So I want to play a few weapon teams. Thinking about including 2 of each flavour (excluding warp grinders). Any tips for using them? Flayer + Deathfrenzy seems like a nice combo. And buffing Ratling Guns with +1dmg is obvious too. 

But I'm unsure about hiding them in my Clanrats. 20 die very easily and since we can't unveil the weapons teams in the opponents turn they just die too if they are hidden. 

Buuuut, Overseer of destruction also seems like a waste... Would Deranged Inventor be worth it or better go with a Command Trait on a different hero altogether? 

Overseer of destruction is pretty much likely said useless.

the only time you’ll want that is when you’ve basically build up an army around weapon teams.

(The lore text doesn’t even describe what it truly does, badly done by gw)

Just go for the deranged inventor stuff.

as for the weapon teams.

hiding is probably the best idea, if you fear-fear that they might die pretty soon, I’d suggest to you to hide some of the weapon teams but not all.

if you got multiple units of clanrats, you’re best of hiding your weapon teams in those units that won’t be screening your whole army.

(depending who your going to play against)

[Skreech Verminking]

7 hours ago, Ratling said:

Yet they are very far stylistically from GW style and scale

Yeah I really love their look.

Technically it is gw’s own fault for not updating the oldest range.

I just have to ask a friend of mine, if he could print them out for me

Edited July 10, 2022 by Skreech Verminking

[DocKeule]

3 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Yeah I really love their look.

Technically it is gw’s own fault for not updating the oldest range.

I just have to ask a friend of mine, if he could print them out for me

You would probably be better off with that. Apart from the prices that are hefty...a nine part metal model? No thanks.

Edited July 10, 2022 by DocKeule

[W1tchhunter]

Personally I think those Emang prints are by far the best and the most accurate proxies to the skaven range. All the models are ripped from the Total War Warhammer series, which Games Workshop was involved in, meaning all the models in the game were approved by GW. 

 

Why GW doesn't just do this themselves with all the outdated ranges is beyond me, but here we are. Makes it cheaper for us i guess 🤷 

[Skreech Verminking]

3 hours ago, W1tchhunter said:

Personally I think those Emang prints are by far the best and the most accurate proxies to the skaven range. All the models are ripped from the Total War Warhammer series, which Games Workshop was involved in, meaning all the models in the game were approved by GW. 

 

Why GW doesn't just do this themselves with all the outdated ranges is beyond me, but here we are. Makes it cheaper for us i guess 🤷 

Yep, sorry gw, but you basically suck

[DocKeule]

7 hours ago, W1tchhunter said:

Why GW doesn't just do this themselves with all the outdated ranges is beyond me, but here we are. Makes it cheaper for us i guess 🤷 

Because there is no money in that. Skaven don't have many new players and there are tons of ratmen on ebay etc. 

If they brought new Clanrats...who of us would replace the existing 100+ models with newer sculpts spending a couple of hundred bucks in the process? I wouldn't. 

 

 

3 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Yep, sorry gw, but you basically suck

Yes that is pretty much the quintessential conclusion from the last couple of years. And it is getting worse.  

[Skreech Verminking]

1 minute ago, DocKeule said:

If they brought new Clanrats...who of us would replace the existing 100+ models with newer sculpts spending a couple of hundred bucks in the process? I wouldn't. 

I would pay a ton of money for some good looking acolytes.

but ain’t  interested in waiting another 20 tears

[W1tchhunter]

2 hours ago, DocKeule said:

Because there is no money in that. Skaven don't have many new players and there are tons of ratmen on ebay etc. 

If they brought new Clanrats...who of us would replace the existing 100+ models with newer sculpts spending a couple of hundred bucks in the process? I wouldn't. 

 

 

Yes that is pretty much the quintessential conclusion from the last couple of years. And it is getting worse.  

It's not the clanrats that need changing though. The weapon teams need updates. Moulder needs updates on pretty much every single unit plus we are in a whole new setting now they could come up with all kinds of new grotesque abominations. Eshins range is absolutely dire in terms of model quality and number of models, I personally would love to see Deathrunners.

 

There's 100% money to be made with the skaven dunno where that idea even comes from haha. 

 

Edit* Forgot the Eshin Sorcerer! He would be a welcome addition also.

Edited July 10, 2022 by W1tchhunter

[Moogypies]

So close to finishing all the skaven books, 3 more to go! 



Had my first tournament with the new book last weekend. 

Overall felt great and like all games where winnable went 1-2 but both the losses of games where lost by a single dice roll and had a single point or two between them, the first game by my plague furnace not managing to deal single wound to eltharion, and second due to failing the clans pestilens tactic when the plague furnace rolled double 1 on prayers!  

List was 
 

Spoiler

 

[Causalis]

How do you use Clanrats? Since I'm brand new to the rat-men, they seem just like bodies to me. But somehow I see a lot of people on reddit or YT talking about potential buff-stacking like Skavenbrew and Clawlord CA etc. to give them a lot of attacks. I just don't see why you would ever want to buff these guys. Or is this actually how they are ment to be played?

As I read their warscroll, I would just use 2-3 min sized units as screens and to swarm objectives, but that's it. Any buffs I would rather throw on Plague Monks, Rogers or Stormvermin etc.

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

On 7/12/2022 at 10:08 AM, Moogypies said:

 

This shelf pleases the Great Horned Rat.

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

@Causalis Truly clanrats are the best unit in our army. I will attempt to defend that. 

Firstly, to answer your concern about buffing them, in terms of damage, the most efficient way is to target down a unit that is subject to the Curse prayer combined with Skavenbrew, like you mentioned, or just a good ol' clawlord. A 60 block swinging at such a target with those buffs is 120 attacks available (because of the 3" range) and statistically doing 20 MWs! You can run Grey seer, Plague Priest, 60 clanrats to make it happen by skitterleaping the priest in range and rolling the dice on the prayer, all for the low-low price of 540ish something points. 

Secondly, clanrats run AND retreat like no one's business. This allows clanrats to have what is called a "high ceiling" of usefulness. Movement shenanigans wins games. Bodies on objectives win games. This combined with Expert conquerors battalion making them count as 3 per model is a thing. It is important to consider running them in movement trays still as playing tricksy with the back-bone of the army can make opponents grumble at how long you take. That said, you can start expanding your horizons on how you can use them. For example: did you know you can still string them all out in a single line? They remain on 25 mm bases and so long as they are all in base to base contact, you can safely declare that they are in unit coherency (as a reminder each model has to be within 1" of 2 other models).  Again, don't try this unless you have practice and/or movement trays but I hope this inspires you. 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Riff_Raff_Rascal

[Causalis]

@Riff_Raff_Rascal Thanks for the input! I definitely have experience with horde armies as I also play Soulblight, Gits and Cities.

Yet I still can't see why I would buff the Clanrats instead of other units. 20 Stormvermin or even 30 Plague Monks will dish out more damage with the setup you described. A big Blob of 60 Clanrats is also very unwieldy and may only hold one objective at a time. And with the new Hunters Battalion, 60 rats can even be killed in one turn. 

MSU Clanrats would give more board control and can screen better but won't take Buffs as well as 60 would. 

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

@Causalis Everything you said is true. The topic at hand was buffing them, and thats all I've ever done with them.

Counter point on the 60 blob: How else are you going to hide 6 weapon teams and an assassin, hidden in a unit, that is itself hidden with a weapon team? Some real Russian Doll shenanigans. Riddle me that.

The reality is that yes, bounty hunters exist now, and they will explode. Clanrats are not a hammer and thus not the best targets for buffs. That said, they remain a tarpit against ordinary units and can handle shooting//magic armies like a champ. I would seriously rate the Bless prayer on them as you can actually get some value there and at the same time are the only real benefactors of the Rally command. The current shift this season will see a great many staple battleline staying away from battle altogether and the real kings will be non-battleline chaff (*cough, rat swarms, cough*). 

If running MSU clanrats, theres real power in keeping them in reserve for late game GV objective control. They dont need to do much else. If running 40 or 60, they can still zone out a huge swath of your back board and benefit from those defensive strats I mentioned before. 

The real question you have to ask when building your lists is battleshock mitigation. How many units can you afford to baby sit with Inspiring presence or the Savage Overlord command trait. That will determine your unit sizes, and not just for clanrats. 

[greg19190]

On 7/12/2022 at 4:08 PM, Moogypies said:

So close to finishing all the skaven books, 3 more to go! 



Had my first tournament with the new book last weekend. 

Overall felt great and like all games where winnable went 1-2 but both the losses of games where lost by a single dice roll and had a single point or two between them, the first game by my plague furnace not managing to deal single wound to eltharion, and second due to failing the clans pestilens tactic when the plague furnace rolled double 1 on prayers!  

List was 
 

  Hide contents

 

Did you run the rat ogers at the healing d3 and move 8 ones or the 6 attacks and re-role charge ones? 

[Cosmicsheep]

11 hours ago, greg19190 said:

Did you run the rat ogers at the healing d3 and move 8 ones or the 6 attacks and re-role charge ones? 

I didn't think you could do that anymore. The rogors have the old toughened sinews built into their warscroll now

[Causalis]

@Riff_Raff_Rascal I'm looking forward to trying different builds! I'll share my experiences here. A buddy and I will start a Path to Glory campaign in August, beginning at 1000p each (he'll start with Fyreslayers).

With Clanrats being a screen or tarpit, what do you guys recommend for damage? There's obviously the Warbringer with various buffs layered on top. 

Would you say 4+ weapon teams are viable? They are individually cheap and seem like efficient "bombs" that should be able to easily make their points back. 

Then there's Stormfiends. I really like the models but I'm unsure how good they actually are. The standard load out of Ratgun, WL and Shockfists seems ok but not amazing. And 6 of these guys are too many points in one unit for my taste. So just use them as durable harassment? Or do you stack all Skryre Buffs on them to deal damage at range? 

And finally I want to talk about the Clawlord. Ironically his profile is something my Khorne heroes would salivate over ^^" With the artefact that makes opponents saves -1 worse he is effectively -2 rend. Throw Skavenbrew on him and he actually looks quite scary. Is this a trap or actually viable? 

[Skreech Verminking]

2 hours ago, Causalis said:

And finally I want to talk about the Clawlord. Ironically his profile is something my Khorne heroes would salivate over ^^" With the artefact that makes opponents saves -1 worse he is effectively -2 rend. Throw Skavenbrew on him and he actually looks quite scary. Is this a trap or actually viable? 

Cast dreaded deathfrenzy on him, and you’ll see😜

[greg19190]

3 hours ago, Cosmicsheep said:

I didn't think you could do that anymore. The rogors have the old toughened sinews built into their warscroll no

you can only do it once as the kragnose book says "if a Skaventide army includes any fighting beasts units, 1 of those fighting beasts units can have a clan molder mutation" so you can do it to 1 rat oger unit as they have the rat ogre chart still, as they are still key word "rat ogers" the bit we lost was the prize creations from the new book meeting you can only do it to one  so as I read it yes we can... 

Edited July 15, 2022 by greg19190
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