Upcoming FAQ and small Community Rant

[Melcavuk]

It’s worth mentioning that TGA is a happy place, whilst I understand that sometimes passions get the better of us all opinions are equally valid 

 

edit: except my spelling, which has now been corrected 

[Nos]

28 minutes ago, Vextol said:

The "been in the hobby for decades" is the old trick to prop your opinion above others'.  Know how long I've been playing?  You don't.  Because I never say .  I value opinions from all sources, not just the those who've had them the longest.

If  you haven't seen the balancing I'm not sure what to say.  GHB points for one.  No need for those at all outside of a game intended for some kind of balance.  Certainly don't need to update it yearly. 

Attempting twice to fix the summoning mechanic.  

FAQs that exist to clarify and balance.  Their words. 

Rules of 1 followed by updated rules of 1 followed by a complete core handbook of rules expanding the simple 4 page ruleset to 20. 

Introduction of look out sir to compensate for shooting and an expanded LOS mechanism. 

The introduction of BtB measurement, something completely unnecessary for narrative games.  Who care right?  It's just for fun.

Rewording and more stabdardization of common phrases in war scrolls to better serve a future outlook.  Why standardize?  Just keep writing however you want.

You say that the malign sorcery and the realms were just for narrative?  That's silly. I think they were just for matched play.  Step off my stuff!  Seriously though, they were for both, something I strongly support.

The release of an app, which at onset, was supposed to be able to update things more frequently.  An APP that has no value to collectors.  No value whatsoever to a group of people interested in just pretty looking models.  And what costs money?  The POINTS.  Because that's where they make their money.  They make it on the point system.

These are all balancing things that aren't necessary for a company only interested in making a 'book on table' with a bunch of fancy plastic. 

Also, they tried that.  Remember when AoS came out and noone played and they had all the fancy models?  Remember when they considered canning the line because noone wanted it?  You should because it happened. Then GHB came out and it started  to turn thing around.  Step one of examining a company's success is throw out the most obvious source.  How better to make the mistake again.

I have no idea what game you are playing if you don't think they are trying to balance the game more over time. 

What else am I missing?  Oh, you never address the notion that I shouldn't want them to balance it.  You don't want balance?  Tell me why.  Why don't you want them to strive for balance?  It's impossible which I understand, but improvement is not.  It's just warscrolls and numbers, the model line can continue to grow and remain the focus of the company.   I want them to keep making good models   I want them to build cool backstory.  I could give a rats a** about it, but I know there  are people who like it and I want them to have a good experience.

Whats so awful about asking that, WHEN they balance, not if because they do it at least 3 times a year, when they balance, I'd like them to consider making other units more interesting, not just reducing the effectiveness of "overused" units.  I'm not calling for perfect balance  I just want more models to be relevant.  Why is that a bad thing to want?

Bah...I went long and crabby. I think I'm done. Time to abandon the internet for a few weeks again.  Here's to the upcoming FAQ !

I’m not using my experience in the hobby to do anything other than illustrate that I  can recognise trends and long term changes. My experience in the hobby does not invalidate anyone else’s points of view.

I can for example from said experience tell you that changing a simple rule like Look our Sir! is not a hallmark of prioritising Balance because they introduce and tweak new rules with every new rules iteration and every new rulebooks has always led to a different meta. 5th edition Warhammer tended to prioritise small heroic armies and ridiculous magic so in 6th edition they made it much more of an armies game with the rules and force organisation charts they introduced and then in 7th they tried to bring back more of the fantastical and so on.

The GHB is basically an errata compendium and a welcome addition and I’ve never stated otherwise.  But again I will say that a GHB and an FAQ is not a revolutionary statement. For the most part these are updates that allow you to continue to use models from old collections. A Free People’s army or similar is in no way fit to take on most armies with a Battletome. The GHB and FAQ is no way keeping up with the other additions to AOS and the evolution of it’s system, something which is only going to continue now WD is also becoming a source of new rules and battalions etc. As mentioned in this thread from the Jervis quote, it’s designed to keep things from getting out of hand, that’s it.

I don’t remember them considering canning AOS and neither do you because that’s utter speculation. At no point has GW ever said this. In fact on this very site there was some good discussion around AOS deliberately being launched as a bare bones beta product and then filing in the gaps as required.

I think they made an App because it’s the 21st Century. The points to which you uh point as being all the be-all and end all are not included in said app which rather defeats your argument there. The rules for playing with them without points are though. Almost like the points aren’t so vital right? Literally everything you need to play with any model in the range, *apart from points values*.

I’ve made my point at length and I’m sorry you couldnt respond to it in kind without becoming emotional.  At no point have I said I dont want balance, or that GW arent trying to improve balance, just that it’s a complex issue and  not their priority or the absolute breaking point for them as you state with absolute certainty it is but with very little evidence to support said statement. There’s nothing awful about asking for balance but then no-one asserted it was so it’s a strange statement to make.

[Carnivore]

Well, imo the handling of buffing / nerfing units / armies etc. is pretty poorn.

It feels a, like it's just the case in the digital gaming indurty. Thos, who complain the loudest, will be heared. And most likely, changes to the game might occur, because of the lid screaminf of a minority.

What it comes down to, at least imo, is a simple circumstance:

Whenever armies get too restricted ( gameplay itself ) in their playable opportunities, something went absolutely wrong.

In an example, I want to get into my own army, not counting "fun games" only ( because fun games always work 😞

Khorne Bloodbound / Blades of Khorne

In the entire history of the army, they got battalion nerfed, point cost changed.

What's the result?
If someone really wants to win, it comes down to 2 of 10 battalions. And even there, most units got

a) nerfed ( Bloodletters for example )
b) too expensive to use effectively ( Skullreapers for example )

Ironically, those 2 mentioned units, where 2 of a number of units, concidered to be "too strong".

IMO, when it comes to balance, GW should concider to keep all the possibilities of ALL armies. If it is then needed to balance, then it could be via point value, but that's really it imo.

[Vextol]

1 hour ago, Nos said:

There’s nothing awful about asking for balance

Thank you for addressing my specific question.  Looks like we are on the same page after all! 😉

[JackStreicher]

The main issue is the frequency at which rules are clarified (twice or thrice a year??) which comes with too long waiting times.

the reworking of awful Warscrolls (once a year at best?)

and the fixing of internal Point-cost imbalance (once a year? Coming this June/Juli)

 

it‘s just too few fixes while issues stay for  half a year or more. We‘d need quicker big adjustments of points, clarifications and Warscrolls every 2,5 months or so.

a simple FAQ won‘t do it, sth. Like a small „chapter approved“ would do the trick.

 

[Black Blade]

23 hours ago, Mayple said:

People are saying Eels are overpowered? I'd ask you to point me in their directions so that I can see it with my own eyes, but live and let live (On a completely unrelated note, old Kroak on a balewind, now -that's- overpowered!) *ahem* Anyway!

Volty is ok I guess but the shock eels are OP. A potential battleline unit with a 16 inch fly plus charge threat change, ignoring terrain and screens that rend 2 damage 2 JUST on the spears plus eel attacks plus MW shock. They are the best cav in the game and they are undercosted.

[Saxon]

On ‎1‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 12:20 PM, Blightzkrieg said:

If an ability is underpowered, it can ruin a unit. If an ability is overpowered, it can ruin the whole game. 

I imagine buffing units just isn't a priority for the rules team. 

The first thing I think of when I think over-powered is a Bastilidon from Seraphon or Executioners for Dark Elves. 

My big gripe with GW for AOS was having these legacy armies  or armies without a battletome (I own one which has now been shelved because its no longer fun without allying new models) which have to work 10x harder to beat these new turbo-charged armies. Either level the playing field or don't sell the models. A mate has been put off Warhammer entirely because he started collecting at the wrong time and virtually had a half complete legacy army that has been ignored in the new version and regularly gets stomped unless he plays me or someone else with a legacy army.

A lot of people talk about power creep but when you have someone with a legacy army and 10 years experience playing a new player with a shiny battletome army getting stomped it's hard to watch.  

[CaptainSoup]

1 hour ago, Saxon said:

Either level the playing field or don't sell the models.

From what we are seeing, you could make a good guess that GW is slowly working on it. Between the LoN book (That everyone just loves ), the Beasts book and the upcoming grots book it seems GW is trying to get the best of both worlds by rolling the old models into a new faction. That way it will make the old guard happy (or at least complain about something else) and it will make GW happy cause those same people will buy the new shiny models.

Just speculation of course, but maybe a bit more patience could go a long way.

Oh, and the rumor engine has been really hinting at some new old models like free guild so who knows.

[Gotrek]

7 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

The main issue is the frequency at which rules are clarified (twice or thrice a year??) which comes with too long waiting times.

the reworking of awful Warscrolls (once a year at best?)

and the fixing of internal Point-cost imbalance (once a year? Coming this June/Juli)

 

it‘s just too few fixes while issues stay for  half a year or more. We‘d need quicker big adjustments of points, clarifications and Warscrolls every 2,5 months or so.

a simple FAQ won‘t do it, sth. Like a small „chapter approved“ would do the trick.

 

2 and a half months... you want a new generals handbook (thats what chapter approved is, its the GHB) every 2 and a half months. i dont think you thought that through. the tournament scene would die a swift and painful death just because of the speed of the changes. good luck getting units painted, by the time you finish the new hotness its been changed and doesnt fit in your list anymore (either it got made terrible or it costs too much now). with changes that rapid there wouldnt be a meta and the amount of work on the TOs (and players) would be absurd (just keeping track of whats been changed and when would be a huge headache).

 

1 hour ago, Saxon said:

The first thing I think of when I think over-powered is a Bastilidon from Seraphon or Executioners for Dark Elves. 

My big gripe with GW for AOS was having these legacy armies  or armies without a battletome (I own one which has now been shelved because its no longer fun without allying new models) which have to work 10x harder to beat these new turbo-charged armies. Either level the playing field or don't sell the models. A mate has been put off Warhammer entirely because he started collecting at the wrong time and virtually had a half complete legacy army that has been ignored in the new version and regularly gets stomped unless he plays me or someone else with a legacy army.

A lot of people talk about power creep but when you have someone with a legacy army and 10 years experience playing a new player with a shiny battletome army getting stomped it's hard to watch.  

i cant speak to executioners because i dont play them or have played against them but for the bastiladon, you either tarpit it (dude cant fight worth a damn) or you just mortal wound it off the table (yes yes 4+ vs mortals but its still better than the rerollable 3+ save with thunderquake).

secondly i find it hilarious that you talk about how legacy armies are trash and then the 2 examples of overpowered models are legacy armies. hell, the darkling covens dont even have a tome at all. unless your mate is playing bretonnia or tomb kings i dont think the problem is his collection (and even at that with some minor conversions suddenly they can become other stronger units)

[Sleboda]

8 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

We‘d need quicker big adjustments of points, clarifications and Warscrolls every 2,5 months or so.

I know I'm often vocal about how it's wrong-headed to place too much importance on tournament-goers in terms of GW's approach to the rules, but in this one case I'll support them not messing with tournaments.

Many people, myself included, will take a year or more to work on a new army targeted at an event or two. If points changed more often, it could severely undermines those efforts.

I don't really want new point values more frequently, other than maybe an adjustment to the points for a Battletome's new units 4 weeks after that new Battletome hits (and the masses catch the obvious missed valuations).

[Saxon]

43 minutes ago, Gotrek said:

 

secondly i find it hilarious that you talk about how legacy armies are trash and then the 2 examples of overpowered models are legacy armies. hell, the darkling covens dont even have a tome at all. unless your mate is playing bretonnia or tomb kings i dont think the problem is his collection (and even at that with some minor conversions suddenly they can become other stronger units)

Seraphon are  a battletome army. I didn't even start with things like SC, GLoN or Nighthaunt which are in a league of their own. 

The evidence is watching YouTube channels like miniwargaming where the same bunch of experienced players use different armies constantly. Armies without a battletome rarely ever win. Look at the Empire. If you want to play free people you're limited to 400pts of guns and tanks as allies. It crappy no matter what way you look at it. Guns are the best part. 

A lot of people i used to game with only do 40k because when we played fantasy 10 years ago they liked certain armies. Now as older adults with more disposable income, they won't commit because the lack of certainty surrounding these armies. It's a big negative from GW. Sure they want to space out their releases to maintain hype but its not ideal. Who wants to drop money on an army that will either get dropped or altered to the point that models may be redundant. 

[Saxon]

1 hour ago, CaptainSoup said:

From what we are seeing, you could make a good guess that GW is slowly working on it. Between the LoN book (That everyone just loves ), the Beasts book and the upcoming grots book it seems GW is trying to get the best of both worlds by rolling the old models into a new faction. That way it will make the old guard happy (or at least complain about something else) and it will make GW happy cause those same people will buy the new shiny models.

Just speculation of course, but maybe a bit more patience could go a long way.

Oh, and the rumor engine has been really hinting at some new old models like free guild so who knows.

Patience is hard when you want to play games with your friends but can't justify dropping money on an army that is in purgatory. Free guild is a good example given that it has a lot of cool models in Steam Tanks, Griffins and the Hurricanum (not that you can play all 3 in a free guild list). However, that's $300AUD in models for an army without a battletome that may be updated. If it does, new models could make current builds partially redundant and if they don't its an army with only 400pts of the good stuff available. 

[Mayple]

2 hours ago, Black Blade said:

Volty is ok I guess but the shock eels are OP. A potential battleline unit with a 16 inch fly plus charge threat change, ignoring terrain and screens that rend 2 damage 2 JUST on the spears plus eel attacks plus MW shock. They are the best cav in the game and they are undercosted.

OP huh?

There's three of them. What objectives are they going to take? For 160 points per unit, they're not going to be outnumbering you anytime soon.

Ignoring screens? Why are your screens spaced out away from the things they're trying to protect? Eels can't land on top of models, so they really have no way of reaching the targets they want to hit unless you actively invite them to do so. (Or if you play Beastclaw Raiders, I suppose) 

Sure, damage 2 rend 2 sounds scary, but they've only got access to that when they charge, so they better pray they charge the right thing, because if they don't, they will hit you like wet noodles in a breeze. Their mortal wound output (underwhelming - look at Evocators for a properly scary unit when it comes to that mechanic), that's just once per game, so again falls within the area of "if they don't hit exactly what they want, they're schrewed" - which you should actively be seeking to deny them. 

Eels suffer greatly from a "Okay, but now what" deficiency when it comes to their potential. They're only strong in very specific situations, which allows the opponent to dictate what engagements are available to make, all of which should favour the one playing against the eels. 

Just play compact, walk your army up to an objective, and win the game. What are they going to do about it? Waste their only-on-a-charge and/or once-per-game damage output on whatever you deem sacrificial enough to screen with and get themselves obliterated in return due to their insignificant combat prowess outside of those terms? Oh no! They killed, when the stars themselves align, -maybe- twelve of your least useful peasants! Let's get out of here boys, the battle is lost

Speed and punching power is all well and good, but at the end of the day, if you have nowhere useful to go, and nothing important to punch, your whole advantage goes out the window. Eel spam would be the least competitive approach you could possibly take with a Deepkin army.

[Gotrek]

4 minutes ago, Saxon said:

Patience is hard when you want to play games with your friends but can't justify dropping money on an army that is in purgatory. Free guild is a good example given that it has a lot of cool models in Steam Tanks, Griffins and the Hurricanum (not that you can play all 3 in a free guild list). However, that's $300AUD in models for an army without a battletome that may be updated. If it does, new models could make current builds partially redundant and if they don't its an army with only 400pts of the good stuff available. 

when the seraphon got their battletome none of the scrolls in it changed from when AoS first launched and since it was a wave 1 tome it didnt have any spells, artifacts, or command traits. the bastiladon thats on the table now was written at the same time as the steam tank so i'd say it qualifies as a legacy model.

as for freeguild: dont play freeguild allegiance. play GA order, suddenly now you're just limited to the behemoth/leader/artillery slots. his old empire army is fully playable (minus the knights. RIP). I mean, take 3 units of 20 crossbowmen and throw the freeguild general on foot's command ability on them and you have 180 shots at 20" hitting on 3s wounding on 3s. thats enough to get 25 wounds through on a bastiladon. enough to kill an entire brick of super witch aelves from hagg-nar with damage to spare. and that only takes 1000pts leaving you with enough to get 3 steam tanks and a lord ordiantor to buff them.

 

miniwargaming is limited in what they have models for as well as how well they are capable of playing an army and how they make the list. free people are a gunline army and that doesnt make for good video. i cant count the number of times i've heard one of them say "i'd like to change this list but these are the models we have."

[Saxon]

Just now, Gotrek said:

 as for freeguild: dont play freeguild allegiance. play GA order, suddenly now you're just limited to the behemoth/leader/artillery slots. his old empire army is fully playable (minus the knights. RIP). I mean, take 3 units of 20 crossbowmen and throw the freeguild general on foot's command ability on them and you have 180 shots at 20" hitting on 3s wounding on 3s. thats enough to get 25 wounds through on a bastiladon. enough to kill an entire brick of super witch aelves from hagg-nar with damage to spare. and that only takes 1000pts leaving you with enough to get 3 steam tanks and a lord ordiantor to buff them.

 

miniwargaming is limited in what they have models for as well as how well they are capable of playing an army and how they make the list. free people are a gunline army and that doesnt make for good video. i cant count the number of times i've heard one of them say "i'd like to change this list but these are the models we have."

Thats not really the point though is it. I play freeguild and have resorted to playing grand order alliance to be more competitive. A free guild list is also really easy to figure out as an opponent. 

Worse is they sell models on square bases and require you to play on round ones. Poor form. 

Miniwargaming do have limited models but have you ever seen a non-tome list beat an up to date one?

[Mayple]

1 minute ago, Saxon said:

Thats not really the point though is it. I play freeguild and have resorted to playing grand order alliance to be more competitive. A free guild list is also really easy to figure out as an opponent. 

Worse is they sell models on square bases and require you to play on round ones. Poor form. 

To be fair, Free guild is much stronger than people give it credit for. Played correctly (or just cleverly? One of the two) they're capable of pretty solid feats of destruction. Their internal synergy with the great companies is really really nice, and allows for some downright nasty baits. 

They do suffer a bit from wanting to be immobile though, so there's that. 

4 minutes ago, Saxon said:

Miniwargaming do have limited models but have you ever seen a non-tome list beat an up to date one?

Seen it on Miniwargaming, or in general? I see the latter all the time. 

[Gotrek]

9 minutes ago, Saxon said:

Thats not really the point though is it. I play freeguild and have resorted to playing grand order alliance to be more competitive. A free guild list is also really easy to figure out as an opponent. 

Worse is they sell models on square bases and require you to play on round ones. Poor form. 

Miniwargaming do have limited models but have you ever seen a non-tome list beat an up to date one?

1) yeah it is the point. its a non tome army that *can* perform, that literally what you wanted, with the faction you wanted. yes, their allegiance is ******. it happens.

2) yes, several times. including the most recent one (KO vs StD). granted, non tome armies are being played less on there these days because theres a lot of tomes out there now so the sample size will be ever dwindling.

[Saxon]

2 minutes ago, Mayple said:

To be fair, Free guild is much stronger than people give it credit for. Played correctly (or just cleverly? One of the two) they're capable of pretty solid feats of destruction. Their internal synergy with the great companies is really really nice, and allows for some downright nasty baits. 

 They do suffer a bit from wanting to be immobile though, so there's that. 

Seen it on Miniwargaming, or in general? I see the latter all the time. 

Yes but they can be easily bracketed by a smart opponent. If you're running 20 man crossbow lines it takes 1 casualty to take away the double shots. Takes 1 casualty in 20 man units of anything else to remove the to hit bonuses. Kill the foot general and hold the line goes away. Units capable of doing this easily are Kroak, Rotigus, The Great Unclean One casting with line of sight. 

Having played them almost exclusively for a 6 months or so the tactics remain very similar no matter the situation because you are essentially a blob army. I love the models and its good fun shooting down unit with gunners but free guild could be so much more. 

[Saxon]

10 minutes ago, Gotrek said:

1) yeah it is the point. its a non tome army that *can* perform, that literally what you wanted, with the faction you wanted. yes, their allegiance is ******. it happens.

 2) yes, several times. including the most recent one (KO vs StD). granted, non tome armies are being played less on there these days because theres a lot of tomes out there now so the sample size will be ever dwindling.

1) Purists don't like to muddy the waters  All i wanted when I came back in was to get as close to the empire as I could. Bringing in Fantasy golden bloody space marines doesn't appeal to me at all from a painting side or a fluff side. Purely playing a mix-n-match army because it's competitive is not my cut of tea. I guess it does happen on the basis that GW want to stagger releases to keep hype going. I get it. I always loved the empire models and fluff so whether they were bad or not I was always going to buy them. But at least put them on bloody round bases haha! 

2) Sample size is dwindling but with the classics remaining (Elves, Dwarves and Humans) it's not the best strategy for some people coming back into the game. Just an opinion. When I walked into my local GW store here in Oz after 10 years I knew I wanted Free Guild. They don't even sell models for non-tome armies in store. I had to buy online. That's taking money away from their stores. Is it the same in your country? 

[Mayple]

12 minutes ago, Saxon said:

Yes but they can be easily bracketed by a smart opponent. If you're running 20 man crossbow lines it takes 1 casualty to take away the double shots. Takes 1 casualty in 20 man units of anything else to remove the to hit bonuses. Kill the foot general and hold the line goes away. Units capable of doing this easily are Kroak, Rotigus, The Great Unclean One casting with line of sight. 

Having played them almost exclusively for a 6 months or so the tactics remain very similar no matter the situation because you are essentially a blob army. I love the models and its good fun shooting down unit with gunners but free guild could be so much more. 

Fair point. I tend to advocate for 2x30 handgunner lines (preference) alongside a full 40-man guard unit of whatever weapon type people feel like going, this would be great company 1. If you're feeling  extra frisky, you interlace it with a secondary great company of 30 to 40 militia alongside 2x10 peasants (sacrificial guards), and keep the two 10-man peasant blobs lined up accross the front of your big 40-man guard unit from company 1. Which, y'know, will give you a lot of leeway towards dominating the infantry fight. Ally in a cannon or two, plus a potential gunmaster, and you got yourself a pew pew line. But you have more practical experience than me with that, so it's probably not as solid as I imagine it to be. Their static playstyle does open them up to things like Kroak, Rotigus and Great Unclean One, as you say - but they should have a solid fighting chance against a vast chunk of the rest of the competition, no? Assume people actually position their general properly for that hypothetical question to have any merit, since if we don't, then we can just discard it with "yeah, but their general can die" -- Gotta play it the skaven way. Lead from the back, stay out of sight, and sacrifice a goat to avoid Kroak.

Absolutely agree that they could be more. Hoping they get some love this year A free cities book or something along those lines. Wouldn't mind facing a proper freeguild army like that.

[Gotrek]

5 minutes ago, Saxon said:

Yes but they can be easily bracketed by a smart opponent. If you're running 20 man crossbow lines it takes 1 casualty to take away the double shots. Takes 1 casualty in 20 man units of anything else to remove the to hit bonuses. Kill the foot general and hold the line goes away. Units capable of doing this easily are Kroak, Rotigus, The Great Unclean One casting with line of sight. 

Having played them almost exclusively for a 6 months or so the tactics remain very similar no matter the situation because you are essentially a blob army. I love the models and its good fun shooting down unit with gunners but free guild could be so much more. 

thats why you run units of 30, so you can take 11 losses before you stop the bonus. just like how khorne players ran bloodletters in units of 30 when they only need 20 for the hit bonus.

secondly, no kroak cant do that. range on his spell is 10" and balewind only ups it by 6" to a max of 16".  GUO's range is only 14". rotigus i will concede the point on since that just requires visibility.  honestly, the stormcast comet would be the bigger threat but that is not a flaw exclusive to freeguild (bloodsecrator only has 5 wounds as well and is pretty essential, nighthaunt heroes, vampires, hag queens. every one is susceptible to MW sniping ).

 

[Saxon]

1 minute ago, Mayple said:

Fair point. I tend to advocate for 2x30 handgunner lines (preference) alongside a full 40-man guard unit of whatever weapon type people feel like going, this would be great company 1. If you're feeling  extra frisky, you interlace it with a secondary great company of 30 to 40 militia alongside 2x10 peasants (sacrificial guards), and keep the two 10-man peasant blobs lined up accross the front of your big 40-man guard unit from company 1. Which, y'know, will give you a lot of leeway towards dominating the infantry fight. Ally in a cannon or two, plus a potential gunmaster, and you got yourself a pew pew line. But you have more practical experience than me with that, so it's probably not as solid as I imagine it to be. Their static playstyle does open them up to things like Kroak, Rotigus and Great Unclean One, as you say - but they should have a solid fighting chance against a vast chunk of the rest of the competition, no? Assume people actually position their general properly for that hypothetical question to have any merit, since if we don't, then we can just discard it with "yeah, but their general can die" -- Gotta play it the skaven way. Lead from the back, stay out of sight, and sacrifice a goat to avoid Kroak.

Absolutely agree that they could be more. Hoping they get some love this year A free cities book or something along those lines. Wouldn't mind facing a proper freeguild army like that.

Yeh i do the same but in order to be really competitive, I have to pretty much run the same list every time and hope the opponent casts poorly. Free guild cannot deal well with mortal wounds.

I play in a small group of 5 or 6 players who have played my varying lists enough to know what to do to combat it. I think FG lack a bit of variation (given how utterly terribly the cavalry is for what they cost) and could do with some love. 

[Saxon]

2 minutes ago, Gotrek said:

thats why you run units of 30, so you can take 11 losses before you stop the bonus. just like how khorne players ran bloodletters in units of 30 when they only need 20 for the hit bonus.

secondly, no kroak cant do that. range on his spell is 10" and balewind only ups it by 6" to a max of 16".  GUO's range is only 14". rotigus i will concede the point on since that just requires visibility.  honestly, the stormcast comet would be the bigger threat but that is not a flaw exclusive to freeguild (bloodsecrator only has 5 wounds as well and is pretty essential, nighthaunt heroes, vampires, hag queens. every one is susceptible to MW sniping ).

 

Indeed and I do that for crossbowmen and gunners but it limits the list variation. That's where i'm going with this discussion. Lack of love from GW makes a pure FG list a bit plain and one-dimensional. 

As for Kroak, i didn't think comets call had a range unless it's been FAQ'd? 

The Great Unclean One spell i'm referring to is Plague Squall. I don't believe it has a range?

[Mayple]

2 minutes ago, Saxon said:

As for Kroak, i didn't think comets call had a range unless it's been FAQ'd? 

The Great Unclean One spell i'm referring to is Plague Squall. I don't believe it has a range?

You're correct. Both of those are global.

Sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night, screaming out Kroak's name. He's my boogeyman

[Gotrek]

4 minutes ago, Saxon said:

Indeed and I do that for crossbowmen and gunners but it limits the list variation. That's where i'm going with this discussion. Lack of love from GW makes a pure FG list a bit plain and one-dimensional. 

As for Kroak, i didn't think comets call had a range unless it's been FAQ'd? 

The Great Unclean One spell i'm referring to is Plague Squall. I don't believe it has a range?

apologies, usually when people complain about kroak its his celestial deliverance spell. i forgot about the comet. is plague squall one from the book? its not on his warscroll. plague wind is but its 14".

for list variations, sadly most armies are locked into that (witch aelf bricks w/ hagg nar for DoK, zilfin alpha strike for KO, etc) when they want to perform at their highest.