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CanHammer-darren

Black coach experiences?

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46 minutes ago, CanHammer-darren said:

Anyone have experience so far with black coach? I wanna play it since model rocks

I havent played with it yet but I feel that you need to play around it a bit to make it worth its pts. For example, if you are bringing d3 chainwrasps back with it each turn, that is a big waste. However, if you are bringing back D3 spirit hosts or revenants or other more valuable models the it quickly becomes efficient.

One thing that really bugs me is that it didnt get the hero keyword like the legion black coach has. It is just a fancy mounted wraith after all. 

 

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On 9/7/2018 at 10:20 AM, themortalgod said:

I havent played with it yet but I feel that you need to play around it a bit to make it worth its pts. For example, if you are bringing d3 chainwrasps back with it each turn, that is a big waste. However, if you are bringing back D3 spirit hosts or revenants or other more valuable models the it quickly becomes efficient.

One thing that really bugs me is that it didnt get the hero keyword like the legion black coach has. It is just a fancy mounted wraith after all. 

 

That is so that we don't have to use it in our overcrowded leader slots.

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In my limited experience playing against it, I have found it to be very underwhelming.  In both games against it (one local, one at Siegeworld 2018), pushing a unit or two of my spirit hosts into it early took it out of the game.  I have not observed how it does against non-Nighthaunt opponents, but so far I haven't seen enough to want to include one in my army.

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12 minutes ago, Nevar said:

That is so that we don't have to use it in our overcrowded leader slots.

I think he meant having the HERO keyword but not being a leader. Though how many other models have that?

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8 minutes ago, kenshin620 said:

I think he meant having the HERO keyword but not being a leader. Though how many other models have that?

None that I can think of.

Personally I don't really like using the Black Coach, and while I respect how awesome the model is in comparison to the old one, a horse drawn coach isn't my idea of a battle vehicle.  The lore also does not mesh super well with the story behind my Nighthaunt, and I already converted the necromancer on my Mortis Engine into a Cairn Wraith so it could be a counts as Black Coach back before we got the new model.

At the end of the day, all I want from the Black Coach is the attendant ghosts that are floating around it for conversion purposes.

Edited by Nevar

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9 hours ago, kenshin620 said:

I think he meant having the HERO keyword but not being a leader. Though how many other models have that?

I meant so that it could be general and/or given magic items. ;) I love the idea of the coach using the NH command ability to draw other ghosts to it. Cool thematic hero. But alas. 

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I have played with it a couple of times. My biggest isue turned out to be the physical model itself on the table, due to the horses taking too much space in the front of the base, I was at times completely unable to get the model in base contact due to intervening terrain features.

 

When I could actually get it in combat, it did alright, with with 12 wounds and the first power level healiung 1d3 wounds per turn, it is durable and a big annoyance. Offensively it can be very hit and miss, the first turns can swing wildly depending on your luck with the 3 dice to determine power vel. Getting 0 4+ on turn 1 is a huge problem, as it will likely not gets near its full potential.

 

On the other hand I had a game where I got it to power level 5 in turn 2, after getting 3 in turn 1, that was huge. I also got a 10+ charge of on some Kurnoth hunters and obliterated them pretty much due to that and mortal wounds from charge, wraith and spirits hosts with 2 combat phases basically.

Its hardly a waste of points, but I feel it needs a fair bit of luck and also needs to be in position to use the 1d3 heal aura on worthwhile units, or it will have big problems earning home the price tag. 8 4+/4+ horse attacks, a cairn wraith basically and 1,5 spirit host en offensive power for 280 is a big price tag as well, so everything must come together.

 

TLDR: Great model, great centerpiece in an army with lots of little 1 wound things, mediocre offensive power, good staying power, needs to maximize all benefits to be worth the pricetag and a bit of luck as well.

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I think inside it battalion, it is worth a look. 
As it has a higher likelihood of getting the double hit, you have to take Hex wraiths, so it is bringing back more value. 
And its game plan early to to res your guys, shoot with your ranged attack, and help scatter their small units they will use to hold objectives.

Then bring back around late game to do work. 

I think throwing it into combat early is a mistake. 

Ideally you will also have Cogs available, and even the artifact of plus 3" move.
That way you can shot over their lines, run and charge etc right into their backlines to get at things normally not getable. 

at max wounds that is 14"+3+2+d6+2+2D6  so on average 30inch threat

 

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1 hour ago, knightish said:

I think inside it battalion, it is worth a look. 
As it has a higher likelihood of getting the double hit, you have to take Hex wraiths, so it is bringing back more value. 
And its game plan early to to res your guys, shoot with your ranged attack, and help scatter their small units they will use to hold objectives.

Then bring back around late game to do work. 

I think throwing it into combat early is a mistake. 

Ideally you will also have Cogs available, and even the artifact of plus 3" move.
That way you can shot over their lines, run and charge etc right into their backlines to get at things normally not getable. 

at max wounds that is 14"+3+2+d6+2+2D6  so on average 30inch threat

 

Not sure how I feel about the shooting attack honestly. I think the scythe might be the better option, especially if you want the coach to get stuck in.

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27 minutes ago, CanHammer-darren said:

Gotta day. Not having played it. The fact the front and back of the model overhang by so much seems like an issue to me

Personally, my plan is to use the old model and do a heavy conversion job to make it suitable as the new black coach on the bigger base, however, mine wont be overhanging nearly as much. ;)

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Like most on this thread, rules wise I find it a bit meh, model wise is awesome. 

It's a shame that it's our only big monsterous gribbly of a model (mourngul with it's current warscroll doesn't count ?), I was hoping for something that could go toe to toe with some of the other units in the game with the monster keyword, but it just doesn't do it. 

Like a lot of other elements of our spooky army, it is not a consistent unit, it has no guarantee of being able to perform well every time in every game, it's a gamble unit and if you're running it then take the riders battalion and spam hexwraiths. Make the entire army a fast moving calvery army and hope that you can get some 9+ on the charge. 

With regards to the model hanging over the edge, I'm currently converting mine to have the 4 horses side by side so that it's not hanging off the base at all. It's been a nightmare as the horses are all connected together but it's getting there. 

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On 9/7/2018 at 4:20 AM, themortalgod said:

 bringing d3 chainwrasps back with it each turn, that is a big waste. However, if you are bringing back D3 spirit hosts or revenants or other more valuable models the it quickly becomes efficient.

 

 

Are there three versions?  I know the legion one doesn’t res models/heal.  I skimmed the rules in the box, didn’t see it there, either.  

 

I’m also confused by the talk of 4+ to gain power levels.  I see 6+ per caster in legion, a flat one level per turn in the box...

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4 hours ago, march10k said:

Are there three versions?  I know the legion one doesn’t res models/heal.  I skimmed the rules in the box, didn’t see it there, either.  

 

I’m also confused by the talk of 4+ to gain power levels.  I see 6+ per caster in legion, a flat one level per turn in the box...

The Nighthaunt one does the healing.

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22 minutes ago, themortalgod said:

The Nighthaunt one does the healing.

So, 3 versions...legion, box, and nighthaunt?  Are we free to use any of the three in a sacrament list?  Are the points costs the same?

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12 minutes ago, march10k said:

So, 3 versions...legion, box, and nighthaunt?  Are we free to use any of the three in a sacrament list?  Are the points costs the same?

There are two, one in the nighthaunt book and the old one that is in the legion of nagash book. They are completely different and have different rules and points costs. Yes, you can run the nighthaunt one as an ally in sacrament. 

As an aside, I don't expect for the Legion of Nagash coach to have a future. It is an old metal model that is about 20 years old that GW doesn't sell anymore. (It is one of, if not the oldest model that has rules currently in the latest edition of its respective army book) I was actually really surprised that it even got printed in LoN, I'd be willing to bet it won't get printed again.  (And like all the other old metal models that got rules in LoN, it is not very good on the table for the pts it costs)

Edited by themortalgod

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Okay, but what you're describing in terms of what is in the Nighthaunt book doesn't match the rules in the new model's box.  So there are three different scrolls?  And are they all the same points?  The nighthaunt one sounds more powerful than the legion one.  I have to assume it costs more?  In which case taking the cheap legion version makes sense.  Either it looks really scary because it's assumed to be the more expensive/better nighthaunt one, and serves as a nice bit of bait, or it gets ignored because it's inferior and ends up doing something useful...

 

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8 minutes ago, march10k said:

Okay, but what you're describing in terms of what is in the Nighthaunt book doesn't match the rules in the new model's box.  So there are three different scrolls?  And are they all the same points?  The nighthaunt one sounds more powerful than the legion one.  I have to assume it costs more?  In which case taking the cheap legion version makes sense.  Either it looks really scary because it's assumed to be the more expensive/better nighthaunt one, and serves as a nice bit of bait, or it gets ignored because it's inferior and ends up doing something useful...

 

The one in the box is a misprint. The warscroll cards, book, and website all match, so that is the correct version.

The Legions Coach is quite a bit cheaper (120 vs 280), and is not a behemoth.

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I've had mixed experiences, first game I played, it got to power level 3 on turn 1 and then rolled 11 on the charge between the impact hits it gets from the power level and attacking twice it wiped out a unit of namarti without taking any damage. problem was that it then got surrounded by enemy units and I didn't retreat which was a big mistake. and it was destroyed turn 2. From my experience it needs either support, as in a line of hexwraiths to keep it from getting surrounded or to use a very hit hand run approach.

The strat I'd like to test would be using the spectral summons command ability to pull it out of combat then potentially charge again that same turn.

The key is definitely waiting on the power level to be at least 3 before charging. Every time I've rushed in before that the results have been underwhelming.

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On 9/14/2018 at 5:41 PM, AverageBoss said:

Not sure how I feel about the shooting attack honestly. I think the scythe might be the better option, especially if you want the coach to get stuck in.

That is fair. I thought the same for a while. But after playing it, it pigeonholes the coach to being a melee monster. 
This way you get to at least harass with mortal wounds before going in later game. 

Also you can shoot while in combat at the unit you are in combat with, then melee with that same attack again in the combat phase, so it effectively becomes 2, 3+/3+ D3 mortal wounds in Melee on top of the impact hits etc etc

Re-rolling 1's for attacks help with consistency etc for that too. 
 

I think the biggest weakness this model has is when you over commit it. 
If you over commit it to a large unit etc it will die and not give back what you need. 

Keep it back and use to to harass and res your high wound summon-able units or even just add more back to say a 30 block of reapers. Until Turn 2/3.
Then smashing it into half strength units you will start to do real work both value wise as well as just VP wise. 

I think this is not the beat stick monster. If you want a beatstick for a Morngul. 
This is a Utility piece, that can lay down some smack later in the game, and pre-that help with maintain a solid front line, and a bit of harrassing. 

Don't forget, that MASSIVE base can be use to screen a unit that you NEED to now take a charge from X too. 
The flying speed 19 (with cogs and tricket) can get you where you need to be to prevent the counter charge from hell too. 

Sometimes I think in this game we get caught in the "how quickly can I kill the Sh*t out of everything" tactic and forget we are playing for board control and this guys gives us heaps of flexbility there. Just don't plan on this guy kill the world for you, that is what 30 reapers are for :P

my 2c :)

Will definitely write back more once I have had a few more games with him :)

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I made the mistake of being so caught up in painting and building my model, that when I get it into play my opponent (who really plays the movement game to the max) mostly denies me to actually touch anything with the base, as the model itself sticks out far too much in front. Only other option is to fly it backwards, but it still sticks out a bit there, so can't ever do a frontal charge into anything.

 

It is at a point now, where everyone are so aware of this, they can deny it doing jsut about anything due to the model, but I don't want to disassemble it either, as it is not an easy model to put together and balance, but at the same time I can hardly play with it.

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I really think it would have been better suited on a rectangular base. 

GW needs to faq it as i keep hearing about how much the horses stick out and its affects on gameplay.  ?

Gorgeous sculpt though. 

I was hoping for some kind of hero delivery system rules but oh well. 

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