What niches do you feel destruction has trouble filling?

[WindstormSCR]

I was pondering more Mixed Destro lists today since my BCR are rapidly becoming something of the local boogeyman and I'd rather not get that reputation if I can avoid it, and while I was digging through the various factions I noticed that there appear to be some very useful niches that Destruction should really have the ability to fill, but just... doesn't.

For example and to start this discussion I'll say that as far as I can tell we really lack a high-quality "anvil unit" think something like Ironbreakers or Phoenix Guard. Ardboys and Ironguts come close-ish, but while they have the base save they really lack other methods of ignoring rend or save after saves that make those two stand out. both Death and Chaos have similar units, it just appears to be destruction that is lacking something of that style.

The purpose of this discussion is to figure out where the unused design space is for destruction, and perhaps eventually serve as a catalyst for new ways to think about army construction.

[PlasticCraic]

I think the closest thing we have to a tank unit would be the Moonclan spearmen.  They have a high number of wounds and with the Bad Moon icon can be pretty durable against shooting.  And you can also add in Fanatics for charge blocking...although they are getting very expensive by that stage.

We lack:

- Battleline options 

- Keyword Synergy.  Order has a lot of Order-wide buffs, Death is largely one big happy family and Chaos has Marks coming out the whazoo

- Batallions

- Battletomes

- Critical Mass.  It's been over 2 years since we last got a book, and there has only been one meaningful release of new units (Ironjawz) since AOS dropped

- Summoning

- Lore

[PlasticCraic]

Also:

- Modernised warscrolls (e.g. GW didn't update the Grot artillery to be a single unit in line with the Ballista)

- Prayers (we are the only GA with literally zero Priest keywords, let alone an actual prayer lore)

- Movement shenanigans (very little deep striking, zero redeploying out of combat)

Those are the areas where we've been neglected off the top of my head.

 

[PlasticCraic]

Oh and scenery (Wyldwoods, Gnarlmaws, Boats etc).  We don't have any of that either.

Or unique Endless Spells, but that's a very new thing and only SC and Nighthaunt have that so far.  That's design space for the whole game I guess - although it does apply to Destruction too.

[froo]

Only thing I can think of that @PlasticCraic didn't mention above is expanded Spell Lores. I expect if we see a moonclan tome though, that will change.

 

I think it's just a matter of waiting.

 

[WindstormSCR]

For battleline, I think the only real disparity we have with other general GA battlelines is no good cavalry option, the others seem mostly to par even if few in number. Grot wolf riders would be a good addition to the list and would be on rough par with things like reavers.

Most of the rest of that list I can't find much fault with, which says a lot about destruction's need for updates

 

[Malakree]

Long ranged threat, our gitmob artillery is about it which considering even ****** Khorne has Skull Cannons is a bit depressing. Especially when you look at the things Orks and Goblins had, they really missed a trick with the Gutbuster artillery options for some powerful but mobile threats.

Scrap Launcher is a good example of something which should have been solid but is instead garbage (one could say it's scrap)
Ironblaster is another good example of something which is way more swingy than it should be.

Then you have the gitmob Batteries which are both expensive and require you to take multiple to get an effect. They need to combine them into one model with the crew counting as a "mount" and then make them 1-4 unit size, the bonuses applying if there's more than one in the unit.

[froo]

I want to see a complete reimagining of Gitmob to be frank.

 

They were always the more technologically advanced of the Goblin/Grot clans and aeons have past since the destruction of the Old World, so if they managed to survive I'd like to see them advance a step or two beyond medieval weaponry.

 

I think a more junkyard/steampunkish aesthetic to match the 40k ork stuff, but with a much more fantasy lean could be cool. Having things like an Airship being the centrepiece of an army might be interesting since we know that Gitmob at least had a passing interest in taking flight with their doomdivers. Plus, it would give the 40k players access to more bitz, so would probably sell more kits that way.

[Skabnoze]

Between the diminutive Moonclan Grots and the even smaller Snotlings there are very few niches that cannot be filled.

[Malakree]

2 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

Between the diminutive Moonclan Grots and the even smaller Snotlings there are very few niches that cannot be filled.

Man I would love to see snotlings get an update.

Imagine a gitmob airship with a gitmob crew, a grot "admiral" wearing the most ridiculously huge hat and the hull covered in snotlings that it can use as a close range "shooting" attack as they rain down on enemies.

[amysrevenge]

I'm imagining Snotlings being indignant that their role in the narrative has started to be taken over by Nurglings.

[froo]

One thing that the other factions have that Destruction is missing is the Big Scary Godlike Dude.

It could be cool to see a Gorkamorka on the table.

[Malakree]

5 hours ago, froo said:

One thing that the other factions have that Destruction is missing is the Big Scary Godlike Dude.

It could be cool to see a Gorkamorka on the table.

Ours is supposed to be gordrakk but sadly he has suffered in the face of power creep.

[Donal]

On 8/3/2018 at 1:50 AM, PlasticCraic said:

I think the closest thing we have to a tank unit would be the Moonclan spearmen.  They have a high number of wounds and with the Bad Moon icon can be pretty durable against shooting.  And you can also add in Fanatics for charge blocking...although they are getting very expensive by that stage.

We lack:

- Battleline options 

- Keyword Synergy.  Order has a lot of Order-wide buffs, Death is largely one big happy family and Chaos has Marks coming out the whazoo

- Batallions

- Battletomes

- Critical Mass.  It's been over 2 years since we last got a book, and there has only been one meaningful release of new units (Ironjawz) since AOS dropped

- Summoning

- Lore

i like how you call 2 units & 2 characters meaningful. ?

[Davros]

What we desperatly need is spell lores.

We have some pretty decent casters in destruction, but only one spell lore.

I believe with the introduction of endless spells destruction has proven it can hold it's casting up with the big boys. Now all we need are some good spells to use.

Also really should have hardboyz and destruction battleline.

 

The Next thing is a full new army, elementals would be a really good addion to destruction as a whole. Or some sort of Beastmen Rhino/Hippo/Elephant style.

[PlasticCraic]

58 minutes ago, Davros said:

Also really should have hardboyz and destruction battleline.

Totally agree with this, they are basically a worse and cheaper version of Blood Warriors, who are GA Battleline.  Since they are less elite than Blood Warriors, I don't see how they can be too elite to be GA Battleline.

[Donal]

Definitely would love hardboyz as destruction battleline. It's definitely one of the reasons I've struggled to put any paint on Ironjawz.

[I Ate A Bug]

One of the things I find really strange is that Snotlings aren't battle line.  I had to double check when I saw that on scrollbuilder, it didn't seem like it could possibly be correct.  Let's face it, the little buggers are hardly an elite unit.

 

Great, now I have the image of tiny soldiers wearing armour cobbled together from whatever was lying around at the time. They look ever so proud as well, as their banner made from an old sock pillows in the breeze.

[WindstormSCR]

one of the things I've noticed from my recent mixed destruction experiments is also a lack of a decent shooting unit that isn't artillery. I don't really count grots as they need a shaman buff to approach 'decent' and leadbelchers are just too random, short ranged and situational to give consistent results.

The closest thing we can get is stationary orruk archers, and 1/4/4/-/1 isn't exactly saying much.

[PlasticCraic]

Yeah we are generally more combat focussed.  The Grot artillery has traditionally been good although as @Donal has pointed out, Rock Lobbas aren't helped by new Lookout Sir.  They also used to be good for Damned Terrain to trigger the extra shots (no risk of killing the warmachine with D3 mortals) so they have lost out in a couple of ways.  I think Spear Chukkas are still solid, although they would be exponentially better with a modernised, unified warscroll to stop the crew getting nuked by Rain of Stars...and Wyldwoods potentially weaken them a lot.

Doom Divers can be a cheeky way to target untargettable stuff, and for Rule of Cool factor alone they have to be in the conversation!

Savage Orruk Arrowboys have finally hit the point where they are priced appropriately for their use in Kunnin Rukk - which means they are not competitively priced outside of it (imo).  They would be the closest thing to a solid standalone shooting unit in a 30 block, but I do not believe that they are not worth 420 points without the Bonesplitterz spells and double activation.

I think I am in the tiny minority of Gutbusters players to actually like Leadbelchers...but they are in no way viable as a GA option.  They are only *OK* in a Gutbusters army because they are Battleline and they can fit in with the hold and pound playstyle.  The Fat Lads also have artillery which is abysmal (1 shot hitting on 4s for 120 points).  The model is amazing and the weapon profile name "The Cannon of the Sky Titans" is one of the best in the game.  So occassionally like an idiot I have wheeled them out....their main use is that they attract more attention than they should.

The Grots (Gnoblars) in Gutbusters push out a surreal amount of dice in big blocks.  They aren't bad at the points but I hate using them because of their short range, which means you are always splitting attacks.  Counting Grots, measuring 8", agreeing how many are in range of your preferred target units, counting out 3x dice per Grot, and rolling a million dice and removing everything that isn't a 6...it is soul crushing to play.  They aren't Battleline either, but they are still a good tool for Gutbusters.

Some people like the Gobba but I can't get away with no rend...they are no joke in melee though.  A smarter player than me could probably find a good way to use them because they are such an unusual piece.

There is of course mortal wound shooting from the Thundertusk and Magma Dragon.  Of the two I think the Magma Dragon is in a better place overall, and is pretty viable.  Both can target heroes without being affected by Lookout Sir.

So overall I'm coming back to the one option you wrote off...the humble Gitmob archer!  They are quite the bargain at 270 points, and even with the cost of the obligatory Hero they are a really solid building block for Destruction armies.  Bearing in mind the Hero also gives you another shot at the 6+ Destro move, can cap objectives in the relevant Battleplans and will know a sexy Realm spell if you are using them... at 350 points, it's a very viable option overall.

I play a Destro build with 3x Spear Chukkas, 60 Grot archers with a Shammy and a Magma Dragon.  My shooting phase output can be pretty devastating.  Gitmob for crowd control and the Spear Chukkas + Magma for hero sniping.  After the first turn my opponent is often looking at massive holes in his army, scratching his head and saying "I didn't expect that to happen"...well I did ?

[PlasticCraic]

@WindstormSCR PS agreed on the Greenskinz archers, they're terribad!  I've looked at a big block to stand around a Weirdnob Shaman but every time I look at the warscroll, they are worse than I remembered.

[Remus Prime]

With summoning and spells being so important this edition, I hope the Moonclan releases will have a whole spore growing/squid birthing system.  Destruction has such a sad amount of units compared to the other factions.  

Thematically with the Realms as they are I’d love to see some new races.

[Davros]

2 hours ago, WindstormSCR said:

one of the things I've noticed from my recent mixed destruction experiments is also a lack of a decent shooting unit that isn't artillery. I don't really count grots as they need a shaman buff to approach 'decent' and leadbelchers are just too random, short ranged and situational to give consistent results.

The closest thing we can get is stationary orruk archers, and 1/4/4/-/1 isn't exactly saying much.

Don't discount the grot shooting 61 shots that are 3+ 5+ still do a surprising amount. It is heavily impacted by dice rolls but what can you do.

I have yet to get sneaky stabbing off and have not been dissapointed with them. Deffinitly worth the 270 points.

[Scurvydog]

As for movement abilities, I don't think the "deep strike" option should be a thing besides maybe for some moonclan or gitmob units. I would prefer the mighty destroyers allegiance ability, which also carries over in mostly the same form to Ironjawz, to get some kind of reliability change.

 

The 6's for other heroes than the the general/megaboss to get a move/charge/pilein i just way too random to take into account for any strategy, and even the 4+ from the general is too unreliable to plan for, it could be a nice to have, but is mostly just a source of disappointment. It would require a major change to the entire alliance, but it could be cool to work around this idea of whaagh and extra actions through boosting low bravery, like for example triggering the effect by rolling below Bravery on x d6 dice.

 

This could by default be very difficult, such as 3d6 and roll above the pretty standard 4-6 bravery of destruction units. Then heroes, command abilities could increase this chance. Having various destruction units interplay with this mechanic through the same keyword could be fun, to really emphasize the snowball effect this entire allegiance is all about.

 

This is all just brainstorming, but the overall idea is just to find some mechanic for the grand alliance that could be fun and actually have some effect and consideration needed in the actual gameplay. Another idea could be to grant bravery based buffs, so stacking bravery gives bonus effects like deepkin and DoK have, just based around another mechanic to trigger these. This way a Whaagh command ability could instead be a massive bravery increase, which would then provide both the table buffs next to the obvious advantage of high bravery when it really counts.

 

I just feel that what the destruction armies need the most are interesting gameplay mechanics, rather than individual models, as we can easily agree that we would like a lot of cool new models, but gameplay wise I think it would be a big improvement. 

If the beasts of chaos book is anything to go by, we can hope for sort of a similar book for destruction, as that book is all around a real treat for any beastmen player I think.

[Malakree]

One thing we are missing is a strong wizard. Whenever it comes to magic we are always choosing between spells or modifiers.

I don't think we have any 3 cast models, our +2 is the weirdnob with 1 cast and our only tanky wizard is the troggoth hag with no modifiers and one spell.

Every other GA gets access to at least one powerful caster, often multiple, which with all the endless spells and faction spell lists leaves us at a much larger disadvantage than it used to.