AoS 2 - Fyreslayers Discussion

[SorryLizard]

50 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

The problem with Aurics is still their 4+ to hit. Unleash Hell is probably a waste of CP when they need 5+ to hit.

At least on your turn you can spend the CP to +1 hit their shooting.

[Doko]

4 hours ago, SorryLizard said:

Wonder what they'll do with the minimum unit size 5 of Hearthguard/Aurics and how that interacts with Reinforcement? Plus, of course, conditional battleline and Reinforcement

I agree,dont know wath they gonna do with conditional battleline,if it gonna be battleline for reinforcement or not and also i dont think they gonna increase min unit of hearthguard to 10 because the box is 5, but who knows maybe they gonna do a new box with 10

[Clan's Cynic]

32 minutes ago, Doko said:

I agree,dont know wath they gonna do with conditional battleline,if it gonna be battleline for reinforcement or not and also i dont think they gonna increase min unit of hearthguard to 10 because the box is 5, but who knows maybe they gonna do a new box with 10

The existing Hearthguard box is one of the most expensive and presumably unpopular boxes they still sell. I could easily see it going up to 10 the way Grey Knight Strike Squads did.

[Joseph Mackay]

The issue with Hearthguard unit/box size is that the AoS3 rules indirectly nerfed spamming Hearthguard with the Reinforcement rules. Now instead of 3x20 you’ll see 2x15 and maybe some units of 5. If they up the box/unit size to 10, it completely undermines the nerf (although we’d all appreciate the price discount of buy 1x10 vs the current 2x5 costs). 

Hearthguard, according to the lore, are more of a bodyguard elite unit rather than the main fighting force and it’s always bothered me that spamming max Hearthguard is all anyone seems to do. Now GW are in an awkward position, because the fyreslayers model range/unit selection is so small, they can’t really apply lore based restrictions on army building (ie no Battleline Hearthguard, and max 1 limits for Runefather and Runemaster).

GW have backed Fyreslayers (and themselves) into a corner, if they don’t plan to expand the army then they have no choice but to do a Orruk Warclans style book for Duardin. If yet another Fyreslayers battletome is released without any new models, then I think that will kill the faction. It would send a message to players (intentionally or not) that the army is on life support and won’t be supported. It will drive away the people who want to get into Fyreslayers but don’t because there’s limited choices, and potentially drive away the current players of the faction. I understand GW is a business and needs to make money, but Fyreslayers are in a catch22. They’re (apparently) unpopular and have low sales, and because of that gw (seemingly) don’t want to invest more money/resources into a bad selling faction by making more units. But not having more units is a major factor in why they’re unpopular and don’t sell well 🤷‍♂️

[Doko]

I just read vince vinturella review and seems fyreslayers got another HUGE  nerf.

 

Now every priest only can chant one prayer even if know more.

Also a 1 is 1 mw

Cant chant the same prayer more than one time

 

So these are huuuuuuge nerfs for us,our priest have lost 1 prayer and have same one prayer and failll that 80 points priest(as seraphon or dok) but we cost 140.....

[SorryLizard]

Until we see the GHB points update I'd not worry too much about that. But losing out on more prayers is a big deal, especially as we don't have native casters to make use of the magic phase.

IIRC can still chant a prayer AND summon an invocation though. Runic Fyrewall still incredibly useful.

Unit sizes I think is going to be the big meta unknown. If everyone brings smaller units then smaller units on our side won't matter as much as it all sort of vaguely aligns. But if people still bring big units to do most of their fighting then we're in trouble.

Thing is that, on paper, with the buffs available, big Vulkite units are still good and 30 of them is a lot for most armies to deal with. Suffer from the coherency changes though.

[EchoHavoc]

12 hours ago, Joseph Mackay said:

The issue with Hearthguard unit/box size is that the AoS3 rules indirectly nerfed spamming Hearthguard with the Reinforcement rules. Now instead of 3x20 you’ll see 2x15 and maybe some units of 5. If they up the box/unit size to 10, it completely undermines the nerf (although we’d all appreciate the price discount of buy 1x10 vs the current 2x5 costs). 

Hearthguard, according to the lore, are more of a bodyguard elite unit rather than the main fighting force and it’s always bothered me that spamming max Hearthguard is all anyone seems to do. Now GW are in an awkward position, because the fyreslayers model range/unit selection is so small, they can’t really apply lore based restrictions on army building (ie no Battleline Hearthguard, and max 1 limits for Runefather and Runemaster).

GW have backed Fyreslayers (and themselves) into a corner, if they don’t plan to expand the army then they have no choice but to do a Orruk Warclans style book for Duardin. If yet another Fyreslayers battletome is released without any new models, then I think that will kill the faction. It would send a message to players (intentionally or not) that the army is on life support and won’t be supported. It will drive away the people who want to get into Fyreslayers but don’t because there’s limited choices, and potentially drive away the current players of the faction. I understand GW is a business and needs to make money, but Fyreslayers are in a catch22. They’re (apparently) unpopular and have low sales, and because of that gw (seemingly) don’t want to invest more money/resources into a bad selling faction by making more units. But not having more units is a major factor in why they’re unpopular and don’t sell well 🤷‍♂️

When fyreslayers first came out I remember everyone spammed vulkites. Which meant GW didn’t sell HGB or AHG as well. Then they did what they always do (there’s so many examples of this take deepkin sharks and turtles or DoK snakes) they buffed the units they weren’t selling. So now people just spam HGB.

Fyreslayers are one of the the worst selling factions in AoS. It’s just the way it is. Not only that but they are unpopular. I believe in the order section on the website they now have the most limited model range. 

I’ve been a long standing competitive Fyreslayers player and I hate how GW has treated the faction. I’m waiting to see the points values tonight (Facehammer are doing a release video on YouTube). If the points are in line with everything else I’ll continue to play them. However, if the points put us in a situation, where along with the nerf to priests, unit sizes and us lacking a clear hero/monster we are going to be weaker than ever it will be time to move on. Which is pretty sad considering GW could do so much with this army. It’s just as a tournament player I can’t wait around for GW to potentially fix us/release new models. 
 

I do however, think that from what we’ve seen so far from the releases/lore etc. GW are planning something for the dwarves. I just think that’s going to be a combined battle tome. Which I’m not a fan of. 

[Doko]

I have many armys,stormcast,city of sigmar,fyreslayers and now soulbligth.

So if fyreslayers gonna be useless as every hint of 3.0  tell us i only gonna play with other of my armys untill next battletome or edittion

[peasant]

Here they are

[Clan's Cynic]

• Runefather stayed the same.
• Runemaster went down 5pts.
• Runesmiter's the same.
• Runeson went down 10pts.
• Battlesmith went down 15pts (???)
• Runefather on Magmadroth went up 15pts.
• Runesmiter on Magmadroth went up 5pts.
• Runeson on Magmadroth went up 10pts.
• Doomseeker went up 5pts.
• Grimwrath Berzerker went up 10pts.
• Chosen Axes went down by 50pts.
   
• Hearthguard went up 5pts.
• Aurics went up 5pts.
• Vulkites went up 20pts.
   
• Molten Infernoth looks at 75.
• Runic Fyrewall went up 20pts.
• Flame-spitter's still 60pts.

So other than the Endless Spells and Vulkites, this aren't exactly the big points increases that were being made out. Hearthguard didn't go up nearly as much as people expected. There's some really weird stuff there like reducing the auto-included Battlesmith.

I suspect GW are dramatically overestimating the 'buffs' to Endless Spells when it comes to the Infernoth though - people were already ignoring it at 50pts.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Clan's Cynic

[Azamar]

20 minutes ago, peasant said:

Here they are

Given most units in the game have typically gone up 15-20 points, thus is very good for Fyreslayers- only 5 points up on both flavours of hearthguard (and the auric hearthguard are going to have a field day with all our attack and plenty of monsters encouraged) and several heroes have gone down in cost. 
 

Fyreslayers haven’t done too badly out of this I think, despite the core rules being a bit painful (no save stacking and limits on prayers in particular)

[Doko]

So vulkites that were useless at 140 got a huge 20 nerf

Every behemot other nerf even if our behemots are a joke

Our priest cost 120 when have same stats and only one prayer as 80 points priests of other armys.

No battallion

No 20 heathguards

No stacking buffs anymore(not very important now that the runemaster tax have dissapear and now that runesmitter is useless and wont be played also)

 

So all this together new coherency,redeploy and overwatch ca etc seems we are doomed.

 

Also seems magma named is umplayable  if we dont get him in faq.

Seems they are useless balancing the game,i cant believe how a useless unit as vulkites got 20 increase but a very good unit as elites zerkers got only 5.

 

New meta gonna be spam of only hearthguards seems,with some hero for the 4++ 

 

I cant believe how vulkites a unit pretty bad,and with next edition being hard with 30mm bases and only 1" reach as vulkites and they got nerfed.

 

 

[Malakithe]

Yeaaaaaah...well ******. Droths were already the worst 'hero/monsters' in the game. Im assuming all monsters went up due to all the new command stuff. 

The Vulkite change makes no sense at all.

So the new norm will be 2x15 HB? But since battalions are gone Hermdar is effectively dead.

Long live Vostarg I guess?

[Clan's Cynic]

5 hours ago, Malakithe said:

Yeaaaaaah...well ******. Droths were already the worst 'hero/monsters' in the game. Im assuming all monsters went up due to all the new command stuff. 

The Vulkite change makes no sense at all.

So the new norm will be 2x15 HB? But since battalions are gone Hermdar is effectively dead.

Long live Vostarg I guess?

I still think Hermdar is going to see the most play. 

• Battleshock immunity is more valuable than ever because Inspiring Presence can't be used multiple times.
• Fighting first in the combat phase is always good, especially now there's higher chance of taking casualties and this was why everybody took Hermdar anyway.
• -1 to wound rolls isn't very common, so it won't overlap with other "no save stacking" abilities.
• The return on the artifact tax isn't bad.

 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Clan's Cynic

[Azamar]

Only a 10 point increase for the Runeson on magmadroth is interesting for a cheap monster hero? 
 

 take the mortals on a charge mount trait (young flamescale I think) then activate finest hour and throw him at something big- d6 mortals from his command ability, plus a few more from the mount trait (especially if big numbers on the roll) and an extra d3 for monstrous rampage and go out in a blaze of glory. Ok, he’ll almost certainly die immediately (doing an average of 7 mortal wounds from bleeding as he does so) but what a way to go.
 

I won’t pretend it’s a good competitive idea but fun for a casual game

[Aeryenn]

Compare your points to other armies. Like Sylvaneth for example. Fyreslayers are amongst those armies that have the smallest increases in points. I lost 300 points on my Sylvaneth list. How much did you lose?

[Baron Klatz]

The Guerilla Miniatures playtesters are speaking well for them at least. They listed the magmadroth dropping 3D6 mortal wounds as their top monsters to watch out for in the new edition.

Going by the lore leaks from the corebook makes me feel like if a battletome is made for the Dawnbringers that'll end up a pseudo-update tome for Fyreslayers. The new lore mentions that despite Grungni's return both duardin groups are starting to turn away from him to where the Kharadron are actually listed as an Order threat to the dawners with piracy and destruction if their escort wages aren't met.

Fyreslayers on the otherhand are ironically the dawners most stalwart supporters with no mention of mercenary backstabbing for Chaos or the like.

Likely why the article pointed them out alongside the khainites. Could be a way to slowly transition into a new CoS book in the far future with new azyrite humans, Fyreslayers replacing Dispossessed and Khainites taking the Darklings place.

 

Edit: you can cry doko but ending up a realm representative sub-faction among 8 others would be a far better fate than bogging down the Kharadron's rich lore. Thank the God-king they haven't changed.

Edited June 19, 2021 by Baron Klatz

[Doko]

41 minutes ago, Aeryenn said:

Compare your points to other armies. Like Sylvaneth for example. Fyreslayers are amongst those armies that have the smallest increases in points. I lost 300 points on my Sylvaneth list. How much did you lose?

The problems arent points,we lost attack twice,blocks of 20 gone,stacking +3 saves gone and now only +1 and also our priest have lost the 50% of their utility(from 2 prayers to only 1) 

 

Every new rule is bad for fyreslayer and makes us bad this edittion.

Points dont make sense as the useless unit  got a 20 increase and the good unit got only 5 increase,but points are fine vs others armys

Edited June 19, 2021 by Doko

[Aeryenn]

35 minutes ago, Doko said:

The problems arent points,we lost attack twice,blocks of 20 gone,stacking +3 saves gone and now only +1 and also our priest have lost the 50% of their utility(from 2 prayers to only 1) 

 

Every new rule is bad for fyreslayer and makes us bad this edittion.

Points dont make sense as the useless unit  got a 20 increase and the good unit got only 5 increase,but points are fine vs others armys

Thanks. That helps me understand the problem better.

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

On 6/18/2021 at 6:20 AM, Clan's Cynic said:

I still think Hermdar is going to see the most play. 

• Battleshock immunity is more valuable than ever because Inspiring Presence can't be used multiple times.
• Fighting first in the combat phase is always good, especially now there's higher chance of taking casualties and this was why everybody took Hermdar anyway.
• -1 to wound rolls isn't very common, so it won't overlap with other "no save stacking" abilities.
• The return on the artifact tax isn't bad.

 

I was still leaning Vorstarg because I appreciate the extra mobility.  But the above combined with smaller table and not paying the battalion tax for Heroes I wasn’t fond of making space for a second tunnel Hero deployment could see me giving Hermdar a test run.  Magmadroths even less likely to get off their horde attacks a disappointment but the Hero and Monster buffs make them that much more appealing for later round mobility options I’d been relying on them for.

Looking at the new battalion options which do people think makes the most sense for Fyreslayers?

[Bonesplitterz]

1 hour ago, Baron Klatz said:

The Guerilla Miniatures playtesters are speaking well for them at least. They listed the magmadroth dropping 3D6 mortal wounds as their top monsters to watch out for in the new edition.

Sorry for the noob question as I’m fairly new with the Fyreslayers but how can Magmadroth do 3d6 MW ?

[Baron Klatz]

2 hours ago, Bonesplitterz said:

Sorry for the noob question as I’m fairly new with the Fyreslayers but how can Magmadroth do 3d6 MW ?

Here's their quote:

"Mangler Squig, Skarbrand are NOT the things to engage with. Also the Magmadroth from the Fyreslayers has a 3d6 MW shooting attack at it's lowest bracket. Can't be reckless."

Looking at it they're likely referring to the Roaring Fyrestream though that only does D6 MW's so it's either a mistake with the 3D6 targets or something new.

Looking over some stuff I wonder if it can go with "Unleash Hell" for another close range fyrestream.

 

2 hours ago, Beer & Pretzels Gamer said:

Looking at the new battalion options which do people think makes the most sense for Fyreslayers?

I'm a narrative player but Heroic Entourage looks good for all their heroes to get more command points. Looks fun to stack with the Realm of Beasts battalions and abilities for monster hunters.

Plus with the core wizard option Fyreslayers can Metamorphosis a monster hero which would be neat for a storyline on a Fyreslayer hero juiced up on too many Ur-gold runes like in the lore that turns them into berserkers able to rip a daemon prince's head off bare-handed.

[Bonesplitterz]

41 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

Here's their quote:

"Mangler Squig, Skarbrand are NOT the things to engage with. Also the Magmadroth from the Fyreslayers has a 3d6 MW shooting attack at it's lowest bracket. Can't be reckless."

Looking at it they're likely referring to the Roaring Fyrestream though that only does D6 MW's so it's either a mistake with the 3D6 targets or something

That guy just looked at the table and saw 3d6 and assume it’s was the damage? 😂😂😂

[Baron Klatz]

Haha, it looks like it. Min-max eyes only see the numbers, not the fluff side that the Magmadroth is roaring in pain and it's fyrestream is becoming more erratic allowing heroes and monster hunter warbands easier times to dodge the magma than a full force could.

That aside the Realm of Beasts focus is looking good for them. Hopefully next year we'll jump to Aqshy to give Fyreslayers a bigger boost on the hometurf amongst the lava and ash realmscapes.

[Malakithe]

Yeah if Droths were dropping 3D6 MW then they would be all over the place lol but those guys often get stuff wrong anyway

Edited June 20, 2021 by Malakithe