AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[robinlvalentine]

4 hours ago, Black Blade said:

I'm a Stormcast player, I want to say that upfront because I have a bit of an issue with the way the faction has been handled and I wanted to get some other opinions. I feel like their line is already bloated and in some cases redundant. I can't think of a model that I don't think looks cool with the SC. They essentially have 3 armies with (in my opinion) negligable variation shoved into 1 faction. 

Between Liberators,  Hunters and Sequitors you've got a battle line unit repeated three times over. One of these could have been SC and the other two could have been designed as another Order faction. Same with cav options. You got ones on dragons ones on dragon cats and ones on bird horses. All very cool but also a little redundant. This isn't to say they are precisely the same thing but they represent an interesting monstrous cav unit and the other two or even one could have been used (as a concept) for something like Freeguild for example. 

I'm just concerned that one faction being so dense between lords and units will have some oppressive effects on the games development. What are your thoughts?

Stormcast are the poster children of the game. They provide an easy ramp in for new players, and (obviously) tick a lot of the same boxes as 40k's Space Marines, an army so popular that it used to outsell the entire Warhammer Fantasy range put together. The starter set further ensures a huge amount of players with at least the beginnings of a Stormcast army who might potentially buy more, and that it's one of the cheapest armies around for anyone who wants to quickly build up a force. They can also ally with anyone in Order, which is by far the largest and presumably most popular faction, so loads of players can justify just getting a couple of units of them here and there. 

So, naturally, GW plays favourites. From a business perspective it makes sense to make the Stormcast range as broad as it can possibly be. You like tough paladins? They've got them. You like agile rangers? They've got them. You like brainy wizards? They've got them. Ultimately, the Vanguard and Sacroscant will sell significantly more than if they were separate ranger and wizard factions, and they enable GW to put very different starter sets on sale while still having the system's mascots front and centre.

Is it a shame to see one faction get so much more attention than any other? Yeah. But ultimately this is how GW has decided to sustain Age Of SIgmar financially, and it's clearly working in a way nothing did for Warhammer Fantasy towards its end. The realities of that business decision have been clear for years now, and I do think it gets a bit pointless how many people continue to complain about it. We know exactly why it's happening, and it's not going to stop happening any time soon, so it's just part of what Age Of Sigmar is, for better or worse. 

I think the relative newness of Age Of Sigmar does make the problem more obvious than it would be otherwise. In 40k, when Space Marines get yet another new release, at least your neglected army of Dark Eldar or Orks or whatever still has decades of models and lore behind it. In AOS, where even major new factions like the Kharadron only have a few models to choose from, it feels more galling. As the other factions get fleshed out more, I think it'll be less of an issue.

As a side note - there's no way this is stopping any time soon. I'll eat my hat if they don't continue doing Stormcast releases every few years between now and eternity, until the faction's just as bloated as Space Marines. They're already laying the groundwork now for Stormhosts to become like Space Marine chapters, with more and more variation between them, to justify Stormhost-specific model and book releases.

[Black Blade]

1 hour ago, Kugane said:

I think the new chamber stuff has a really nice aesthetic though and I am currently doing lots of conversions with the new models, but I personally would have preferred something like the sequitors just being liberators with a new chamber look and special rules coming from a chamber you take rather than an entirely new unit. Similar to how there are different looking space marines, whom essentially do the same thing, just look different.

When the Sacrosanct Chamber was released I said "ah this is what Stormcast should have been from the start." Pepper in the Extremis Chamber and I dont think you need much of anything else. Maybe some of the other heroes but that's a well rounded and distinct faction. A lot of the initial ideas could have been incorporated into other factions. Just think how much more AOS could be fleshed out if the concepts/designs of the Vanguard and initial releases were used to make 2 new non SC factions. 

[Freejack02]

7 hours ago, DanielFM said:

I disagree about  Castigators being a waste of points. Properly buffed (Evocators+LA CA) they can be quite strong, delivering 4 wounds to a 4+ save VS 2,47 from bow Judicators. Yeah, that's a perfect storm with a lot of investment thrown together, but they are not a waste of points IMHO they just aren't as point and click as Judicators.

I'm curious why my damage numbers are different - Judicators are correct but 6 Castigators (assuming rr hits of 1, rr all wounds, and rend -2) come out to 3.57 vs a 4+ save. 1 Prime and 5 troops, correct? 

The fact is you are assuming a successful spell cast AND a command ability to reach these numbers, and they're still less range than Judicators (18" vs 24") without qualifying as battleline. Command abilities are important - far too important to waste... not to mention you can't Empower if you deploy them via Scions. Investing 2 buffs for a return of 1.1 damage is extremely poor. I'd rather have independent Judicators any day, and save my spells and command abilities for something more important (Sequitors). 

[Kugane]

1 hour ago, Black Blade said:

When the Sacrosanct Chamber was released I said "ah this is what Stormcast should have been from the start." Pepper in the Extremis Chamber and I dont think you need much of anything else. Maybe some of the other heroes but that's a well rounded and distinct faction. A lot of the initial ideas could have been incorporated into other factions. Just think how much more AOS could be fleshed out if the concepts/designs of the Vanguard and initial releases were used to make 2 new non SC factions. 

I agree. I also realize that GW despite saying they are a miniature company first and a game company second and dont have time to balance stuff, it is starting to be quite obvious that they balance stuff to push sales. It is a bit of a system where they force people to buy new stuff by making older stuff obsolete... or even make new stuff obsolete the moment you buy it. Like soul wars now: incomplete units are one thing, and can be fixed with supplement purchases,  but it does irritate me that the sequitors and evocators for example are armed with their worst weapon options, it isnt a huge difference, but a difference nontheless. Newer players who buy into this stuff will have to replace their sequitors if they want to become competitive or, like I did, be able to convert them.  I think this kind of move on GW side is intentional. 

I personally have been waiting for a viable stealth army that works with some guerilla tactics and I wish Vanguard would have been a faction of their own for that reason. With the new battletome, most vanguard stuff is now obsolete, the damage output just isnt enough compared to other stuff and we cannot create a damage bomb with palladors like Idoneth do with eels either.

 

[Richelieu]

7 minutes ago, Kugane said:

Newer players who buy into this stuff will have to replace their sequitors if they want to become competitive

This is an extreme exaggeration.  If you're running a block of 20 sequitors, it's usually going to be difficult to get anything but your 9 great maces in range to attack.  And if it's a small unit, the difference in damage output is so miniscule as to be irrelevant.  I would posit that there will never, in the entire lifecycle of AoS, be a game that is decided based on Sequitor weapon selection.

[DanielFM]

31 minutes ago, Freejack02 said:

I'm curious why my damage numbers are different - Judicators are correct but 6 Castigators (assuming rr hits of 1, rr all wounds, and rend -2) come out to 3.57 vs a 4+ save. 1 Prime and 5 troops, correct? 

The fact is you are assuming a successful spell cast AND a command ability to reach these numbers, and they're still less range than Judicators (18" vs 24") without qualifying as battleline. Command abilities are important - far too important to waste... not to mention you can't Empower if you deploy them via Scions. Investing 2 buffs for a return of 1.1 damage is extremely poor. I'd rather have independent Judicators any day, and save my spells and command abilities for something more important (Sequitors). 

Sh*t, I calculated reroll all misses, sorry!

If you use Soulstrike you can shoot twice when they drop then be buffed by Evocators next turn.

I understand your arguments, though.

11 minutes ago, Kugane said:

I agree. I also realize that GW despite saying they are a miniature company first and a game company second and dont have time to balance stuff, it is starting to be quite obvious that they balance stuff to push sales. It is a bit of a system where they force people to buy new stuff by making older stuff obsolete... or even make new stuff obsolete the moment you buy it. Like soul wars now: incomplete units are one thing, and can be fixed with supplement purchases,  but it does irritate me that the sequitors and evocators for example are armed with their worst weapon options, it isnt a huge difference, but a difference nontheless. Newer players who buy into this stuff will have to replace their sequitors if they want to become competitive or, like I did, be able to convert them.  I think this kind of move on GW side is intentional. 

I personally have been waiting for a viable stealth army that works with some guerilla tactics and I wish Vanguard would have been a faction of their own for that reason. With the new battletome, most vanguard stuff is now obsolete, the damage output just isnt enough compared to other stuff and we cannot create a damage bomb with palladors like Idoneth do with eels either.

 

Vanguard is not obsolete, it's cheaper and stronger than ever and even synergize with some new units.

[Kugane]

8 hours ago, DanielFM said:

I disagree about  Castigators being a waste of points. Properly buffed (Evocators+LA CA) they can be quite strong, delivering 4 wounds to a 4+ save VS 2,47 from bow Judicators. Yeah, that's a perfect storm with a lot of investment thrown together, but they are not a waste of points IMHO they just aren't as point and click as Judicators.

They only deal 2.21 per 100 points in damage fully buffed without a soulstrike battalion, judicators 1.29 damage per 100p. So fully buffed they are indeed better, but they are not battleline like judicators and thats their big selling point. Raptors on the other hand are also not battleline and deal 2 to 2.4 damage per 100p unbuffed depending on the build, especially the hurricane outclass them in terms of damage because of that. And those 2 units are outclassed yet again by ballistas in 18" range (2.44 for unbuffed ballistas I think). So considering we need to invest so much to make castigators work, and they perform even worse in bigger units since the prime makes the unit semi good, it just makes it not worth it. Even when adding the soulstrike battalion you can buff them to insane damage, but when you add up all the unit tax and costs their damage combined is like 2 damage per 100p spent, again not efficients. Of course those are just small % differences, but I personally will just go with raptors for deepstrike and ballistas for regular deployment. Castigators are great to have units on the fiels to allow more expensive stuff to deepstrike though.

Edited July 22, 2018 by Kugane

[Richelieu]

@DanielFM I am in complete agreement with you about Soulstrike.  People are going to be caught out hard by 32+ rend 2, 3+ 3+ ranged attacks.  If you go all in, it is totally reasonable to kill Nagash in one shooting phase.  

[Freejack02]

1 minute ago, Richelieu said:

@DanielFM I am in complete agreement with you about Soulstrike.  People are going to be caught out hard by 32+ rend 2, 3+ 3+ ranged attacks.  If you go all in, it is totally reasonable to kill Nagash in one shooting phase.  

Can you give me an example list? Doesn't need to be complete, just the relevant moving parts would be great. I'm still having a trouble seeing it be terribly more effective than other options. 

[Freejack02]

20 minutes ago, Kugane said:

They only deal 2.21 per 100 points in damage fully buffed without a soulstrike battalion, judicators 1.29 damage per 100p.

How? If you're assuming a 4+ save for the target, the damage disparity vs 160 points of Castigators (buffed with Empower + LA CA) and 160 points of Judicators is 1.1 dmg (3.57 vs 2.57). Adjusted to 100 points, that's ~2.22 C vs  ~1.60 J. 

Different assumptions or unit sizes?

Edited July 22, 2018 by Freejack02

[Richelieu]

14 minutes ago, Freejack02 said:

Can you give me an example list? Doesn't need to be complete, just the relevant moving parts would be great. I'm still having a trouble seeing it be terribly more effective than other options. 

Here is an example list.  I think it will require lots of play testing to find the best configuration.  This one is an Anvils list and its sole goal is to obliterate the opponent in two turns.  

Turn one it will drop and get the battalion bonus, turn two you shoot three times in the hero phase.  Remember that castigators are much more durable than Vanguard raptors, and more than twice as good as judicators in melee.  Your positing is going to be about killing a key target and defending your big unit against a counterattack so they can triple shoot with anvils.  Your heroes, hunters and judicators are utility.

[Kugane]

23 minutes ago, Richelieu said:

This is an extreme exaggeration.  If you're running a block of 20 sequitors, it's usually going to be difficult to get anything but your 9 great maces in range to attack.  And if it's a small unit, the difference in damage output is so miniscule as to be irrelevant.  I would posit that there will never, in the entire lifecycle of AoS, be a game that is decided based on Sequitor weapon selection.

I am talking from a pure competitive setting and more of a small unit point of view. When there is a 3.7% for sequitors and 5.2% for evocators damage difference in a unit, it isn't much, however those numbers are alot more than what I consider irrelevant. 0.1% I would consider irrelevant or 0.5%, but not 5.2%. I don't know about you, but I have played plenty of games (not just in AOS of course) where 1 damage would have made a huge difference. Surely AOS is about having fun, and it won't make a huge differrence, but competitively if nearly half an army worth of points that isn't fighting optimally, I am sure it makes a difference.

[DanielFM]

22 minutes ago, Kugane said:

 Even when adding the soulstrike battalion you can buff them to insane damage, but when you add up all the unit tax and costs their damage combined is like 2 damage per 100p spent, again not efficients. Of course those are just small % differences, but I personally will just go with raptors for deepstrike and ballistas for regular deployment. Castigators are great to have units on the fiels to allow more expensive stuff to deepstrike though.

I don't really think it works like that, though. Unit tax? Vanguards Hunters and the Ballista are units working by themselves (better or worse). You can't factor them in the damage per point. Likewise, a significant part of the battalion price goes into the artifact and extra CP, so dividing 120 points by the number of Castigators to calculate their damage doesn't make much sense either.

[Kugane]

11 minutes ago, DanielFM said:

I don't really think it works like that, though. Unit tax? Vanguards Hunters and the Ballista are units working by themselves (better or worse). You can't factor them in the damage per point. Likewise, a significant part of the battalion price goes into the artifact and extra CP, so dividing 120 points by the number of Castigators to calculate their damage doesn't make much sense either.

Adding up all the damage the hunters, ballista and castigator can do combined, you will end up with roughly 2 damage per 100 points spent for everything. This is including the hunter unit set up already and likely unable to do anything, so if you exclude that, it will be even lower. The extra CP and artifact is great, but I think more raptors or ballistas will give you more overall bang for your buck than to fit in castigators, your only real benefit would be the extra artifact, so unless you run a pure vanguard list, its a bit of a waste of points.

[DanielFM]

13 minutes ago, Richelieu said:

Here is an example list.  I think it will require lots of play testing to find the best configuration.  This one is an Anvils list and its sole goal is to obliterate the opponent in two turns.  

Turn one it will drop and get the battalion bonus, turn two you shoot three times in the hero phase.  Remember that castigators are much more durable than Vanguard raptors, and more than twice as good as judicators in melee.  Your positing is going to be about killing a key target and defending your big unit against a counterattack so they can triple shoot with anvils.  Your heroes, hunters and judicators are utility.

Nice list! Kudos for thinking outside of the box.

Maybe a LAoT instead of the Celestant Prime to bennefit from the +1 to hit and buffing spells?

[Richelieu]

8 minutes ago, DanielFM said:

Nice list! Kudos for thinking outside of the box.

Maybe a LAoT instead of the Celestant Prime to bennefit from the +1 to hit and buffing spells?

I considered this, but the command points are better spent using the anvils hero phase shoot.  CP is also much more capable as a stand alone unit, clearing objectives of small units and contributing to the overwhelming ranged firepower.  

[DanielFM]

8 minutes ago, Richelieu said:

I considered this, but the command points are better spent using the anvils hero phase shoot.  CP is also much more capable as a stand alone unit, clearing objectives of small units and contributing to the overwhelming ranged firepower.  

He doesn't need CP, though! 

[Freejack02]

10 minutes ago, Richelieu said:

I considered this, but the command points are better spent using the anvils hero phase shoot.  CP is also much more capable as a stand alone unit, clearing objectives of small units and contributing to the overwhelming ranged firepower.  

If no LA for the command ability, I think an Azyros would be justified to get the reroll 1's to hit along with -2 rend - considering the entire list is built around deleting priority targets immediately.

I didn't consider investing so much into Castigators, I'll admit the battalion benefits are extremely nice when loaded with 27 or 30 of them! Also having 2 large blocks sort of FAQ-proofs the list in cast CAs are clarified to not allow stacking on a single unit. I might even increase both blocks to max size (18) and cut from elsewhere.

[Manxs]

Hey guys how dose the celestant prime prime rules for holding in reserve work? cause i find the wording a bit wired dose he get 2 attackes each time his in there?

[DanielFM]

13 minutes ago, Freejack02 said:

If no LA for the command ability, I think an Azyros would be justified to get the reroll 1's to hit along with -2 rend - considering the entire list is built around deleting priority targets immediately.

I didn't consider investing so much into Castigators, I'll admit the battalion benefits are extremely nice when loaded with 27 or 30 of them! Also having 2 large blocks sort of FAQ-proofs the list in cast CAs are clarified to not allow stacking on a single unit. I might even increase both blocks to max size (18) and cut from elsewhere.

I know it's not very popular, but +1 to hit for everyone from the Lord on Tauralon sounds more powerful than reroll ones.

[Freejack02]

6 minutes ago, DanielFM said:

I know it's not very popular, but +1 to hit for everyone from the Lord on Tauralon sounds more powerful than reroll ones.

It is more powerful on paper (and I would love to have both) but I can't help feeling that using Comet Trail is a bit... cumbersome. You can't move if you deploy via Scions, so that invalidates the first turn strike capability. If you deploy on the board, you don't have enough movement to use it first turn anyway. Beyond the first turn, it won't apply to the Anvils attacks in the hero phase - and it only applies to a single unit anyway. Deploying an Azyros 9" away is much more reliable, and much cheaper. 

Not to mention, the practice of "moving the edge of your base just over a unit then back" just feels cheesy to me, and I personally wouldn't want to do it. Considering the base size of the model, anything else is going to be a very tough sell. 

[Richelieu]

19 minutes ago, Manxs said:

Hey guys how dose the celestant prime prime rules for holding in reserve work? cause i find the wording a bit wired dose he get 2 attackes each time his in there?

Yes, he does.  The wording describes what you do at the end of every movement phase if he is in the heavens. You either hold him in reserve and add 2 attacks for the rest of the game, or you bring him to the battlefield.  

 

[Manxs]

 

so if i hold him 2 turns he will have plus 4 attacks? (Sorry i am a bit slow)

[Erdemo86]

11 minutes ago, Manxs said:

 

so if i hold him 2 turns he will have plus 4 attacks? (Sorry i am a bit slow)

If you deploy him turn one he gets + 0 Attacks. Turn 2 +2 Attacks, turn 3 +4 Attacks.

hope i could help you.

[Manxs]

1 minute ago, Erdemo86 said:

If you deploy him turn one he gets + 0 Attacks. Turn 2 +2 Attacks, turn 3 +4 Attacks.

hope i could help you.

Ah okay yeah thank you