AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[Nizrah]

Okay, i get a little bored with my shootcast anvils so i tried to make new competive roster: Here its goes

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Celestial Vindicators
Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline (220)
- General
- Trait: Single-minded Fury
- Artefact: Stormrage Blade
- Spell: Azyrite Halo
- Mount Trait: Pride Leader
Knight-Heraldor (100)
Lord-Castellant (120)
Lord-Ordinator (140)
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Sequitors (130)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Sequitors (130)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
6 x Evocators on Dracolines (600)
- 4x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Terrifying Aspect
Celestar Ballista (110)
Celestar Ballista (110)
Celestar Ballista (110)
Extra Command Point (50)
Chronomantic Cogs (80)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 104


If we get all our buffes on Cats they will have something like: 12 + 3d6 threat range , 3+ fullrerolls sv, 
10 2+(reroll1)/3+(fullrerolls)/-1/d1, 17 2+(reroll1)/3+(fullrerolls)/-0/d2, 31 2+(reroll1)/3+(fullrerolls)/-1/d d3.

Plus we have ballistas and a few sequitors to smash stuff.
 

Edited October 27, 2019 by Nizrah

[Raffonerd]

11 hours ago, Nizrah said:

Okay, i get a little bored with my shootcast anvils so i tried to make new competive roster: Here its goes

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Celestial Vindicators
Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline (220)
- General
- Trait: Single-minded Fury
- Artefact: Stormrage Blade
- Spell: Azyrite Halo
- Mount Trait: Pride Leader
Knight-Heraldor (100)
Lord-Castellant (120)
Lord-Ordinator (140)
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Sequitors (130)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Sequitors (130)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
6 x Evocators on Dracolines (600)
- 4x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Terrifying Aspect
Celestar Ballista (110)
Celestar Ballista (110)
Celestar Ballista (110)
Extra Command Point (50)
Chronomantic Cogs (80)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 104


If we get all our buffes on Cats they will have something like: 12 + 3d6 threat range , 3+ fullrerolls sv, 
10 2+(reroll1)/3+(fullrerolls)/-1/d1, 17 2+(reroll1)/3+(fullrerolls)/-0/d2, 31 2+(reroll1)/3+(fullrerolls)/-1/d d3.

Plus we have ballistas and a few sequitors to smash stuff.
 

If you see on AoS short, this list is not new at all

 

[Hodges]

 

On 10/27/2019 at 4:08 AM, PJetski said:

It's not a matter of opinion... if you read the rule then there is only one correct interpretation. Anyone arguing against that interpretation are deluding themselves and others because they dont like the way the rule works (or maybe they just like arguing).

It's a binary condition - your unit has either moved in the movement phase, or it hasn't. You can't make up a third state for a binary condition; that's not logical. If you haven't had a movement phase yet then the condition is satisfied and the bonus range applies. If they had some way to shoot in the enemy turn then they would also get the bonus range in that scenario.

If they didn't intend for it to work outside of the player shooting phase they would have specified "in the shooting phase" or "in the next shooting phase". Many abilities in the game are worded to work only work in a specific phase, and this is not one of them.

Play the rule as it is written instead of assuming they wrote it wrong. The book has been out for over a year - there has been more than enough time for them to issue an errata.

It is a matter of opinion. The fact that you came to your conclusion means it is, because it does not read that way. And it is not a binary decision, refer to the next post. 

On 10/27/2019 at 4:20 AM, Mark Williams said:

I'm a programmer by trade. Binary objects in databases often have a third null state until they've been asserted to a value. There's no lapse in logic here. If I saw this issue while I was writing a program, I would talk to the client or customer and get clarification on what they wanted to happen. I wouldn't assume it's one or the other, but in general if I couldn't get an answer I would side with the null option rather than assuming it's one of the binary states.

It's a valid interpretation of the rule. I'm conceding your point of view is also a valid conclusion. You're the one who is being close-minded here. I'm sorry that you won't or can't see it, and I'm at my wit's end on how to explain it more clearly to you.

 

100% this. You have to think about it as a logical progression, because the turn sequence is a linear progression. If the movement phase hasnt happened yet, you simply cant have fulfilled a requirement from it. As Mark says here, its a null state - you cant answer yes or no to the requirement its asking for. I get that you want it to work a certain way because this is your army and you want it to stay the best it can. FWIW Stormcast is the only army I own and I am starting to play Anvilstrike, so it would be in my best interests for it to work that way, but it just doesnt read the way you say it does. 

On 10/27/2019 at 6:06 AM, FattBooM666 said:

Every friend I play says is ok, been tournament and TO and players there say it's ok.  

 

Why not use this energy elsewhere.. 🤷‍♂️

I messaged the TO of Cancon in Australia this very question and he said no it does not apply in the hero phase. And for reference, Cancon was ~200 players last year and sold out all 240 tickets in 12 hours this year. Its the single largest tournament in the world and he says no, so if you want data about TO decisions, this is probably the most important one available. 

[schwabbele]

1 hour ago, Hodges said:

100% this.

The only 100% is that we all have no clue and are guessing a lot

 

[relic456]

6 hours ago, Hodges said:

you cant answer yes or no to the requirement its asking for.

Can't you? The ability only asks one question "Did the unit move in the movement phase of the same turn?" The answer to this question is either Yes or No. There is no other unit in the game (that I'm aware of) that answers an If/Then statement with Maybe.  There is only one condition for the If and that is "Did the unit move in the movement phase of the same turn?". In the hero phase, the answer to that question is No, and changes to Yes only if the unit moves in the movement phase.  The fact that the movement phase hasn't happened yet is entirely irrelevant. Command abilities break the normal order of things and giving them the 6" is the most literal reading of the rule. 

Arguing the point from another direction, what's the simplest rule interpretation? The answer being Yes/No is less complex than Yes/No/Null.  Introducing a null state as an answer increases the complexity unnecessarily, which to me supports that its the incorrect interpretation. 

Whether that's what GW intended is a completely different conversation. If it wasn't intended to give extra range in the hero phase, then they will probably reword it to say "When a model from this unit attacks with a missile weapon, it can add 6" to its range but cannot make a normal move for the rest of the turn."   Or maybe, give them 30" base and then say if you make a normal move, reduce the range by 6".

Edited October 28, 2019 by relic456

[schwabbele]

10 minutes ago, relic456 said:

Whether that's what GW intended is a completely different conversation. If it wasn't intended to give extra range in the hero phase, then they will probably reword it to say "When a model from this unit attacks with a missile weapon, it can add 6" to its range but cannot make a normal move for the rest of the turn."   Or maybe, give them 30" base and then say if you make a normal move, reduce the range by 6".

Check this warscroll - "Soletary Marksman":  https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/aos-warscroll-waywatcher-en.pdf

They know how to word it in a more precise way though still not perfect but better

Edited October 28, 2019 by schwabbele

[relic456]

Yup that works too!

[FattBooM666]

7 hours ago, Hodges said:

 

It is a matter of opinion. The fact that you came to your conclusion means it is, because it does not read that way. And it is not a binary decision, refer to the next post. 

100% this. You have to think about it as a logical progression, because the turn sequence is a linear progression. If the movement phase hasnt happened yet, you simply cant have fulfilled a requirement from it. As Mark says here, its a null state - you cant answer yes or no to the requirement its asking for. I get that you want it to work a certain way because this is your army and you want it to stay the best it can. FWIW Stormcast is the only army I own and I am starting to play Anvilstrike, so it would be in my best interests for it to work that way, but it just doesnt read the way you say it does. 

I messaged the TO of Cancon in Australia this very question and he said no it does not apply in the hero phase. And for reference, Cancon was ~200 players last year and sold out all 240 tickets in 12 hours this year. Its the single largest tournament in the world and he says no, so if you want data about TO decisions, this is probably the most important one available. 

Sure I can ask things there. But because it's the biggest doesn't mean it is the best either.

However easiest to do is just ask the TO at the tournament you are going to and play by the rules.

[Hodges]

On 10/4/2019 at 8:45 PM, PJetski said:

I play Longstrikes with 30" range in the hero phase. I used to play it 24" because I wasn't certain about the ruling and decided to take a more conservative approach, but I have been convinced otherwise.

 

7 hours ago, relic456 said:

Can't you? The ability only asks one question "Did the unit move in the movement phase of the same turn?" The answer to this question is either Yes or No. There is no other unit in the game (that I'm aware of) that answers an If/Then statement with Maybe.  There is only one condition for the If and that is "Did the unit move in the movement phase of the same turn?". In the hero phase, the answer to that question is No, and changes to Yes only if the unit moves in the movement phase.  The fact that the movement phase hasn't happened yet is entirely irrelevant. Command abilities break the normal order of things and giving them the 6" is the most literal reading of the rule. 

Arguing the point from another direction, what's the simplest rule interpretation? The answer being Yes/No is less complex than Yes/No/Null.  Introducing a null state as an answer increases the complexity unnecessarily, which to me supports that its the incorrect interpretation. 

Whether that's what GW intended is a completely different conversation. If it wasn't intended to give extra range in the hero phase, then they will probably reword it to say "When a model from this unit attacks with a missile weapon, it can add 6" to its range but cannot make a normal move for the rest of the turn."   Or maybe, give them 30" base and then say if you make a normal move, reduce the range by 6".

I get what you are saying, but let’s ask the question in a more practical way. 

“Did you have a crash when you drove to work today”

If I asked you this when you were at work, you would have a very simple yes or no answer. If I asked you this in the morning what would your answer most likely be? “I don’t know, I haven’t made the drive yet”. The Longstrike question is the same, you can’t answer something that hasn’t happened yet.

I’ve quoted PJetski above to show that he was unsure. He is currently claiming that’s anyone who doesn’t see it his way is manipulating the game for their own benefit, but even he used to play it the 24” range way. That was his initial thoughts before having to be convinced it was 30”. 

I would love it to be 30”  but I can’t try and convince my opponent that’s right cause I just don’t see it. Asking your local TO is the way to go TBH, I don’t see it as ambiguous but obviously others do, so asking the TO is the simplest solution. 

[Tiberius501]

Hello my Stormcast friends, while I get into the hobby and consider yet another army already (already have 3, 1 of them only bought a few weeks ago :S) I was looking at doing  possibly an Anvils of the Heldenhammer army with the Sons of the Lichemaster mercenaries allied to them for a cool looking force. 

Leaders

- Lord-Arcanum on Tauralon (General)

- Lord-relictor

- Necromancer

Battleline

- 10x Sequitors

- 5x Judicators w/ Bows

- 5x Judicators w/ Bows

- 30x Skillingtons

Artillery

- Celestar Balllista

Other

- 5x Evocators

- 3x Evocators on dracolines

[PJetski]

4 hours ago, Hodges said:

 

I get what you are saying, but let’s ask the question in a more practical way. 

“Did you have a crash when you drove to work today”

If I asked you this when you were at work, you would have a very simple yes or no answer. If I asked you this in the morning what would your answer most likely be? “I don’t know, I haven’t made the drive yet”. The Longstrike question is the same, you can’t answer something that hasn’t happened yet.

I’ve quoted PJetski above to show that he was unsure. He is currently claiming that’s anyone who doesn’t see it his way is manipulating the game for their own benefit, but even he used to play it the 24” range way. That was his initial thoughts before having to be convinced it was 30”. 

I would love it to be 30”  but I can’t try and convince my opponent that’s right cause I just don’t see it. Asking your local TO is the way to go TBH, I don’t see it as ambiguous but obviously others do, so asking the TO is the simplest solution. 

That is a really terrible metaphor. The rules normally specify when an ability is only active in a specific phase, and there are plenty of examples where abilities break the regular rules of the game.  Just because a rule isn't intuitive doesn't mean it isn't working as intended.

You took my quote out of context. I used to play it at 24" to avoid having any kind of argument with an opponent, not because I believed it worked the other way.

[Mark Williams]

It isn't a terrible metaphor. It would help if you argued your case without resorting to calling the other side terrible every time they give you an example.

I'll state again that I see good arguments on both sides of the fence, and my opinion is that it isn't clear, and thus I will err on the benefit of my opponent rather than myself, when I play it. I would personally wait for an FAQ before playing it a different way.

To me it boils down to default variable states, and whether or not there's a default state of no, or a default state of null (which resets each turn). The wording of the rule doesn't make it clear which way they want us to interpret it. I feel that reading anything more into GW's intention beyond that is just injecting bias into it.

Having said that, I do think there's something interesting in the core rules in regards to setting up units, and how setup moves, while preventing units from moving in their movement phases, do not count as moving for the purposes of rules that are restricted base don movement. Case in point - I can teleport a unit of raptors, which counts as a setup move, and then shoot the full 30" in the shooting phase, but I cannot move them in the movement phase. I can't connect this rule back to using abilities in the hero phase, but I do feel that it might give some indication of leaning towards the raptors being able to shoot 30" in the hero phase.

However, there's no direct ruling or FAQ relating to any situation like this. On the contrary, there are quite a few situations where units can fight or shoot in the hero phase, and the benefits of their special rules don't carry over into the hero phase. In honesty, I feel like GW has been subtly shutting down stuff like this over the past year, and trying to prevent too much "activity" happening in the hero phases, and that to me gives plenty of indication that they wouldn't want the raptors working like that either.

As I said, I see good arguments on both sides. I don't think the wording of the rule is clear. I'm trying to be as impartial as I possibly can.

[PJetski]

13 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

However, there's no direct ruling or FAQ relating to any situation like this. On the contrary, there are quite a few situations where units can fight or shoot in the hero phase, and the benefits of their special rules don't carry over into the hero phase.

It depends on how the ability is worded. Some abilities specify "in the combat phase" or "in the shooting phase" like Blood Stalker ability Heartseeker.  There is an FAQ about this about this ability that says it does not happen when you activate them to shoot in the hero phase (eg. with Morathis command ability) because it specifically mentions when it activates.

Evocators Lightning Arc does not specify a phase, so it activates in every phase the unit attacks. They just put out an errata on that ability and kept the phase phrasing the same. If theywanted to change the ability to work only in the combat phase they could have done so at the time of printing the errata.

It is therefore fair and reasonable to assume that it is by design that some abilities are worded so that they only work in a specific phase, and other abilities work in any phase.

Units normally move in the movement phase, shoot in the shooting phase, charge in the charge phase, and fight in the combat phase, but there are plenty of rules in the game that allow units to make these actions outside their normal phase. The order of the phases is irrelevant when it comes to bonuses that apply regardless of the phase that is active.

Long Shot bonus range is active until the condition is met. It works in all phases, even if that phase comes before the unit would normally be selected to shoot.

[Kodos der Henker]

interesting discussion but there is one argument I miss here

using the ability in the hero phase prevents moving in the movement phase

not moving = extended range

if you use the extra range in the hero phase, because you are not moving in the movement phase (which did not happened by that time but to meet the condition you can not move later)

using the extra range and moving is the one thing that needs some wired construction to work

[Hodges]

4 hours ago, PJetski said:

It depends on how the ability is worded. Some abilities specify "in the combat phase" or "in the shooting phase" like Blood Stalker ability Heartseeker.  There is an FAQ about this about this ability that says it does not happen when you activate them to shoot in the hero phase (eg. with Morathis command ability) because it specifically mentions when it activates.

Evocators Lightning Arc does not specify a phase, so it activates in every phase the unit attacks. They just put out an errata on that ability and kept the phase phrasing the same. If theywanted to change the ability to work only in the combat phase they could have done so at the time of printing the errata.

It is therefore fair and reasonable to assume that it is by design that some abilities are worded so that they only work in a specific phase, and other abilities work in any phase.

Units normally move in the movement phase, shoot in the shooting phase, charge in the charge phase, and fight in the combat phase, but there are plenty of rules in the game that allow units to make these actions outside their normal phase. The order of the phases is irrelevant when it comes to bonuses that apply regardless of the phase that is active.

Long Shot bonus range is active until the condition is met. It works in all phases, even if that phase comes before the unit would normally be selected to shoot.

I largely agreed with you up until the bolded part, thats just how you have decided to intepret this, theres no real rule backing that up. There is however a rule about the turn sequence and order of how things work. 

You are correct that there are plenty of abilities that dont specify a phase and as such those abilities are available to use each phase. The Evoc faq does back that up, that they are happy to have the lightning work in every phase they are available to fight in. That still has nothing to do with bonuses from other phases occurring prior to their trigger. Its just a timing thing, you cant correlate two completely separate rules. 

[Hodges]

2 minutes ago, Kodos der Henker said:

interesting discussion but there is one argument I miss here

using the ability in the hero phase prevents moving in the movement phase

not moving = extended range

if you use the extra range in the hero phase, because you are not moving in the movement phase (which did not happened by that time but to meet the condition you can not move later)

using the extra range and moving is the one thing that needs some wired construction to work

That is interesting, hadnt considerd that. Question for PJetski and others that play 30" hero phase shooting - if you take the hero phase extra range, do you then lock yourself out of moving that turn? Or would you argue you can still move?

[Mark Williams]

I agree with what @Hodges has said, but at this point I have nothing new to add to the conversation.

So with that said, I just finished this guy tonight.

Here’s the list I plan to try out this weekend. I’ll try to take some pics and report back on how Gotrek does.

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar
Mortal Realm: Aqshy
Gotrek Gurnisson (520)
Knight-Incantor (140)
- Spell: Azyrite Halo
Gavriel Sureheart (120)
Lord-Castellant (120)
- General
- Trait: We Cannot Fail  
- Artefact: God-forged Blade  
10 x Liberators (200)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 2x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Judicators (160)
- Boltstorm Crossbows
- 1x Thunderbolt Crossbows
3 x Aetherwings (50)
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows (140)
10 x Evocators (440)
- 10x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 106
 

[PJetski]

3 hours ago, Hodges said:

That is interesting, hadnt considerd that. Question for PJetski and others that play 30" hero phase shooting - if you take the hero phase extra range, do you then lock yourself out of moving that turn? Or would you argue you can still move?

When you shoot in the hero phase you have satisfied the conditions for Long Shot to be active. It does not impede your movement later.

I'm not sure what led you to such a strange line of thinking.

[Kevin K]

Sorry if I reignited an old argument.  A friend and I were having this exact same argument and I was thinking of playing it, which is why I was hoping there was a consensus here.

Personally, I think it is usable in the hero phase but understand the other argument.  I think because you clearly haven't "moved in the movement phase of the same turn" in the hero phase, you should get the +6".  The one thing that makes it potentially questionable to me is the implied past because of the wording "did not move".  If it was "has not moved" it would be clear but it doesn't say that.  They have created an undefined state, which is bad for rules.

I think I will just not play them until an FAQ.  Having undefined rules with no community consensus in my army makes me crazy.

Edited October 29, 2019 by Kevin K

[Kodos der Henker]

6 minutes ago, PJetski said:

I'm not sure what led you to such a strange line of thinking.

the text on the warscroll

Add 6" to the Range characteristic of this unit’s Longstrike Crossbows if this unit did not move in the movement phase of the same turn.

I see there 2 possibilities to handle the rule, ignore the past tense (and phase order) and allow it to he used in the hero phase but still prevent moving in the movement phase (as you cannot ignore the requirement as well just because you ignore the phase order)

or you don't ignore the past tense and it is clear that the movement phase need to had happened before you can add the 6".

I cannot see how one can come to the strange conclusion to use this ability in the hero phase to ignore the requirements at all and move the unit in the movement.

[PJetski]

3 minutes ago, Kodos der Henker said:

I cannot see how one can come to the strange conclusion to use this ability in the hero phase to ignore the requirements at all and move the unit in the movement.

Using the Long Shot bonus does not prevent movement. The ability would tell you if it did that.

The bonus is active at all times until you satisfy the condition to disable it.

The phase order is irrelevant - if they wanted it to only work in the shooting phase they would have worded it that way.

[Mark Williams]

2 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Using the Long Shot bonus does not prevent movement. The ability would tell you if it did that.

The bonus is active at all times until you satisfy the condition to disable it.

The phase order is irrelevant - if they wanted it to only work in the shooting phase they would have worded it that way.

You’re saying the way it’s worded indicates they thought about hero phase activation, then worded it that way on purpose.

My point of view is that the way it’s worded (using past tense) indicates they weren’t thinking about it at all. I don’t think the wording of the rule makes it clear what they wanted to happen. I think it was probably a total oversight on their part which led to vague wording.

[relic456]

1 minute ago, Mark Williams said:

My point of view is that the way it’s worded (using past tense) indicates they weren’t thinking about it at all. I don’t think the wording of the rule makes it clear what they wanted to happen. I think it was probably a total oversight on their part which led to vague wording.

Oh they 100% weren't thinking about it, hence the confusion.  But until they fix it we're stuck with what the ability says and I think @PJetski has the best summary: "The bonus is active at all times until you satisfy the condition to disable it."

[Kevin K]

2 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

I think it was probably a total oversight on their part which led to vague wording.

Agree with this completely

[PJetski]

5 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

You’re saying the way it’s worded indicates they thought about hero phase activation, then worded it that way on purpose.

My point of view is that the way it’s worded (using past tense) indicates they weren’t thinking about it at all. I don’t think the wording of the rule makes it clear what they wanted to happen. I think it was probably a total oversight on their part which led to vague wording.

Why would you assume the writers of the game got their own rule wrong? Rather than trying to guess their intent, isn't it more reasonable to assume they wrote the rule the way they wanted it to be used? There have been many opportunities over the past 16 months for them to change it.

Rules work the way they are written. You can't play a game when everyone is trying to interpret the rules in whatever way they think it is supposed to work.