PJetski Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 28 minutes ago, schwabbele said: Only 1 time use per unit, so not that powerful but probably still worth a try now with cheaper desolators. On a squad of 8 that's 16 bonus attacks with high accuracy, rend, and respectable damage. Many other command abilities that grant bonus attacks are usually restricted to poor quality attacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crkhobbit Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 On offense, they're strictly worse than evocators on dracolines, even without empower. And desos are 4+ to hit instead of 3+, so evos even benefit from +1 attack more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frostfire Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 The CV is already great as I experienced. 6 thundercats with LA on the cats deleted like 40 marauders even with -1 to hit and 5+ 6+ fnp in a single charge. I think CV's CA would work well in units with multiple weapons for each cp you spend actually generate 2 attacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJetski Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 34 minutes ago, crkhobbit said: On offense, they're strictly worse than evocators on dracolines, even without empower. And desos are 4+ to hit instead of 3+, so evos even benefit from +1 attack more. The breath attack and better save is what puts them over the top for me. I think Desolators are better in AT than CV because +1 hit on their breath is great for killing monsters, while Dracolines benefit more from the CV command ability because they can be on 2+/2+ easily and benefit more from a Heraldor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crkhobbit Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 4 minutes ago, PJetski said: The breath attack and better save is what puts them over the top for me. I think Desolators are better in AT than CV because +1 hit on their breath is great for killing monsters, while Dracolines benefit more from the CV command ability because they can be on 2+/2+ easily and benefit more from a Heraldor. Not gonna lie - I was building deso lists before we knew any of the points because of the save and the range ability helping against fights first. But I think they're still not quite there yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJetski Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 (edited) Crunched some numbers on Dracolines vs Desolators with and without buffs (+1 wound, reroll hit1, +1 hit, reroll wounds, +1 hit vs MONSTER, etc.). They are close in terms of efficiency, it really depends on personal preference. Desolators have a slight edge in damage output with zero buffs and with full buffs, but having to spend 460 on a Drakesworn really limits your options. Pros for Desolators: Average damage is mostly the same but has huch higher potential max damage Even with no +hit buffs they still do a ton of damage. 5 attacks at 2 damage each should not be underestimated. All Thunderaxes are 2" reach, while some Dracolines have to take 1" weapons Breath attack happens before combat, which can clear screens and weak/kill big monsters Breath has a bigger threat range, can shoot past screens +1 save and can reroll 1 in every phase Usually more mortal wounds per round than the lightning arc, can be really devastating in a double turn situation Loses 1 attack per model once you drop below 6, loses 2 attacks per model when you drop below 4 Dont need to charge to get bonus damage Pros for Evocators Can score WIZARD objectives Unbind Can activate Cogs Benefit more from +Attack buffs Reroll charges Dont need to shoot, can run & charge with Heraldor Celestial Lightning Arc happens every combat phase Dont have to spend 460 on a Drakesworn (but you have to spend 220 to get a LADrac) It seems like it will come down to preference and h I think they are going to work best in totally different lists. I picture 3 lists right now: 1. Astral Templars - Desolators with Stardrake and wizards 2. Astral Templars - Desolators with Ballista core 3. Celestial Vindicators - Dracolines with Ballista core, Heraldor and Cogs to reroll saves The first one seems to be the strongest - Drakesworn is an expensive monster but it has a lot a great utility. I'm excited to start working on this list Edited June 16, 2019 by PJetski 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belper Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 8 hours ago, PrimeElectrid said: So what’s the optimal weapon loadout for Libs in 5s? Paired weapons or shields? Shields. I honestly forget they even have paired weapons sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juicy Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 Going to rebuild my fulminators into desolators. Desolators feels like a good choise atm. Running this list to a tournament next month Lord-Celestant on Stardrake (560) - General - Command Trait : Staunch Defender - Celestine Hammer - Artefact : Ignax's Scales - Mount Trait : Keen-clawed Drakesworn Templar (460) - Storm Lance - Mount Trait : Keen-clawed Castellant (120) Lord-Relictor (100) - Prayer : Translocation UNITS 5 x Liberators (100) - Warhammers - 1 x Grandhammers 5 x Liberators (100) - Warhammers - 1 x Grandhammers 5 x Judicators (160) - Skybolt Bows - 1 x Shockbolt Bows 4 x Desolators (420) 2000 points on the spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ledha Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 6 hours ago, Victra said: With the point drop to desolators I think they can outclass evocators on dracoline. I'll try this list, on paper looks like it has good anti-magic, mobility and shooting. The second Incantor could be replaced by an Azyros or Castellant. The list is basically the meta EvoCat + Ballista but with a 12" mortal wound shooting and better saves. Using Anvils we can shoot twice with the Desolators to clean chaff and then charge. Vexillor 120 Incantor 140 (celestial blades) Incantor 140 Ordinator 140 Heraldor 100 Liberators 100 Liberators 100 Liberators 100 6x Desolators 600 Ballista 110 Ballista 110 Ballista 110 Ballista 110 Total 1980 Taking such a big deathstar without a castellant to protect it seems strange 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWFall Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 41 minutes ago, PJetski said: 1. Astral Templars - Desolators with Stardrake and wizards Deep in the List Mines at the moment and these words map fairly closely to something I have here: Quote 460 Drakesworn Templar (General: Dauntless Hunters, Artefact: Godbeast Plate) 140 Incantor (Azyrite Halo) 140 Incantor (Celestial Blades) 120 Castellant 100 Liberators 100 Liberators 100 Liberators 70 Skinks 70 Skinks 600 6x Desolators 60 Geminids 30 Quicksilver Swords 1990 My problem with this kind of thing is I don't really see how you reliably beat Gristlegore or Slaanesh with it. Pair of Keepers or an ASF Terrogheist looks at those dracoths and sees dinner. Screening heavily while trying to kill them with breath attacks and spells might get you somewhere, but I'm not fully convinced. More Skinks instead of the Geminids is a potential first change. That said, my experiments with trying to shoehorn a bunch of Ballistae and a Lord-Celestant Stardrake in to Astral Templars aren't really bearing fruit either, and I would like to get a big dragon on a table somehow this year. It's worth investigating further, I think - Desolators seem very good at 200 points, if you can actually get them to connect their damage before dying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJetski Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 Lightning Breath should cripple or outright kill a gristlegore general or keeper of secrets. You may need to add in some more focused fire with ballistas or spells. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWFall Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 With dead average rolling, Lightning Breath will deal about 8 mortal wounds a go, with the Astral Templars +1 to hit. I don't really see that cutting it, even with extra damage from the endless spells. I'm not sure how to shoehorn in more damage without compromising the ability to deliver even that much, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJetski Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, AWFall said: With dead average rolling, Lightning Breath will deal about 8 mortal wounds a go, with the Astral Templars +1 to hit. I don't really see that cutting it, even with extra damage from the endless spells. I'm not sure how to shoehorn in more damage without compromising the ability to deliver even that much, though. With a Drakesworn you can be on 2+ rerolling 1s with an Azyros, which can do 12 on average. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWFall Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 I definitely forgot the Drakesworn bow buff isn't just for melee weapons, so you're right on that. 12 sounds a lot more real, especially combined with Rain of Stars, the endless spells, etc - you might actually get over the top and get the kill. I'm curious exactly how you'd build it to get the Azyros in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJetski Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 With a 6" dauntless move and 12" +d6 run you should be able to get anything you need within 10" of the Azyros Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belper Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 37 minutes ago, PJetski said: Crunched some numbers on Dracolines vs Desolators with and without buffs (+1 wound, reroll hit1, +1 hit, reroll wounds, +1 hit vs MONSTER, etc.). They are close in terms of efficiency, it really depends on personal preference. Desolators have a slight edge in damage output with zero buffs and with full buffs, but having to spend 460 on a Drakesworn really limits your options. Pros for Desolators: Average damage is mostly the same but has huch higher potential max damage Even with no +hit buffs they still do a ton of damage. 5 attacks at 2 damage each should not be underestimated. All Thunderaxes are 2" reach, while some Dracolines have to take 1" weapons Breath attack happens before combat, which can clear screens and weak/kill big monsters Breath has a bigger threat range, can shoot past screens +1 save and can reroll 1 in every phase Usually more mortal wounds per round than the lightning arc, can be really devastating in a double turn situation Loses 1 attack per model once you drop below 6, loses 2 attacks per model when you drop below 4 Dont need to charge to get bonus damage Pros for Evocators Can score WIZARD objectives Unbind Can activate Cogs Benefit more from +Attack buffs Reroll charges Dont need to shoot, can run & charge with Heraldor Celestial Lightning Arc happens every combat phase Dont have to spend 460 on a Drakesworn (but you have to spend 220 to get a LADrac) It seems like it will come down to preference and h I think they are going to work best in totally different lists. I picture 3 lists right now: 1. Astral Templars - Desolators with Stardrake and wizards 2. Astral Templars - Desolators with Ballista core 3. Celestial Vindicators - Dracolines with Ballista core, Heraldor and Cogs to reroll saves The first one seems to be the strongest - Drakesworn is an expensive monster but it has a lot a great utility. I'm excited to start working on this list Gonna have to poop on the parade here a bit.(Side bar: Your chart is inflating the value of the breath attack. You'd only get those numbers in a double turn, never in a single battle round) Unfortunately, running them at 8 is suicide. Especially one unit that ANOTHER famous 800pt unit can wash off the table in a single round from behind a wall of skeletons or lock down with anti-movement debuffs. If you're taking them at max attacks you're taking 6 and kinda hoping for the best. You also have to consider that a lord Arcanum buffing Dracolines gives magic support already, whereas a Stardrake Desolator list has to buy wizards also. Also, you guys underestimating just how much of a burden being forced to take a drakesworn Templar is. For 460pts, it's pretty subpar. The thing hits like a wet noodle and without the reroll 1s shield dies to harsh language People are overestimating the breath attack. Even hitting on 3s it does basically nothing (relative to being a 600pt unit that pretty much demands at least 720pts of support characters to be decent. (A Castellant and an incantor are MANDATORY. You should be bringing a heraldor too as well.) Going AT for their shooting attack is pretty optimisitic considering you start out at an average of 3 MW per player turn. Look at a theoretical desolator list: 460 for a Drakesworn, 800 for the desolators, min liberator battleline brings us up to 1560pts. Castellant and incantor are mandatory so that's 1700 into 1820. Heraldor and a command point put you at 1970. That's a essentially a 2 unit army. Even going down to 6 desolators only gives you room for 1 extra unit and if you drop the stardrake then it makes the desolators even weaker for how much you have invested. They are painfully vulnerable to mortal wounds. Without even so much as a way to unbind, most caster armies will peel off the +2 attacks in a round. Your only defense is to skydrop them at which point both evocators and paladins would probably be better options. Finally, at brave 7 you'll likely never get to use the CA because you'll be spending all your CP trying to keep them from running away, not to mention what Mindrazored WE or Morathi will do to them with no staunch... The biggest thing though is...neither unit is very good. None of the Cavalry are. Palladors make a decent enough meat shield at 180 for 15 wounds, but they're all pretty well outclassed by what can be done with drop lists or shooting. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belper Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 47 minutes ago, PJetski said: Lightning Breath should cripple or outright kill a gristlegore general or keeper of secrets. You may need to add in some more focused fire with ballistas or spells. If you're AT, in a double turn, and are obscenely lucky, against a Gristlegore that doesn't have their shield spell up, with a unit of 8 desolators, and a stardrake, that are somehow both completely in range AND at full strength. If you're not on the double turn, you can't kill it. If you're not AT, you do mediocre damage. If the stardrake missed ITS shot, you only moderately wound it. If it has it's shield up you lightly scratch it, if you're down to 6 desolators you do essentially no damage. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belper Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 48 minutes ago, PJetski said: With a Drakesworn you can be on 2+ rerolling 1s with an Azyros, which can do 12 on average. Yeah, and if your opponent gets hit by a meteor and fails into a portal to a different dimension, you can win by default. Their are more practical ways to kill a FEC Gristlegore than relying on...jesus 1340pts of models getting lucky AND hoping your opponent doesn't know what an azyros does. Especially when you also devoted your Stormhost choice to the task and it STILL probably needs a double turn to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJetski Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 The breath attack does d3 mortal wounds, which averages to 2, so 6 models will do the equivalent of 12 attacks at 1 damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhamslam Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 45 minutes ago, Belper said: Unfortunately, running them at 8 is suicide. Especially one unit that ANOTHER famous 800pt unit can wash off the table in a single round from behind a wall of skeletons or lock down with anti-movement debuffs Slight correction here, If this is Nagash, he just went up to 850. Lists might not take him now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Williams Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 The only thing I have to add to this Desolator conversation of worthy note, is that you guys are basically putting it up against the best opponent in the game and trying to pick it apart from that angle. Such an army I imagine would do fairly well against lesser opponents, and it might be fun to play. I've got a version of this list that I've been building towards for a while, but my version is using the Hammers of Sigmar and Vandus Hammerhand rather than a Drakesworn Templar. Vandus makes the Desolators immune to battleshock while he's still alive, and he has a command ability that he can pop to give them +1 attack. I don't plan on winning tournaments with such a list, but against many other armies, it would be a pain in the butt for them to deal with. For the sake of variety, I do think it might do well, occasionally. Yes, easy for some armies to counter, but that's life. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FattBooM666 Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 I like the idea of the desolators. Wether it is witha dragon, Vandus or ballistas. Atm im thinking about how i would face my last opponent that i played against with gav bomb. (I won the game and he said he wants to to try the list again but remove knights and add in a unit of zombies or skeleteons) He had: Vloord on dragon Wight King (General) Necromance 40x skeletons 40x skeletons 60x Zombies 15x Black knights So im thinking if i have the ballista list > I can most likely shoot the Vlord. Desolators can get close where the general/necros are to try snipe them with the breath. What if i dont have the ballistas, how will i even get close to that dragon? With my gavbomb i just went in with 10x evocators and killed the Vloord. Atm i think for me a ballista list is my take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaffaBones Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 (edited) On 6/15/2019 at 3:11 PM, HammerOfSigmar said: Well, I think GW design this point changes with an intention, if either longstrike drop 10 more points or some other vanguard unit drops more, we can start using the big vanguard battlion with 3-6 longstrike, and they are 2 attack each in this battlion, which is very very deadly. It is like we own the anvil strike command ability with no need to use CP and stick to anvil stormhost. I did the math, you can't! Even after dropping the Vanguard Aux Chamber 20p and all the Vanguard changes is not enough to fit it into 2k points with minimum requirements. This is plain dumb. Why bother having battalions if they won't even fit into 2k? They even touched all units for it but seemed to never have done the math for the battalion. Where are all this 2500p tournaments happening all our battalions seem to aim at? I am very disappointed. RIP Stardrake Lists. They even made Skinks +10 points, which was my go to ally for bodies (e.g. in Anvilstrike). A weaker version of Anvilstrike is now the only go to as it seems. Last hope will be what they do in the next ghb faq. Edited June 16, 2019 by JaffaBones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FattBooM666 Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 4 minutes ago, JaffaBones said: Last hope will be what they do in the next ghb faq. How long does it generally take for the FAQ to get out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaffaBones Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, FattBooM666 said: How long does it generally take for the FAQ to get out? They announced the ghb 19 faq for early July with a proposed point update for all new books (skaven, fec, etc) Edited June 16, 2019 by JaffaBones 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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