AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion

[Drofnum]

They still do well outside of high tide.  Its just that a good high tide can win a game for you just simply by killing off so many of your opponents models.

[whispersofblood]

High Tide is for breaking the enemie's back. But turn 1 and 2 you need to be getting points and strategic positions. 

Deployment is a big deal for us. 

[Dave8210]

What enclave are people running nowadays? Ionrach still seems the best from what I can tell. 

Im just starting out, bought my first Soulrender, and am keen to get painting. In my mind I like the idea of numerous Thralls and regening them all and certainly think it will be competitive and fun enough in my local scene but probably not if I go further afield?

i ask cos i want to paint them accurately- I know I can just say they are such and such but OCD kicking in an all that...

[DantePQ]

I think many Idonenth players play badly because of High Tide, I am recently playing Deepkins as much as Daughters of Khaine and they are awesome army to play with a lot of nuances. For know it's Eeel Spam Alpha Strike list just because I wanted something different from DoK. High Tide is a awesome bonus but what I observed is that other Deepkin players in my community just want to survive until High Tide but I guess it isn't how one should play Deepkins. 

I think Dhoim-Haim and Fuethan are the best enclaves, Ionarch is nice but I found Deepkins magic underwhelming. 

[mmimzie]

2 hours ago, DantePQ said:

I think many Idonenth players play badly because of High Tide, I am recently playing Deepkins as much as Daughters of Khaine and they are awesome army to play with a lot of nuances. For know it's Eeel Spam Alpha Strike list just because I wanted something different from DoK. High Tide is a awesome bonus but what I observed is that other Deepkin players in my community just want to survive until High Tide but I guess it isn't how one should play Deepkins. 

I think Dhoim-Haim and Fuethan are the best enclaves, Ionarch is nice but I found Deepkins magic underwhelming. 

I'd say it's a mix of both right??? Its about know when and where you can alpha strike, and what you need to alpha strike. Which armies require an alpha strike of you, and which armies maybe it's better to sit and get a good angle. 

No matter what to be successful you need to have the option to alpha strike, as with out ability to leverage boats we can divide the deployment zones in such favorable ways as to give us the space we need to alpha. 

That said if you opponent is pretty well turtled up alpha striking and just end up seeing you quite very shattered, and in which cases taking a multiple turn approach that trys to get a good turn 3 off might be the best bet. 

As for enclave i have been loving ionrach quiet a lot now that i'm back in the swing with my deepkin. The +1 to cast is a significant factor in the success of my aspect of the sea list.  Getting him up with steed of tides and throwing down tsunami, and then charging turn one is decently consistent and really helps with the above alphra strike. As the aspect can join in on the charge thanks to the steed of tides move.  plus i'm running 2 tide casters with a vortex, and some allies and i'd been having some great success with my current list. Still working out what allies i prefer more. 

[Sactownbri]

On 10/16/2018 at 1:03 PM, DantePQ said:

The biggest problem with competitive Deepkin is how badly they match-up against Daughters of Khaine , as I play DoK myslef the easiest games were against Deepkin as they can't handle combination of immune to battleshock and high number of attacks, as Deepkins have almost no tools to deal with Morathi in small form and Hag Queens. With hardly any shooting and quite weak offensive magic it's an uphill battle from the start. 

I have, exactly one time, taken out Morathi on Turn 2 with Arcane corrosion and no transformation. While she’s a beast I find the Melusai build with the movement shenanigans and the mortal wound ridiculousness far more difficult to deal with. I’m still surprised we don’t see that build win every tournament. Thank god for objective based scenarios.

[Sactownbri]

5 hours ago, Dave8210 said:

What enclave are people running nowadays? Ionrach still seems the best from what I can tell. 

Im just starting out, bought my first Soulrender, and am keen to get painting. In my mind I like the idea of numerous Thralls and regening them all and certainly think it will be competitive and fun enough in my local scene but probably not if I go further afield?

i ask cos i want to paint them accurately- I know I can just say they are such and such but OCD kicking in an all that...

I have been playing Fuethan with the Akhelian Corp, Volturnos and an Aspect of the Sea. Love me some sea turtle Dune style. Plus I really enjoy the Allopex. If I’ve got room for the Soul Scryer, outflanking them is always my strategy. I’ve killed Arkhan, Brokk, Blood thirsters and more on the charge from the flank with two Allopex’.

[whispersofblood]

The magic is terrible. If abysall darkness was 12" it would be worth taking. It's not even so much the models, it's the spells they have access to.

Tidecaster is a tasty wizard, but without realm spells, Ionrach, and an artifact, his positives on the army as a whole are pretty yawn inducing.

Similarly the Aspect of the Sea just can't influence the game enough imo.

I'm recently have just been doubling down on the things that IDK do well, ending games asap, and playing into the raider theme of the army.

[DantePQ]

I think the problem isn't Tidecaster as his/hers spell s pretty good, but magic in Deepkins isn't just reliable enough you got one spell for 100 pts which is standard but and Aspect has two spells (without bonuses to cast)for 440 and it isn't enough also Deepkins do not have signature spell like for example Midnrazor. 

[whispersofblood]

21 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

I think the problem isn't Tidecaster as his/hers spell s pretty good, but magic in Deepkins isn't just reliable enough you got one spell for 100 pts which is standard but and Aspect has two spells (without bonuses to cast)for 440 and it isn't enough also Deepkins do not have signature spell like for example Midnrazor. 

I would say the Lord of the Deeps is terrible. The Tidecaster's spell is solid however. 

The frustrating thing about IDK, and magic is that your army as a close combat army will spend almost the whole game in unbind range. The armies you frequently come across just stack too many cast and unbind bonuses. Also, I've never been fantastic at rolling 2d6. 

Arcane corrosion would be good if the target wasn't the closest. Pressure of the deep is handy, but obvious and a high cast value. 

[DantePQ]

Yep that's a problem if you want to go spell heavy those spells got to be reliable and IDK spells aren't also they are not universal enough to build an army around magic, but I guess it's just internal balance problem - Eeels are so good/point efficient that they limit design place that's why Thralls aren't getting much love. I'd love to have some spells that effect only Namarati 

[whispersofblood]

1 hour ago, DantePQ said:

Yep that's a problem if you want to go spell heavy those spells got to be reliable and IDK spells aren't also they are not universal enough to build an army around magic, but I guess it's just internal balance problem - Eeels are so good/point efficient that they limit design place that's why Thralls aren't getting much love. I'd love to have some spells that effect only Namarati 

Part of the problem is the limited design space surrounding the other builds. I had hoped given the limited number of units in the faction they would have provided a spectrum of playstyle. 

I'm concerned that the only thing stopping IDK from full hammerstrike 3.0 are sceneries, and that is a tenuous incentive at best. 

[DantePQ]

I think it's hard to balance it with such a unit like Eels as they are so point efficient. 

I think that GW came up with really awesome unit in Thralls as in vacuum they are amazing, that they were afraid to make them flat out broken with more syngergies. And that's a problem as infantry armies live and die on synergies. In Deepkin there are none, as you would have to write Namarati only synergies. 

But what's good is that unlike other armies there is a possibility to fix it with points for example make Reavers 100-120 pts, Lotann and Soulrender 80, Leviadon 300 and Allopex 100-120 and there would be more viable options.

[Siegfried VII]

Thralls only needed 25mm bases. Without any other change they would be golden and very much viable as a unit to build an army around in my opinion.

[mmimzie]

They would be good on 25s but I like them on 32s. I think as a power house at 10 man they do that job well. For 140pts you'll have a hard time finding something that his like thralls do. 

 

 

Really the thrall support system just needs a price drop. 80 point soulrender and cheaper lotann.

 

From there honestly even now thralls have some decent tools available to them.  2 or 3 soulscryers can see thralls doing something very similar to the sequaitor/evocator bomb right now. 

 

As for reavers all shooting needs a very tiny pts drop as a whole. As I've said else where reavers are actualy quite amazing shooting as they rival some of the best shooting unit damage out put if you look at them over 2 turns, but they also pack a pretty great punch in melee when compared to said shooting units.

 

[HollowHills]

I want Lotann to get a rules rework to become the synergy for thralls we are missing. Also better battalions would help. Even then thralls are fairly similar to bloodletters, who don't see a lot of play.

[whispersofblood]

The raw Reaver warscroll is good. Unfortunately your warscroll is just the start. The ethaersea is a very good allegiance ability, but it doesn't really let Namarti be more than they are in a strategic way.

I really wish Thralls had Mv8 and Reavers had Mv8 +ignored models in the way. I also think the multishot should get +1 to hit at 3".  But, I'm wishlisting.

[Maddpainting]

Hey all! I have a large tournament coming up in about 4-5 months (Adepticon) and i'm thinking of taking my AoS Deepkin to it (instead of my Dark Eldar/CWE/soup for 40k) and not knowing to much of the AoS tournament lists (im reading up on them now), i was just wonder what list would you like better.

My first list that is mostly focusing on Behemoths and Morrsarr to be buffed and essentially win on turn 3 or lose on turn 3, the kinda typical list

Spoiler

Vulturnos, High King of the Deep (280)
General Isharann Tidecaster (100)
Isharann Soulscryer (100)
UNITS
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (320)

BEHEMOTHS
Akhelian Leviadon (380)
Akhelian Leviadon (380)
BATTALIONS Royal Council (140) TOTAL: 1980/2000

Or my 2nd list, one that i think is more fun, but IDk if it as competitive, focusing on reversing the tides and controlling turn 2-3 as much as i can, putting pressure on fast.

Its basically the same list but no  2nd Behemoth, Thralls instead and Tidecaster as General to have the Tide chart reverse.

[Thankee]

20 minutes ago, Maddpainting said:

Hey all! I have a large tournament coming up in about 4-5 months (Adepticon) and i'm thinking of taking my AoS Deepkin to it (instead of my Dark Eldar/CWE/soup for 40k) and not knowing to much of the AoS tournament lists (im reading up on them now), i was just wonder what list would you like better.

My first list that is mostly focusing on Behemoths and Morrsarr to be buffed and essentially win on turn 3 or lose on turn 3, the kinda typical list

  Hide contents

Vulturnos, High King of the Deep (280)
General Isharann Tidecaster (100)
Isharann Soulscryer (100)
UNITS
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (320)

BEHEMOTHS
Akhelian Leviadon (380)
Akhelian Leviadon (380)
BATTALIONS Royal Council (140) TOTAL: 1980/2000

Or my 2nd list, one that i think is more fun, but IDk if it as competitive, focusing on reversing the tides and controlling turn 2-3 as much as i can, putting pressure on fast.

Its basically the same list but no  2nd Behemoth, Thralls instead and Tidecaster as General to have the Tide chart reverse.

You'd lose leviadon cover save when you charge. Change one turtle into a wave ? which makes you reroll wounds of 1. Put ethereal amulet on him and go to town

[Maddpainting]

The point of the double turtle list was to abuse the +1 attack so i can have large amounts of deadly attacks to insure kill anything. The Eidolians are good (spelling?) But idk if its worth the turtles damage to swap it out when he is +1 attacks.

Edit: PS, I know i lose the charge/cover save, thats BRB basic rules ? But the Ishlaen Guard dont care at least  

I do have the Eidolian i use for fun, i will consider it for sure.

 

Edited October 21, 2018 by Maddpainting

[wanderingrogue]

I'm curious to see people saying daughters of khaine is such a bad match up. I'm undefeated va dok with deepkin in tournies and casual at the moment. I actually think it's one of the few armies that give daughters some genuine problems 

[Thankee]

9 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

The point of the double turtle list was to abuse the +1 attack so i can have large amounts of deadly attacks to insure kill anything. The Eidolians are good (spelling?) But idk if its worth the turtles damage to swap it out when he is +1 attacks.

Edit: PS, I know i lose the charge/cover save, thats BRB basic rules ? But the Ishlaen Guard dont care at least  

I do have the Eidolian i use for fun, i will consider it for sure.

 

I would make the swap any day. A semi immortal wave that makes everyone reroll wounds of 1 and makes around 9 wounds per combat himself is way more useful then an extra attack on the turtle that might be dead anyway turn 3. But I really like your idea, I love monster lists and will consider it myself.

[DocKeule]

On 10/18/2018 at 12:43 AM, DantePQ said:

I think many Idonenth players play badly because of High Tide, I am recently playing Deepkins as much as Daughters of Khaine and they are awesome army to play with a lot of nuances. For know it's Eeel Spam Alpha Strike list just because I wanted something different from DoK. High Tide is a awesome bonus but what I observed is that other Deepkin players in my community just want to survive until High Tide but I guess it isn't how one should play Deepkins.

 

Yes there is some ponit there. I one does not reverse the tides the high tide is almost late game. In most scenarios if you just try to save your units for that third round your opponent will control the board by then and likely have all objectives locked in. The high tide is a nice extra at a point where both armies often have pretty much exausted their troops and it might give you the edge to be able to have all combats first but it is oftem much more psychological than a real effect (I had a game against Stormcast yesterday and my opponent would not even charge me in turn three).

[whispersofblood]

Anyone have experience with 12 man morrsarr units?

[mmimzie]

On 10/21/2018 at 1:14 AM, wanderingrogue said:

I'm curious to see people saying daughters of khaine is such a bad match up. I'm undefeated va dok with deepkin in tournies and casual at the moment. I actually think it's one of the few armies that give daughters some genuine problems 

I agree with this. Daughters to me just really can't deal with the deepkin alpha or a Deepkin turn 3 style play. Most armies don't bring shooting at all and the shooting they do bring (like kinari) aren't there to take out morathi they are just back field objective grabbing fodder.  Not to mention you don't even need to kill morathi to win 90% of games against daughters. Honestly, if the army has morathi i'm happy that's not more pts of witches.  The main killers of something like morathi is long range magic/mortal wounds. 

 

2 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

Anyone have experience with 12 man morrsarr units?

i started here i don't like it. The alpha is more important than the turn 3. The 12 eels is gear more toward turn 3 play as your are effectively wasting pts on ~6 eels that won't make it into combat against what you want to fight.  In the current meta, when you fight something you klll it, instantly or stall for time. What this means is you want 6 eels in base to base with your target so that you can fully destroy the target unit.  with a unit of 12  the extra 6 have a hard time getting in range to fight anything, and definitly won't be fighting your main target and the others on off shoot targets will be scattered and likely maybe 3-4 of them won't be in range to really get thier attacks off. Let alone set up in the first place via scryer. 

So that leaves waiting for turn 3 which 12 eels are better for as they are very good buff economy. Allowing you to do very effective buffing with only taking a generic king (the safer general option thank to cloud of midnight and soulscryer silliness).  Howwever a few buffs on whats left on 6 eels tends to be more than enough to close out any deepkin game where you make it to turn 3.  So the alpha strike or the early posturing seems to be more important than the big impact of turn 3.  Making sure you don't fall behind in pts for instance such that the swing in your favor on turn 3 is enough to give you a win on pts, or taking out key big killy units like a block or 2 of 30 witchs on turn 1. 

Edited October 22, 2018 by mmimzie