AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion

[Unter]

Hey Thralls are core to good lists.

Both the high placing Deepkin lists at BoBo (big English tourney) on the weekend played with I think 30 thralls split across 3 units.

They aren't superheroes, but they are very solid for what they do.

For example, you'd expect 10 thralls to do 8 wounds to a high wound monster with a 3+ save, that's without any buffs. 

They tear through multi-wound, high armour targets, which is a relatively rare commodity, and they are flexible enough to deal with hordes.

You'd expect around 9 wounds against infantry with a 4+ save, for example.

Crucially they also fight in both turns, remember you are still fighting with them after your opponent activates in his turn.

Again, not saying they are perfect, but they are very solid battleline.

 

[DantePQ]

It's not that Thralls are bad it's more about Eeels being much better point-wise then Thralls or pretty much anything else. 

Aspect of the Strom is quite good after some playtesting but worse then 6 Morssar, Thralls as well. 

The only thing going for them is Tidecaster general as he can reverse Tides which is crazy powerful. Also I wouldn't call battalions useless if you take Akhelian King it pretty much makes for sense to take 3 Eels less to have extra artifact and CP + Royal Council ability could be used, sure there is tax - you won't use SoulScryer but it gives you more flexibility. I just scrapped my Eeels army and will play BriomdarThrall heavy list with Aspect of the Storm. 

[Kugane]

2 hours ago, Unter said:

Hey Thralls are core to good lists.

Both the high placing Deepkin lists at BoBo (big English tourney) on the weekend played with I think 30 thralls split across 3 units.

They aren't superheroes, but they are very solid for what they do.

For example, you'd expect 10 thralls to do 8 wounds to a high wound monster with a 3+ save, that's without any buffs. 

They tear through multi-wound, high armour targets, which is a relatively rare commodity, and they are flexible enough to deal with hordes.

You'd expect around 9 wounds against infantry with a 4+ save, for example.

Crucially they also fight in both turns, remember you are still fighting with them after your opponent activates in his turn.

Again, not saying they are perfect, but they are very solid battleline.

 

That sounds nice. Did you manage to see the games? I am curious how they managed to get them in range. From personal experience opponents tend to know they are super strong and shoot them down turn 1 XD

[Rogue Sun]

2 hours ago, Kugane said:

That sounds nice. Did you manage to see the games? I am curious how they managed to get them in range. From personal experience opponents tend to know they are super strong and shoot them down turn 1 XD

You could put a more durable target in front of them. Can only target the closest unit with shooting.

[Gildaheir]

Hey folks, I'm interested in Idoneth, but I'm a bit tentative. My chief opposition would be Tzeentch demons/tzaangors and Nighthaunts/Death. We don't play hyper-competitive lists by any means, but we also don't intentionally cripple ourselves. Does Idoneth match up well with those? I'm trying to figure out what I'd like to play in AoS, and I'm struggling. I heard some whisperings that Beastmen might be on the horizon and am debating holding off until I know for sure if they are/aren't coming down the pipeline.

Some of my concern about Idoneth is I love the big models (Leviadon, Alloplexes, Aspects) and it sounds like they kinda stink? Also, do Idoneth play like Sylvaneth? That's who I had before, and I wound up hating their playstyle (mostly how damned slow they were and their relative weakness to ranged/mortal wounds). So, I'd like something that plays different.

[Kugane]

21 minutes ago, Rogue Sun said:

You could put a more durable target in front of them. Can only target the closest unit with shooting.

It is sometimes hard to pull off with stuff such as deepstriking stormcast eternals shooting from sides or behind, but I guess a unit of shield eels could do the trick. (I am yet to build mine, mostly used the turtle to hide models).

[Kugane]

17 minutes ago, Gildaheir said:

Hey folks, I'm interested in Idoneth, but I'm a bit tentative. My chief opposition would be Tzeentch demons/tzaangors and Nighthaunts/Death. We don't play hyper-competitive lists by any means, but we also don't intentionally cripple ourselves. Does Idoneth match up well with those? I'm trying to figure out what I'd like to play in AoS, and I'm struggling. I heard some whisperings that Beastmen might be on the horizon and am debating holding off until I know for sure if they are/aren't coming down the pipeline.

Some of my concern about Idoneth is I love the big models (Leviadon, Alloplexes, Aspects) and it sounds like they kinda stink? Also, do Idoneth play like Sylvaneth? That's who I had before, and I wound up hating their playstyle (mostly how damned slow they were and their relative weakness to ranged/mortal wounds). So, I'd like something that plays different.

The leviadon is quite good and you can generally fit in an allopex if needed. The aspects are not as good as other options, but considering how fragile the spear is, that is probably for the best. Miniatures that break easy are no fun to carry arouns after all 

Edited July 31, 2018 by Kugane

[Unter]

2 hours ago, Kugane said:

That sounds nice. Did you manage to see the games? I am curious how they managed to get them in range. From personal experience opponents tend to know they are super strong and shoot them down turn 1 XD

I saw bits and pieces on stream.

It really isn't about how you line up a thrall charge, or whatever, you just have the thralls, and if people are targetting them they aren't targetting your eels.

Both lists I think played 15-18 Morsarr, to give you some context. 

In that environment targetting the Thralls isn't a great idea.

To clarify, I think any strategy depending on Thralls to win the game will NOT work. But as a filler unit, used to control the board and objectives, they pack a good punch.

[Unter]

20 minutes ago, Gildaheir said:

Hey folks, I'm interested in Idoneth, but I'm a bit tentative. My chief opposition would be Tzeentch demons/tzaangors and Nighthaunts/Death. We don't play hyper-competitive lists by any means, but we also don't intentionally cripple ourselves. Does Idoneth match up well with those? I'm trying to figure out what I'd like to play in AoS, and I'm struggling. I heard some whisperings that Beastmen might be on the horizon and am debating holding off until I know for sure if they are/aren't coming down the pipeline.

Some of my concern about Idoneth is I love the big models (Leviadon, Alloplexes, Aspects) and it sounds like they kinda stink? Also, do Idoneth play like Sylvaneth? That's who I had before, and I wound up hating their playstyle (mostly how damned slow they were and their relative weakness to ranged/mortal wounds). So, I'd like something that plays different.

Allopexes are very poor, Leviadon is too, but I know some people disagree.

The strongest list is eel spam, which is extremely fast, and we have virtually no ranged damage output, so I wouldn't really compare to sylvaneth.

I'd say a 'balanced' Idoneth Army with all the fun stuff in is mid-lower tier, while an eel heavy army is just below top tier.

You can deploy so much stuff off the board and don't have any restrictions on when you come down, unlike say, Stormcast.

Magic is ok and alpha strike is one of the best in the game. Aspects are pointed about right, not too strong, not too weak. 

[Kugane]

15 minutes ago, Unter said:

I saw bits and pieces on stream.

It really isn't about how you line up a thrall charge, or whatever, you just have the thralls, and if people are targetting them they aren't targetting your eels.

Both lists I think played 15-18 Morsarr, to give you some context. 

In that environment targetting the Thralls isn't a great idea.

To clarify, I think any strategy depending on Thralls to win the game will NOT work. But as a filler unit, used to control the board and objectives, they pack a good punch.

I see! Nice to hear :). I generally use some thralls as bubble wrap for my leaders since shield eels leave quite a bit of gaps. Wish they could get into combat more often though =P

[Unter]

Haha yeah, mine always die too

Even a handful of them can cause some chaos though. 

3 of mine did the last 4 wounds of a stardrake the other night, game winning play as it opened up a Morsarr charge onto an Evocator block. 

It was a little lucky, but they still had a 40% chance of doing that damage, which isn't too unrealistic.

[Reuben Parker]

People have sort of identified talking here a core issue IDK have to play around. Thralls / Reavers are one of the frailest unit for points (maybe allopex) in the book. But they’re are best units for screening and zoning. In all other books I can think of the most numerous by model units are generally the best also for points to wounds. This makes it hard for IDK to screen as the best units for that are shield eels but they don’t take up as much space. 

 

I do think some small thrall units are useful as a second rank that engages on high tide with their attacks pumped up. It seems a bit weird fluff wise but you have the full soul royalty screening the half soul workers. 

[Drofnum]

I think for pure screening you would be better off just allying in some eternal guard.  Same survivability as Thralls for half the points. 

[Kugane]

18 minutes ago, Drofnum said:

I think for pure screening you would be better off just allying in some eternal guard.  Same survivability as Thralls for half the points. 

I think forgotten nightmares wont trigger with normal eternal guard, so the enemy can still shoot at whatever they are trying to screen. So not sure if that would work into our favour.

[Reuben Parker]

3 minutes ago, Kugane said:

I think forgotten nightmares wont trigger with normal eternal guard, so the enemy can still shoot at whatever they are trying to screen. So not sure if that would work into our favour.

I think it still works as it mentions it has to be the closest visible enemy unit I don’t think it matters if closest unit isn’t IDK. Obviously doesn’t work the other way your Allies can always be targeted. 

 

I also think some heartrenders can be useful as 80 points can sometimes left over and a flexible objective grabber. 

[Kugane]

1 minute ago, Reuben Parker said:

I think it still works as it mentions it has to be the closest visible enemy unit I don’t think it matters if closest unit isn’t IDK. Obviously doesn’t work the other way your Allies can always be targeted. 

 

I also think some heartrenders can be useful as 80 points can sometimes left over and a flexible objective grabber.  

I see :o, that is interresting, perhaps it is time to build some eternal guards I've been putting in storage for ages haha.

[Drofnum]

25 minutes ago, Reuben Parker said:

I think it still works as it mentions it has to be the closest visible enemy unit I don’t think it matters if closest unit isn’t IDK. Obviously doesn’t work the other way your Allies can always be targeted. 

 

I also think some heartrenders can be useful as 80 points can sometimes left over and a flexible objective grabber. 

Yeah exactly it works for Idoneth but does not work for their Allies, eels cant shield the eternal guard for example.

I did also think about heartrenders, I just dont know that they really give us something we dont have.  Their deepstrike is a bit more flexible than a Soulscryer but the soulscryer can take much more potent units with him and get them very reliable charges.  I hear heartrenders are normally just used for turn 3/4 objective grabs though so maybe they're worth it. I generally just find it hard to cap objectives with how few units/models I bring to a game so i think I would prefer the eternal guard.  I've also been playing most my games at 1500 though so 2k might be a bit better in regards to objective play.

[Reuben Parker]

Another advantage of eternal guard is they’re on 25mm meaning units with 1” reach can still fight over their heads from a second rank. 

[David Griffin]

1 hour ago, Drofnum said:

I think for pure screening you would be better off just allying in some eternal guard.  Same survivability as Thralls for half the points. 

I 100% agree with this. Every list I've written has 20 Eternal Guard. You can line them up across your deployment zone with Thralls within 3" for a nice pile in counterattack. They're also super tanky naturally and especially while in cover. 

And I've converted mine to look more like Namarti - just need to put some paint on them!

[wanderingrogue]

hey. I'm the guy that was on stream with deepkin last game at bobo.

just say but the thralls are super strong,especially in a meta where shooting is dropping off and with a turn 2 high tide.

 

[Nerdkingdan]

On 7/30/2018 at 8:34 PM, Manxs said:

The only things i have brought is the king a soulrender and tidecaster i also have a unit of thralls and one unit of revers 

 

but after looking at what you guys have said i was looking more in to this i will be looking to replace the tralls and the revers

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Nautilar

Leaders
Vulturnos, High King of the Deep (280)
- General
Isharann Tidecaster (100)
- Artefact: Arcane Pearl 
- Lore of the Deeps: Protective Barrier (Nautilar Tidecasters)
Isharann Soulscryer (100)
- Artefact: Black Pearl 

Battleline
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (320)
10 x Namarti Thralls (140)

Units
1 x Akhelian Allopexes (140)
10 x Namarti Reavers (140)

Behemoths
Akhelian Leviadon (380)

Battalions
Royal Council (140)
Akhelian Corps (100)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 98
 

 

Is this a legal list?   I didn't think you could use the same model twice to count in two different battalions?

[Reuben Parker]

49 minutes ago, Nerdkingdan said:

Is this a legal list?   I didn't think you could use the same model twice to count in two different battalions?

There’s no double model here. The three characters make the council everything else bar the thralls make the Corp. 

[Nerdkingdan]

1 hour ago, Nerdkingdan said:

Is this a legal list?   I didn't think you could use the same model twice to count in two different battalions?

Don’t both need a king?   Don’t have my book with me, could be wrong.

Betting I’m remembering wrong.

 

Edited August 1, 2018 by Nerdkingdan

[Reezark_SP]

11 minutes ago, Nerdkingdan said:

Don’t both need a king?   Don’t have my book with me, could be wrong.

Betting I’m remembering wrong.

 

Volturnos counts as a king.

[Azamar]

1 hour ago, Nerdkingdan said:

Don’t both need a king?   Don’t have my book with me, could be wrong.

Betting I’m remembering wrong.

 

I don’t think you need the king for the Akhelian Corp.