AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

[Havelocke]

19 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

How far is the spacing on the front of that stagger? It looks like for every model you stagger you lose something like 1/4 inch of frontage. That means every 5 models will lose 1 models worth of frontage on units greater than 5.

If you want to maximize frontage, you'll lose about 1/4" per second rank model compared to a base-to-base line. Every other 32mm base (1.25") is being replaced with a 1" gap instead. That gives you an 11.25 inch frontage for a 10 model squad.

Of course, that's also for protecting against casualties. If your only concern is screening the maximum possible area, you can use a >-----< formation with 1" gaps for minimal lost frontage. You just have to deal with losing five models as soon as you lose one.

[Mirage8112]

1 hour ago, Havelocke said:

If you want to maximize frontage, you'll lose about 1/4" per second rank model compared to a base-to-base line. Every other 32mm base (1.25") is being replaced with a 1" gap instead. That gives you an 11.25 inch frontage for a 10 model squad.

Interesting. That means a unit of 10 dryads will have roughly the same amount of frontage as a squad of 5 T-revenants (Since 5 tree revenants + 1” gap between 32mm base = 9” total). Unless of course you choose to string them out and are prepared to lose them all to a charge. Although I can’t see anybody making that choice in game when shooting is a thing. 1 wound goes through and you lose 5-15 dryads because your string collapses? No thank you.  

This ties in rather neatly with how I see dryads/t-revs evolving in 3.0. Where the first part of the match involves multiple small units of T-revs teleporting around the board, screening enemy approaches to objectives (forcing them to spend a turn removing the screen before they can capture the objective), while the branchwraith summons replacement screens who teleport in to replace them.

If I can focus most all the heavy hitters in the army on one side of the board (and force the other side to waste time clearing screens) then I can have 80% of my army fighting 30% of my opponents in the first half, and then teleport to do the same thing again in the second.   

[Tizianolol]

Guys have you understood how new coherency work? U cant put a single unit in a line?

[Kaylethia]

Just now, Tizianolol said:

Guys have you understood how new coherency work? U cant put a single unit in a line?

Up to five models. Above that, and you need to stagger the models, either how it was described a few posts earlier, or rank-and-file style.

[brattenbergus]

Evening, folks! 

Wanted to finally begin Collecting an army and wanted to start with an 1000p list. How does this list look for 1000p?

Thanks! 

Allegiance: Sylvaneth
Branchwraith (80)
- Deepwood Spell: Throne of Vines
Treelord Ancient (260)
- Deepwood Spell: Regrowth
10 x Spite-Revenants (120)
10 x Tree-Revenants (160)
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (190)
- Greatswords
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (190)
- Greatswords

Total: 1000 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 67
 

 

[Kiekeboe]

21 hours ago, Abstract_duck said:

Quite sure to get it off if you: Cast Throne for the +2 (with a Chalice +1 bonus in the forest), Balewind with the Chalice +3 from forest and throne, signature spell for the +4 with chalice. 

I'm also going to try this but keep in mind that Balewind resets the Throne. A move OR set-up resets the ToV counter. I'm going to try the same thing but have a Branchwraith with the extra cast artifact pop a Spell Portal next to the Warsong Revenant and have a mini Tecnado going on. Going to try this in a local 'goodbye-aos2' tournament. 

[UnholyRevenant]

Had a game at the weekend using the new Allarielle rules. I'm pleasantly impressed with how she performed. No she is not a combat monster, or a scary caster, or a 360noscope mlg shooter. But she was active in every phase of the game. Constantly providing heals and spells. Constantly plinking away with metamorphosis and her spear, and properly supported ( ie not solo yolo the entire enemy army) she chunked units in combat. She was also hard for our opponents to kill. You have to commit to bursting her down or she heals right back up. The summon also lets you toolbox the correct unit for the current table state. If you expect to out cast Teclis or Nagash or fight Archaon or Morathi you will be sorely disappointed. But keep her screened, deal with threats to her, and she will last the entire game. While being an amazing tool box support piece. All in all very happy. This comming from someone who had boxed my Sylvaneth and all but forgotten them. List was as follows: 

Heart wood.

Allarielle

Arch Rev

Branchwraith

30 Dryads

2x 5 Tree Revs

6 Hunters with Scythes

3 Hunters with Bows.

Summoned another 3 with bows. All 6 kept behind a wood and near the horn of the consort on the wraith for some fairly consistent and deadly shooting.

[martinwolf]

I played a game with the Warsong Revenant in Gnarlroot, with 3d6 pick 2 dice casting, Balewind, Spell Portals and Throne of Vines. It was ridiculous how much mortal wounds I put out into my opponents whole army. To be fair, we played Focal Points and he had a foot slogging Ogor Mawtribes army with only one Stonehorn, but still, the damage was crazy. I kept casting Throne of Vines and thus increasing the damage output every turn. It felt dirty and I probably won't do it again, but it definitely has legs as they say. But still, you need to get all this stuff up and running and it's a heavy investment in points.

The game was then ultimately won by the new wood placement rules. I was able to put a single tree behind his lines and teleport one unit there to grab his two back objectives.

Interesting times ahead for Sylvaneth for sure. Might not be top tier, but I see them having more chances.

Edited June 8, 2021 by martinwolf
typo

[Grimmlock619]

Played with the new Wyldwood rules. Finally, some good things are happening. One Wyldwood was a small little Cresent to be able to teleport and cap objective. And did 13 MW in 3 turns in the charge phase with wizards and endless spell near by for the 4+ trigger. It actually made my opponent think twice about going near the woods.

[Xil]

You know whats great?

That LRL can cast entomb on your neatly organised new coherency units and *Pooof* half your unit is gone

 

Edit: Yeah, better setup in 3 rows...

Edited June 8, 2021 by Xil

[Popisdead]

On 6/3/2021 at 4:34 PM, Havelocke said:

Man, I wish. Roar only lasts for the combat phase, though. I'm still hoping they remove Inspiring Presence, or put some restrictions on it.

I kinda like things are a whole phase that are smaller bonuses.  

I'm guessing AoS will have 9th ed 40k Bravery where you test, then lose a model for each 1 you roll if you fail your bravery.  So inspiring Presence may not even need to be as significant?  

On 6/4/2021 at 6:02 AM, Landohammer said:

I am pretty excited. She is the best monster in our book and she just got flat out better. I worry she will get a points increase though. I am optimistic that bravery will be more important than ever so I'm hoping Spites (and thus her synnergy with spites) will actually become significant. 

I'm kinda hoping she or the Branchwych get the priest keyword.  I"m not certain from the rules I've seen so far you can dispel priest abilities if you don't have a priest.  I  believe it was the hero who could use an action to dispel a spell.

 

 

Something that's come to light with Unit Coherency is with Kurnoth Hunters being 3-6 unless you take 6 and lose one to shooting reach has become the defacto stat after rend meaning Swords lose out (again) to Scythes.  3 swords are still good, you just won't see 6.  This also means dryads combat getting a bit of a boost.

I haven't played 40k 9th ed yet but i'm wondering if we will see more MSU (need a cmd point to stand and shoot) for armies like Warherd at the like.

The biggest thing for me is the excitement of getting some games soon and the 6 months of a fresh new game with lots to try.  Even if our book is still bottom tier we have 6 months of trying things that will feel fresh   Plus the Warsong Revenant may have an effect we don't yet see.  Hopefully mine is base coated and glazed ready for highlighting  

[Landohammer]

24 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

I kinda like things are a whole phase that are smaller bonuses.  

I'm guessing AoS will have 9th ed 40k Bravery where you test, then lose a model for each 1 you roll if you fail your bravery.  So inspiring Presence may not even need to be as significant?  

I'm kinda hoping she or the Branchwych get the priest keyword.  I"m not certain from the rules I've seen so far you can dispel priest abilities if you don't have a priest.  I  believe it was the hero who could use an action to dispel a spell.

 

 

Something that's come to light with Unit Coherency is with Kurnoth Hunters being 3-6 unless you take 6 and lose one to shooting reach has become the defacto stat after rend meaning Swords lose out (again) to Scythes.  3 swords are still good, you just won't see 6.  This also means dryads combat getting a bit of a boost.

I haven't played 40k 9th ed yet but i'm wondering if we will see more MSU (need a cmd point to stand and shoot) for armies like Warherd at the like.

The biggest thing for me is the excitement of getting some games soon and the 6 months of a fresh new game with lots to try.  Even if our book is still bottom tier we have 6 months of trying things that will feel fresh   Plus the Warsong Revenant may have an effect we don't yet see.  Hopefully mine is base coated and glazed ready for highlighting  

Yea I think we will adopt the 40k bravery method, and today's preview mentioned that "Inspiring Presence can only benefit one unit:" which I interpret to be mean "one unit per game" similar to 40k. So maybe bravery will matter again. But with so much immunity out there its hard to say.  

With the unit coherency rules the way they are, we could see range go away in favor of "ranks". The coherency rule just doesn't work well with pile ins, unless a "consolidation" move is added. Cavalry are going to have a really rough time of it, since their bases are huge and their ranges are usually quite short. 9 man squads of Kurnoth are gonna be quite risky.

Yea please let the Branchwych get the Priest Keyword so we have a reason to use her finally lol. 

I wouldn't hold your breath about the Warsong Revenant. I think that is her warscroll for 3rd :/. But hey, at least she is better than a 740pt combat model with 4 attacks 🤷‍♂️

 

[Abstract_duck]

On 6/8/2021 at 9:02 AM, brattenbergus said:

Evening, folks! 

Wanted to finally begin Collecting an army and wanted to start with an 1000p list. How does this list look for 1000p?

Thanks! 

Allegiance: Sylvaneth
Branchwraith (80)
- Deepwood Spell: Throne of Vines
Treelord Ancient (260)
- Deepwood Spell: Regrowth
10 x Spite-Revenants (120)
10 x Tree-Revenants (160)
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (190)
- Greatswords
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (190)
- Greatswords

Total: 1000 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 67
 

 

Looks good! I'd change one little thing though:

a max unit of spite rev's is 200 points, so I'd change the 10x tree rev's to 5x tree rev's. You probably want to use the tree rev's to capture free objectives and perhaps kill off a wounded hero or screen an objective you own. having 10 instead of 5 tree rev's in one unit isn't really going to help that much.

Do keep in mind that spite rev's are mostly glass cannons. Most people recommend dryads instead, especially since you have the damage covered with kurnoth's. I like a big stack of spite-rev's though 

[Kaylethia]

3 hours ago, Abstract_duck said:

having 10 instead of 5 tree rev's in one unit isn't really going to help that much.

10 is better for combat activations and unwounded heroes while giving up a bit of output compared to 2x5, as two leaders have good odds with their single dice rerolls if you give them the 2 damage weapons. 2x5 has better odds of making the charge.

[Abstract_duck]

7 minutes ago, Kaylethia said:

10 is better for combat activations and unwounded heroes while giving up a bit of output compared to 2x5, as two leaders have good odds with their single dice rerolls if you give them the 2 damage weapons. 2x5 has better odds of making the charge.

Fair, though I feel like their output is still too little to kill off an unwounded hero if they are unbuffed, though. at that point you might be using 160 points to kill off a 80 point unit over a few rounds since you're looking at about 6 per turn if you get all of them in range against a unit with a 5+ save - granted, the banner helps. But yeah, it depends on your goals. I'd love to hear if they are actually quite decent hunters, though. 

Edited June 9, 2021 by Abstract_duck

[brattenbergus]

3 hours ago, Abstract_duck said:

Looks good! I'd change one little thing though:

a max unit of spite rev's is 200 points, so I'd change the 10x tree rev's to 5x tree rev's. You probably want to use the tree rev's to capture free objectives and perhaps kill off a wounded hero or screen an objective you own. having 10 instead of 5 tree rev's in one unit isn't really going to help that much.

Do keep in mind that spite rev's are mostly glass cannons. Most people recommend dryads instead, especially since you have the damage covered with kurnoth's. I like a big stack of spite-rev's though 

Great input! I missed that discount on the last 5 Spites get. 

Yeah, I was thinking about getting some dryads aswell, but as I want to start slow I wanted to use the dryads I have for summoning. 

Thanks alot! 

Edited June 9, 2021 by brattenbergus

[Kaylethia]

1 hour ago, Abstract_duck said:

Fair, though I feel like their output is still too little to kill off an unwounded hero if they are unbuffed, though. at that point you might be using 160 points to kill off a 80 point unit over a few rounds since you're looking at about 6 per turn if you get all of them in range against a unit with a 5+ save - granted, the banner helps. But yeah, it depends on your goals. I'd love to hear if they are actually quite decent hunters, though. 

Unbuffed, using only their 1-damage profile on all models and without using Martial Memories, their statistical output looks like this: 10 T-revs with blades

[Abstract_duck]

59 minutes ago, Kaylethia said:

Unbuffed, using only their 1-damage profile on all models and without using Martial Memories, their statistical output looks like this: 10 T-revs with blades

Thanks! That seems a bit more decent then I thought, especially if you can ping off a few wounds with your ranged!

[Kaylethia]

Forgot to add, the graph is against a 4+ save without rerolls.

On the other hand, the single dice reroll pushes the graph a bit more toward the top end, more so if you have the leader with a glaive, and the new command ability that gives +1 to hit pushes it even further.

[Arnied3]

Some great chats in here about Allarielle guys thanks for that! Having finally just finished painting her after 2yrs just looking at the box on my shelf. I have to say I am intrigued to get her on the board and see what happens. 

[Popisdead]

21 hours ago, Landohammer said:

Yea I think we will adopt the 40k bravery method, and today's preview mentioned that "Inspiring Presence can only benefit one unit:" which I interpret to be mean "one unit per game" similar to 40k. So maybe bravery will matter again. But with so much immunity out there its hard to say.  

With the unit coherency rules the way they are, we could see range go away in favor of "ranks". The coherency rule just doesn't work well with pile ins, unless a "consolidation" move is added. Cavalry are going to have a really rough time of it, since their bases are huge and their ranges are usually quite short. 9 man squads of Kurnoth are gonna be quite risky.

Yea please let the Branchwych get the Priest Keyword so we have a reason to use her finally lol. 

I wouldn't hold your breath about the Warsong Revenant. I think that is her warscroll for 3rd :/. But hey, at least she is better than a 740pt combat model with 4 attacks 🤷‍♂️

I was listening to the people on the Honest Wargamer talk about ranks vs reach.  I quite like Reach but I am aware it brings about problems.  Base-size which shouldn't be an issue by now, though we are seeing the odd person still trickle back from 8th debating rebasing their army.  Another being inconsistency.  A bullgor axe is physically 2" long, noticeably longer than the length of a Wildwood Ranger axe and half the range.  <shakes head>.  

I worry they will change to ranks again as a fight against FW doing Old World (absolutely no good comes from that announcement).  I remembered Combat Resolution yesterday and just shook my head to what a bad mechanic it was. "congratulations your 20 goblins always beat your elite elf because of dice spiking,... oh also they cost 1/5 what the elf is."  

 

4 attacks that hits on 3s... GJ GW,.. gj... sigh...

[Landohammer]

@PopisdeadSomebody in the rumor thread pointed out that the new Stormcast warscrolls are fairly visible in the twitch stream, and they did in fact have melee ranges on their weapon profiles. So I guess that idea is toast.

However todays preview revealed a "Grand Strategy" which is functionally a secondary objectives. Thats pretty huge, since it effectively swings a big portion of the game away from armies just belly flopping at objectives. And this particular one is super useful for Tree Revs or Dryads.

[Mirage8112]

On 6/8/2021 at 4:07 AM, UnholyRevenant said:

Had a game at the weekend using the new Allarielle rules. I'm pleasantly impressed with how she performed. No she is not a combat monster, or a scary caster, or a 360noscope mlg shooter. But she was active in every phase of the game. Constantly providing heals and spells. Constantly plinking away with metamorphosis and her spear, and properly supported ( ie not solo yolo the entire enemy army) she chunked units in combat. She was also hard for our opponents to kill. You have to commit to bursting her down or she heals right back up. The summon also lets you toolbox the correct unit for the current table state.

This is largely consistent with what I'm hearing from other players who use her in this manner. A general feeling of surprise at how versatile she is provided you don't try to pretend she's Skarbrand. 

 

On 6/8/2021 at 4:09 AM, martinwolf said:

I played a game with the Warsong Revenant in Gnarlroot, with 3d6 pick 2 dice casting, Balewind, Spell Portals and Throne of Vines. It was ridiculous how much mortal wounds I put out into my opponents whole army. To be fair, we played Focal Points and he had a foot slogging Ogor Mawtribes army with only one Stonehorn, but still, the damage was crazy. I kept casting Throne of Vines and thus increasing the damage output every turn. It felt dirty and I probably won't do it again, but it definitely has legs as they say.

This is also great news and about what I expected. Having a resilient multi-wound caster with easy access to a casting bonus (and the ability to increase that) seems to have plugged a hole in our army that was keeping certain builds from being fully viable. 

 

On 6/9/2021 at 4:47 AM, Kaylethia said:

Unbuffed, using only their 1-damage profile on all models and without using Martial Memories, their statistical output looks like this: 10 T-revs with blades

Helpful. Although this dovetails nicely with something I've been thinking about for a while now. 

In the games I've played with the Winterleaf wargrove, I've always been surprised at how much extra damage exploding sixes generates. Extra damage on a group of 6 hunters certainly scratches the "wow look at all that damage" itch when you see an enemy unit get obliterated under the sheer volume of attacks. 

However, something occurred to me as I've played more games; big blocks of hunters don't really need the extra damage. Most of the time 6 hunters are strong enough that they should wipe just about anything but the most stubborn units with their basic attacks alone. Increasing nuke bomb's damage by 15% doesn't necessarily result in more useful damage, since nuke bombs already wipe just about everything out. This makes me thing that pairing Winterleaf with hunters isn't necessarily the best way to maximize the wargrove's damage output. 

This makes me think about T-revs. They are one of the most mobile unit in the game, and get a free re-roll in the charge phase thanks to martial memories. They are also one of the few units in the codex with access to rend. Paired with the new command abilities there seems to be some rather interesting opportunities to kit T-revs to be much more effective ambush killers.

Hit them with the "all out attack" command ability, and then give them the +1 attack from the Arch-rev "call to battle" CA. Now a unit of 10 T-revs is going from 20 attacks, to 30, hitting on 3's (with 6's exploding) just about anywhere on the board. On average that's about 10 wounds vs a 4+ save (give or take). That's a reasonable amount of damage to be able to put just about anywhere in a 160pt unit, and will absolutely wreck support characters with a 5+ save.  

 

On 6/9/2021 at 9:10 AM, Popisdead said:

A bullgor axe is physically 2" long, noticeably longer than the length of a Wildwood Ranger axe and half the range.  <shakes head>.  

Well, if we're talking realism, its isn't solely the length of the weapon but the way the warrior uses the weapon. A claymore has a length of around 5 feet, but you can only hit somebody within 3 feet because the thing is so damn heavily, and you have to hit the target with the center of the blade. An épée however has a length of 3 feet, but with a well placed lunge its range is nearly 7 feet. 

One would imagine an elf with a light blade almost as long as he is would have a more effective range than a big cow with a crude and extremely heavy axe. 
 

 

On 6/8/2021 at 11:42 AM, Landohammer said:

Yea I think we will adopt the 40k bravery method, and today's preview mentioned that "Inspiring Presence can only benefit one unit:" which I interpret to be mean "one unit per game" similar to 40k. So maybe bravery will matter again. But with so much immunity out there its hard to say.  

I took this to mean one unit per phase. i.e. you can't use multiple CP to make more than one unit immune to battleshock per player turn. Once per game seems too drastic a change. 

 

On 6/9/2021 at 9:29 AM, Landohammer said:

However todays preview revealed a "Grand Strategy" which is functionally a secondary objectives. Thats pretty huge, since it effectively swings a big portion of the game away from armies just belly flopping at objectives. And this particular one is super useful for Tree Revs or Dryads.

 I agree. This is huge change. And it's likely only one of several we'll have to choose from which may drastically affect the early game strategy.  

 

Edited June 10, 2021 by Mirage8112

[Landohammer]

4 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

 

I took this to mean one unit per phase. i.e. you can't use multiple CP to make more than one unit immune to battleshock per player turn. Once per game seems too drastic a change. 

 

 I agree. This is huge change. And it's likely only one of several we'll have to choose from which may drastically affect the early game strategy.  

 

You may be right, it was definitely vague. 

But inspiring presence is functionally the same in both games, and so it would be strange to see them nerf it into the ground in 40k but leave it largely intact in AoS. Not only is it once per battle in 40k, its also 2CP. And it was a lot less powerful in 40k since squads are generally smaller. 

But GW is far from consistent in its rules writing. So who knows lol. 

[Popisdead]

On 6/9/2021 at 12:14 PM, Mirage8112 said:

Well, if we're talking realism,

I'm not.