AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

[Arzalyn]

1 hour ago, Landohammer said:

I played another game with the new codex and new GHB vs Ogors. I lost 22-23 but it mostly came down to Sword Hunters whiffing  vs a Tyrant. I brought a Dreadwood Reaping list for max mobility. Here is a quick summary of high points. Please correct me if I got any rules wrong.

Could you share your list? And did you find the 2 extra teleports for the spites that Dreadwood give relevant enough? (assuming you didn't choose it just for the spites to be battleline).

2 hours ago, Landohammer said:

My initial assumption was that Ethereal Durthu was the auto-choice. But honestly Warsinger is probably the true-autotake. Most of our army is movement 5, and its honestly our biggest weakness. We are really vulnerable to well placed redeploys and it can cost us games when 500pt units of Hunters or 370pt units of Durthu's don't connect their charges. Many of the objectives will start the game 8-9+ inches away form deployment zones, and that oftens means you are praying for a 3+ run roll. 

Warsinger is a +60% movement buff and it can effect half your army. Its too good to pass on in almost every situation

Yeah, if I'm not taking Spellsinger I take Warsinger in most of my lists. The only exception so far were for Oakenbrow and Haverstboon. In Oakenbrow I fell you can try to focus more on summoning trees in order to abuse the treelords all having the walk the spirit path (also Ethereal Durthu that don't degrade sound pretty cool!). In Harvestboon if you get more than 3 units of lancers/seekers a good part of the list ending being out of range after the pre-game movement.

 

14 hours ago, mmimzie said:

 

Don't be too sad. I think they were already designed with a lot of this in mind. I think you'll have to commit more with them, but you can actually get all of them to reliably fight the same target. As MSU if you have 3 units of dragon flies 2 of which are lancers and your charge all 3 in.

You can pick both your lancers to fight first and then strike and fadeaway one of the two units. Then your 3rd dragon fly unit can then pile in using thier 6" pile. This will let you pretty reliably get first attack with 3 of your dragon fly units on the same target. 

This will leave you in combat, but the target you fought should have had a few teeth kicked in. 

I think they work well enough in the meta in bounty hunters getting the damage buff, but not being vulnerable to bounty hunters.  Supported by tree revs to claim objectives you could have a very powerful army. Though lack a bit of punch for some precision objective play. 

Yeah I completely forgot about their 6" pile in. It should help them all fight if we keep them MSU. If GV units become common enough I can see the Lancers focused list abusing the Harvestboon pre-game move to try to clean those units, but outside of this I'm having a hard time fitting them in my lists. Their utility seen to be their high movement and the strike-first and fade combos, but, I at least in theory,don't think the have the damage to make the combo significant enough.

[Frowny]

Can someone clarify for me- the seekers. Can they ressurect themselves? Can they ressurect the lancers?

[Landohammer]

37 minutes ago, Arzalyn said:

Could you share your list? And did you find the 2 extra teleports for the spites that Dreadwood give relevant enough? (assuming you didn't choose it just for the spites to be battleline).

 

Durthu (Warsinger, Gladius)

Lady of Vines (regrowth)

10 Spites

10 Spites

5 Spites

3 Sword Hunters

3 Scythe Hunters

5 Gossamids

Gladewyrm

 

I primarily took Dreadwood bc I wanted my Spites in the Expert Conquerers batallion. I never used the double strike and fade but I did use the double walk the spirit paths to steal two objectives late game. Reaping was helpful because it gives the ability to start the teleport at 12" out (but ending the teleport is still 9" AFAIK)

Overall I felt like dreadwood lists were excellent at achieving battle tactics, grands and stealing objectives, but the list struggled in big combats. Admittedly it was a poor matchup bc my opponent brought giant Glutton and Irongut deathstars, and I just didn't have the tools to kill those guys. 

I am going to give it another try (this time with 30 spites and drycha) this thursday and see if I can't make it work better. 

[Domize]

So, this is probably not super viable, but more of a fun meme build.

Harvestboon – The Dwindling
Warsong Revenant – General, Spellsinger, Vespereal Gem, Verdous Harmony - 305
Treelord Ancient - Regrowth - 360
6x Kurnoth Hunters with Scythes – 500 – Bounty Hunters
3x Lancers -210 – Bounty Hunters
3x Lancers 210 – Bounty Hunters
3x Seekers – 235
5x Tree Revs – 110 – Expert Conquerors 
Spiteswarm Hive – 40
1970/2000

With this you could have almost your entire army in the enemy's face turn 1?

• Seekers and lancers can move 12" pre-game, then another 12-14" in their movement. Should be close for a charge.
• Treelord ancient can place his wood anywhere on the battlefield, so place it near enemy.
• Warsong Revenant can cast Spiteswarm Hive through the wood that the Treelord Ancient placed (with re-roll from The Dwindling)
• Treelord Ancient can teleport to the placed wood to activate Spiteswarm Hive (Edit: ignore this...)
• Kurnoth Hunters teleport to the wood and now have a 6" charge to make from Spiteswarm (Edit: Nope, still 9"..)

Tree revenants and Warsong Revenant can just go to any objectives left behind. Could be very risky but fun.

Edit: Just remembered Spiteswarm Hive has to be activated at end of Hero phase...

Edited June 21, 2022 by Domize

[Jaskier]

17 minutes ago, Frowny said:

Can someone clarify for me- the seekers. Can they ressurect themselves? Can they ressurect the lancers?

Yes, they can resurrect themselves, Lancers and Kurnoths (and anything smaller.) Their ability is worded as 'friendly unit in range' and in AoS units are always in range of themselves for things like that. 

[berto880]

How will work everdusk with automatic wound like kurnoth greatsword ?

[Arzalyn]

37 minutes ago, Domize said:

Kurnoth Hunters teleport to the wood and now have a 6" charge to make from Spiteswarm (Edit: Nope, still 9"..)

You can still do it no? Place the hive in range of the Kurnoth and it gives the buff for the rest of the turn. You don't teleport them until the end of your movement phase.

I tough about doing similar but using the gossamid/drycha and sending them with the woods to weaken a target so the lancers/seekers could finish it off. You could even use the warsong/wych spell to do even more damage if you place the ancient tree within 3" of multiple units and don't need the reroll to cast the hive.

8 minutes ago, berto880 said:

How will work everdusk with automatic wound like kurnoth greatsword ?

You mean the mortal wounds on hits of 6? In this edition multiple effects on the same roll don't stack, you have to choose just one to apply. This make everdusk better with scythes and a nombo with the swords.

56 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

I primarily took Dreadwood bc I wanted my Spites in the Expert Conquerers batallion. I never used the double strike and fade but I did use the double walk the spirit paths to steal two objectives late game. Reaping was helpful because it gives the ability to start the teleport at 12" out (but ending the teleport is still 9" AFAIK)

Overall I felt like dreadwood lists were excellent at achieving battle tactics, grands and stealing objectives, but the list struggled in big combats. Admittedly it was a poor matchup bc my opponent brought giant Glutton and Irongut deathstars, and I just didn't have the tools to kill those guys. 

I am going to give it another try (this time with 30 spites and drycha) this thursday and see if I can't make it work better. 

Yeah, reaping looks really good with what dreadwood offers, I just wish it worked the the Lady and Kurnoth range as well, but maybe that would be too strong. You could change the Durthu and the Lady for Drycha and the Ancient, if you want more action in our opponent deploy and the spite buff + more ranged output.

How did the spites perfomed and the gladewyrm? I imagine the spites can delivery a good amount of mortal wounds, but their footprint may be a issue as you said previously.  Did the MSU unit did enough damage or is better to have at least 10 of them? I love the wyrm model, but having to roll a 3+ to both of its effect make me hate its rules... (Last game I used it in 6 rolls i rolled a 3+ for it once).

[Warbossironteef]

58 minutes ago, Domize said:

So, this is probably not super viable, but more of a fun meme build.

Harvestboon – The Dwindling
Warsong Revenant – General, Spellsinger, Vespereal Gem, Verdous Harmony - 305
Treelord Ancient - Regrowth - 360
6x Kurnoth Hunters with Scythes – 500 – Bounty Hunters
3x Lancers -210 – Bounty Hunters
3x Lancers 210 – Bounty Hunters
3x Seekers – 235
5x Tree Revs – 110 – Expert Conquerors 
Spiteswarm Hive – 40
1970/2000

With this you could have almost your entire army in the enemy's face turn 1?

• Seekers and lancers can move 12" pre-game, then another 12-14" in their movement. Should be close for a charge.
• Treelord ancient can place his wood anywhere on the battlefield, so place it near enemy.
• Warsong Revenant can cast Spiteswarm Hive through the wood that the Treelord Ancient placed (with re-roll from The Dwindling)
• Treelord Ancient can teleport to the placed wood to activate Spiteswarm Hive (Edit: ignore this...)
• Kurnoth Hunters teleport to the wood and now have a 6" charge to make from Spiteswarm (Edit: Nope, still 9"..)

Tree revenants and Warsong Revenant can just go to any objectives left behind. Could be very risky but fun.

Edit: Just remembered Spiteswarm Hive has to be activated at end of Hero phase...

Nothing is stopping you from casting the Spiteswarm on the Hunters prior to moving through the trees. They keep the +3 to charge until the end of the turn. :) 

[Landohammer]

4 minutes ago, Arzalyn said:

 

How did the spites perfomed and the gladewyrm? I imagine the spites can delivery a good amount of mortal wounds, but their footprint may be a issue as you said previously.  Did the MSU unit did enough damage or is better to have at least 10 of them? I love the wyrm model, but having to roll a 3+ to both of its effect make me hate its rules... (Last game I used it in 6 rolls i rolled a 3+ for it once).

The spites did fine vs 4+ save stuff. When they had to deal with 3+ save stuff or better their output dramatically dropped. I am strongly considering swapping out regrowth for Treesong. The extra rend seems more important than a swingy heal. 

I wasn't impressed with a 5 man squad honestly. I would rather have dryads for screens or tree revs for cheap grabbers. I am sticking to 10 going forward. I probably will never use TLA at his current points level if i'm being honest. 

So me and the Gladewyrm go way back. I love the model, and its not terrible. It is just usually eclipsed by the Hive. But now that we have a Battle Tactic that you can complete by killing a unit with a spell, and it got a points drop, I justified including it again.

Its appealing to me because A) its huge and can actually screen out large infantry units. B) its stacks well with our forest heal for a potential D3+1 heal on multiple units and C) It triggers the forest 4+ mortal wounds and D) its damage can potentially give you a battle tactic as mentioned above. 

In this particular game it pulled of a 3 wound heal, failed to damage the opponent, and then got dispelled in their hero phase. So while it didn't do much, it did present enough of a threat that my opponent felt like they had to burn a heroic action to attempt to get rid of it. Most opponents arent going to let a potential multi-healing multi-damaging endless spell run around, and a 7 is hard to beat reliably. 

 

[Frowny]

Some observations-

Seekers ressurection themselves seems very strong. They also seem just better than lancers... They actually do plausibly more damage than lance

For the warsong bomb, is it just me in or no is the branchwych spell identical? It seems a lot lot cheaper. Goes great with the artifact to cast through wildwoods and another reliable caster to put it out there.

Allarielle seems actually pretty good now, i hadn't seen that you could save the ressurect and it's +1/turn. Using it on t4 goes off on a 2+, which is pretty reliable. Gives her a nice failsafe.

If taking allarielle, i think you would definitely want one of the + casting seasons/wargroves. 3 casts without anything to buff them seems insufficient. 

Is there value to units of 6 seekers? Keeps them around long enough to be ressurected, and they hit pretty darn hard on their own, about as much as hunters. 

[Warbossironteef]

Anyone here have familiarity with round 60 mm bases? If you have a unit of 6 Lancers or Seekers, have 4 in a line and then 2 in the second row in between two in the front row, will there be enough space to get all 6 into 2 inch range?

[Warbossironteef]

38 minutes ago, Frowny said:

Some observations-

Seekers ressurection themselves seems very strong. They also seem just better than lancers... They actually do plausibly more damage than lance

For the warsong bomb, is it just me in or no is the branchwych spell identical? It seems a lot lot cheaper. Goes great with the artifact to cast through wildwoods and another reliable caster to put it out there.

Allarielle seems actually pretty good now, i hadn't seen that you could save the ressurect and it's +1/turn. Using it on t4 goes off on a 2+, which is pretty reliable. Gives her a nice failsafe.

If taking allarielle, i think you would definitely want one of the + casting seasons/wargroves. 3 casts without anything to buff them seems insufficient. 

Is there value to units of 6 seekers? Keeps them around long enough to be ressurected, and they hit pretty darn hard on their own, about as much as hunters. 

I think for sure 6 Seekers could be good. 2x3 is also good for healing multiple units, but I like Lancers and think they have a good place in the army. 

Don't underestimate their extra speed. Also if you're brining other units, it allows you to strike first with your Lancers and then save your Strike and Fade for a unit of Kurnoth or Durthu or whatever. So you can have some nice, one-sided combat phases. 

[Landohammer]

41 minutes ago, Frowny said:

Some observations-

Seekers ressurection themselves seems very strong. They also seem just better than lancers... They actually do plausibly more damage than lance

For the warsong bomb, is it just me in or no is the branchwych spell identical? It seems a lot lot cheaper. Goes great with the artifact to cast through wildwoods and another reliable caster to put it out there.

Allarielle seems actually pretty good now, i hadn't seen that you could save the ressurect and it's +1/turn. Using it on t4 goes off on a 2+, which is pretty reliable. Gives her a nice failsafe.

If taking allarielle, i think you would definitely want one of the + casting seasons/wargroves. 3 casts without anything to buff them seems insufficient. 

Is there value to units of 6 seekers? Keeps them around long enough to be ressurected, and they hit pretty darn hard on their own, about as much as hunters. 

I believe the seekers are on a 4+ to hit with their big attack correct? So Seekers will essentially require all out attack, but will do a ton of damage, while Lancers don't necessarily need the AOA to reliably hit, and they have that all important ASF. They are also 25 points cheaper and faster.

One is a super efficient hit and run unit, while another is a jack of all trades support unit. I think Harvestboon armies will likely prefer to run 2 units of lancers and 1 unit of Seekers. 

3 minutes ago, Warbossironteef said:

Anyone here have familiarity with round 60 mm bases? If you have a unit of 6 Lancers or Seekers, have 4 in a line and then 2 in the second row in between two in the front row, will there be enough space to get all 6 into 2 inch range?

I think if you "honeycomb" the unit as you say in the 4+2 formation and separate the front row by 1" exactly, it should allow you the 9-10 extra MM you need to get your back row into combat. But that is assuming you have a large enough enemy unit foot print to do so. Once you take a single casualty you would then be good to go.

This actually is another reason to lean towards Lancers because once you hit that magic "5" models, you may not want to resurrect a model so you can easily capitalize on attacks. 

[readercolin]

So I have 3 different lists that I'm looking at:

List 1:
Oakenbrow - Dwindling
Treelord Ancient
Spirit of Durthu
Lady of Vines
Treelord (+1 damage battalion)
Treelord (+1 damage battalion)
5 Tree-revenants (count as 3 battalion)
5 Tree-revenants (count as 3 battalion)
20 Dryads (count as 3 battalion)

This list comes out to 1995 points, with the general gameplan of having a 20 block of dryads sitting near some woods holding your home objectives, 2 squads of 5 tree-revenants that can go out and snipe unguarded/lightly guarded objectives by counting as 15, and then a deathstar of the treelord-ancient, spirit of durthu, 2 treelords and the lady of vines.  Here, the treelord ancient helps you drop another woods, and we are going with the dwindling to give the lady of vines the option to re-roll her 5+ ward save, which will make your 4 big trees that much tougher to deal with.  Finally, lady of vines also gives you another 10 dryads to drop down and help secure objectives, or just screen your treelords.

List 2:
Heartwood - everdusk or burgeoning
Arch-Revenant
Warsong Revenant
6 Scythe Hunters
6 Scythe Hunters
3 Revenant Seekers
3 Revenant Seekers
10 Dryads
Battle Regiment

This list comes out to 1995 points.  Here, I started by saying that I wanted to build around the tankyness that is blocks of 6 hunters - which means taking scythe hunters.  Here, the Revenant seekers can work as support for the hunters, able to bring a model back to the unit, and also have the speed to move into position to steal objectives or just add a bit more damage.  Dryads are a screening unit, or sit in the back and hold your own objectives, and the warsong revenant also has a spell to revive a hunter/seeker, probably with the vespral gem to guarantee that it goes off, and still have a cast to put another tree on the field so your hunters can teleport around.  Finally, the Arch-Revenant has the speed to move between the scythe hunter squads, and can buff them with +1 to wound and +1 attacks.  Other alternatives that I was looking at for this would be to drop the second squad of seekers and dryads for a unit of bow hunters and either tree-revs or dryads, or get another hero and 1 more squad of battleline.  Overall, I think this is the weakest of the lists that I was looking at, but it still tempts me with the 30 wound blocks of scythe hunters.

List 3:
Harvestboon - Everdusk or burgeoning
Warsong Revenant
Arch-Revenant
3 Revenant Seekers
3 Revenant Seekers
3 Revenant Lancers (+1 damage battalion)
3 Revenant Lancers (+1 damage battalion)
6 Scythe Hunters (+1 damage battalion)
5 Tree-revenants (count as 3 battalion)
5 Tree-revenants (count as 3 battalion)

This list comes out to 1975 points.  Here, I was looking to have 2 different offensive blocks.  The first would be the 2 squads of lancers that can charge and strike first, backed up by a squad of seekers that can then hit third and bring models back to any of the bug units.  The second block would be the slightly slower scythe hunters + 3 seekers, with the warsong revenant able to bring a model back and the arch-revenant buffing the hunters as well.  Finally, the tree-revenants would be highly mobile objective grabbers that can hide out and they are your only Veteran units.  Overall, I think this list likely has the highest potential upside, though it does still have a bit of room to shift some models around for something different.

[Lord Krungharr]

My first build will definitely be Oakenbrow/3 Treelords/Durthu/Ancient/Lady, plus whatever (if anything) else that fits.  Hopefully the Gladewyrm and Hiveswarm spells?  I preordered the tome but haven't looked deep at the leaks too much.  Guess the springtime season?  As I recall vaguely from Warhammer-Community, that one was my favorite.

If I ever get enough old metal Treekin then I can do something more Kurnothi style perhaps.

[Frowny]

I think seekers are 2 damage,with 3 attacks, yes? This actually makes them out damage the lancers. 3*1/2*2/3*2= 2 damage per seeker, at rend -2. 4*2/3*2/3*1= 1.77 dmg at rend -2 for the lancers. Given the similar price points, the slight difference in pts i think still leaves the seekers more dmg per point. It gets even more favorable with all out attack which grants the seekers +33% more damage but only +25% more to the lancers.

Tldr seekers do more damage per point with and without all out attack.

[Jaskier]

8 minutes ago, Frowny said:

I think seekers are 2 damage,with 3 attacks, yes? This actually makes them out damage the lancers. 3*1/2*2/3*2= 2 damage per seeker, at rend -2. 4*2/3*2/3*1= 1.77 dmg at rend -2 for the lancers. Given the similar price points, the slight difference in pts i think still leaves the seekers more dmg per point. It gets even more favorable with all out attack which grants the seekers +33% more damage but only +25% more to the lancers.

Tldr seekers do more damage per point with and without all out attack.

Yep, it's one of the reasons Seekers are justifiably 25 points more than the Lancers. Where the Lancers shine is if you run multiple units to really make the most of their strikes first on the charge, or even just one to partner up with a bigger combat threat like Kurnoths or Durthu. Being able to fight with multiple units before your opponent can strike with even one of their own is a huge deal, especially if you use them together to gank tougher units.

If you run 6 Kurnoths + 2x3 Seekers, only one unit would fight before the reprisal, whereas switching one of the Seeker units for Lancers would let you fight with two units before any reprisal, perfect for getting the few extra wounds you need off a hard target or crippling something else before it can do anything. Even just being able to say "my Kurnoths are gonna dice this thing, and my Lancers will charge this other thing and zip away after fighting for free damage every turn without putting any extra risk on my Kurnoths" is pretty darned good. I think like most things in this book, there's merit to each option, which is something I can't say for a lot of other tomes I've read through. 

[mmimzie]

5 hours ago, readercolin said:

List 3:

If i took any kurnoths or durthu i'd bring a sprite swarm hive. It ramps those two units to 11.

@Frowny @Jaskier also the lancers gain the most damage from bounty hunters have an extra attack and doubling thier damage.  While the lansers are also better at striking and fading away as they have the movement to be alittle more flexible with where they fade too.  They are both good for thier own reason and ask Jask says i like them together so you can slider a lancer squad out and then pile in with seekers to get more damage per surface area. 

Damage wise scythe kurnoths and durthu put a lot more out while both are very slow and needed more support to get to thier true damage caps and make into desired combats.  Durthu and kurnoths both out put about twice what either squad does  at base and i haven't first doing my personaly math but the buffs we have i'd say would favor kurnoth getting the better end with +1 attack, while durthu gets a lot from the green sword. 

The real buff on lancers and seekers is going to be bounty hunters. with a high number of attacks doubling the damage is bigger on them than the kurnoths who don't get quite as much. Then stacks stronger with the +1 attack buff you can give them as they get more attacks out of the +1 attack buff. 
 

Edited June 22, 2022 by mmimzie

[Frowny]

While i think the bounty hunters is interesting, i think building too much around it is a mistake- Manythings you want to kill won't be battle line etc. Dragons, Fulminators, Kragnos, megagargants, long strikes, bastilidons, stegadons. Basically none of the strongest targets does it help you against.

And against many targets, you'd murder them anyway. 6 kurnoths charging a 10 model battle line screen will overkill it even without the +1 dmg.

And mist importantly, the existence of that battalion will push people away from running things that it is good against. Nurgle will run pusgoyle blightlords instead of blight kings for example.

I think bounty hunters may be a nice battalion to include but I don't think it will be as game breaking as ppl think. Everyone is building lists as if they will always be getting the +damage instead of it being very situational. 

[mmimzie]

6 minutes ago, Frowny said:

While i think the bounty hunters is interesting, i think building too much around it is a mistake- Manythings you want to kill won't be battle line etc. Dragons, Fulminators, Kragnos, megagargants, long strikes, bastilidons, stegadons. Basically none of the strongest targets does it help you against.

And against many targets, you'd murder them anyway. 6 kurnoths charging a 10 model battle line screen will overkill it even without the +1 dmg.

And mist importantly, the existence of that battalion will push people away from running things that it is good against. Nurgle will run pusgoyle blightlords instead of blight kings for example.

I think bounty hunters may be a nice battalion to include but I don't think it will be as game breaking as ppl think. Everyone is building lists as if they will always be getting the +damage instead of it being very situational. 

I'd say i wouldn't over sell what i said. Simple that seekers are a great target for bounty hunters and we don't yet know what we'll want for the meta. Do remember many list ran hunters. That side and while you said is true, there is another side to the coin. Many of these battle line get a similar buff of getting to attack in two ranks when they normally couldn't. Those units will beable to not only come out on top damage wise, but hold objectives like crazy. 

While units like clanrats just god a huge points cut a small durability buff. Those things even if you take bounty hunters will be hard to move off the table and can put out a lot of damage. While now also basically auto controlling every objective, and force control 1 objective every turn that you can't contest.  While they can also put some really meaningful damage. I dont think bounty hunter will be required for every game, but against a  list where bounty hunter is good you might struggle even if you do have it.

The meta will decide what works or what doesn't. But i know many times i've looked at a unit and been really excited about how they math, but then see 1" range on a 32mm base. Look most if not all of night haunt. The power that was reapers is going to shift into harbingers(?) and blage giest which were already decent with bladegiest actualy be viable/good/great in my eyes. Now they will beable to charge stuff and wipe it directly off the table in one go. 

[Jaskier]

That's exactly why I'm likely going to run at least one unit of each in all my competitive lists, because they output 6-7 attacks per model on multiple profiles so inherently get a lot more value out of +1 Damage/Attack/etc buffs than anything else. It's Gore Gruntas all over again! The trick is to not look at them as your main hammer (that's Kurnoths) but treat them as strong, mobile units that are extremely self-sufficient and can do anything you need them to do.

For the sake of curiosity as it was brought up, here's some quick and rough numbers (rounded up) for Scythe Kurnoths VS Durthu, assuming these buffs; Kurnoths get +1 to-hit (Heartwood) +1 to-wound (Arch-Revenant) +1 attack (Arch-Revenant) and exploding 6s (Everdusk; extremely easy to setup for Kurnoths because of their Envoys rule)/Durthu gets +1 to-hit (Heartwood) +1 to-wound (Finest Hour) +5 attacks on the Sword (Arch-Revenant, being near a wood and assuming you get lucky and roll high for the Greenwood Gladius) +1 attack on the Talon (Arch-Revenant) and exploding 6s (unfortunately much more difficult to setup for him, becoming impossible if charging off a teleport, so keep that in mind.) We'll also assume Treesong is in play for the heck of it (because thanks to the Vesperal Gem, that's easy!) Now;

I'll list the save bracket then the expected average unsaved damage against that save bracket in (x) again these are assuming a lot of buffs and are very quick/rough numbers so please don't get mad if they're a bit off! 

The Kurnoths; 25 attacks hitting and wounding on 2s, 25 hits, 21 wounds at -4 Rend/2 Damage - 2+ stacked to ignore 2 points of Rend (22) 2+ stacked to ignore 1 point of Rend (28) 2+ (34/36) 3+ or worse (42) 

The Durthu; (sword) 8 attacks hitting and wounding on 2s, 8 hits, 7 wounds at -3 Rend/6 Damage - 2+ stacked to ignore 2 points of Rend (12) 2+ stacked to ignore 1 point of Rend (18-24) 2+ (30) 3+ (36) 4+ or worse (42) / (talon) 3 attacks hitting and wounding on 2s, 3 hits, 3 wounds at -3 Rend/3 Damage - 2+ stacked ro ignore 2 points of Rend (3) 2+ stacked to ignore 1 point of Rend (3/6) 2+ (6) 3+ (6/9) 4+ or worse (9) 

The numbers are a bit deceiving because one of Durthu's buffs is a once-per-game ability, and for Durthu to really stack up to the Kurnoths he needs to roll high for his +D3 attacks from the Gladius. However, when you consider he's 130 points cheaper than the Kurnoths, he does really darned well, though Rend 2 means against the super tough targets you'll probably be relying on the Kurnoths. It definitely shows the value of Treesong to help enable these units in case you come up against things like stacked Archaon and so on. I think the nice thing here is that the Kurnoths are super strong and easy to buff to that level, and you can still have Durthu tagging along with them with a few buffs of his own (just +1 from Heartwood and D3+1 extra attacks from the Gladius and wood) and he will still put in a lot of work. Lord help anything the two charge together, especially as Hunters no longer exists so there's no way to stop Durthu's strike-last stomp! 

Edited June 22, 2022 by Jaskier

[mmimzie]

17 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

That's exactly why I'm likely going to run at least one unit of each in all my competitive lists, because they output 6-7 attacks per model on multiple profiles so inherently get a lot more value out of +1 Damage/Attack/etc buffs than anything else. It's Gore Gruntas all over again! 

For the sake of curiosity as it was brought up, here's some quick and rough numbers (rounded up) for Scythe Kurnoths VS Durthu, assuming these buffs; Kurnoths get +1 to-hit (Heartwood) +1 to-wound (Arch-Revenant) +1 attack (Arch-Revenant) and exploding 6s (Everdusk; extremely easy to setup for Kurnoths because of their Envoys rule)/Durthu gets +1 to-hit (Heartwood) +1 to-wound (Finest Hour) +5 attacks on the Sword (Arch-Revenant, being near a wood and assuming you get lucky and roll high for the Greenwood Gladius) +1 attack on the Talon (Arch-Revenant) and exploding 6s (unfortunately much more difficult to setup for him, becoming impossible if charging off a teleport, so keep that in mind.) We'll also assume Treesong is in play for the heck of it (because thanks to the Vesperal Gem, that's easy!) Now;

I'll list the save bracket then the expected average unsaved damage against that save bracket in (x) again these are assuming a lot of buffs and are very quick/rough numbers so please don't get mad if they're a bit off! 

The Kurnoths; 25 attacks hitting and wounding on 2s, 25 hits, 21 wounds at -4 Rend/2 Damage - 2+ stacked to ignore 2 points of Rend (22) 2+ stacked to ignore 1 point of Rend (28) 2+ (34/36) 3+ or worse (42) 

The Durthu; (sword) 8 attacks hitting and wounding on 2s, 8 hits, 7 wounds at -3 Rend/6 Damage - 2+ stacked to ignore 2 points of Rend (12) 2+ stacked to ignore 1 point of Rend (18-24) 2+ (30) 3+ (36) 4+ or worse (42) / (talon) 3 attacks hitting and wounding on 2s, 3 hits, 3 wounds at -3 Rend/3 Damage - 2+ stacked ro ignore 2 points of Rend (3) 2+ stacked to ignore 1 point of Rend (3/6) 2+ (6) 3+ (6/9) 4+ or worse (9) 

The numbers are a bit deceiving because one of Durthu's buffs is a once-per-game ability, and for Durthu to really stack up to the Kurnoths he needs to roll high for his +D3 attacks from the Gladius. However, when you consider he's 130 points cheaper than the Kurnoths, he does really darned well, though Rend 2 means against the super tough targets you'll probably be relying on the Kurnoths. It definitely shows the value of Treesong to help enable these units in case you come up against things like stacked Archaon and so on. I think the nice thing here is that the Kurnoths are super strong and easy to buff to that level, and you can still have Durthu tagging along with them with a few buffs of his own (just +1 from Heartwood and D3+1 extra attacks from the Gladius and wood) and he will still put in a lot of work. Lord help anything the two charge together, especially as Hunters no longer exists so there's no way to stop Durthu's strike-last stomp! 

Durthu in my mind is great for a few different reasons.

1 they can fit in alot smaller spaces able to snipe things alot easier.

Durthu gets spirit paths so you can teleport with out using anything else.

Durthu doesn't necessarily need any support out side the artifact, and if you want to make them a tanking unit you can spring for the etheral durthu so they can become a good tank for the army.

I think if tree song really excites you i'd just bring an aspect of the sea. Lets you turn a lot more stuff on, very durable unit great user of external endless spells.  Can just shred the save off  folks. 

This isn't to say kurnoth are not beast, but durthu can do things and has a place should you want to make a list featuring the tree spirit.

Edited June 22, 2022 by mmimzie

[Arzalyn]

46 minutes ago, Frowny said:

While i think the bounty hunters is interesting, i think building too much around it is a mistake- Manythings you want to kill won't be battle line etc. Dragons, Fulminators, Kragnos, megagargants, long strikes, bastilidons, stegadons. Basically none of the strongest targets does it help you against.

I'm with you that is a little to soon for us to start praising units based on that battalion. We need to see how the meta adapts first before we considerate it a viable buff.

6 hours ago, readercolin said:

List 1:
Oakenbrow - Dwindling
Treelord Ancient
Spirit of Durthu
Lady of Vines
Treelord (+1 damage battalion)
Treelord (+1 damage battalion)
5 Tree-revenants (count as 3 battalion)
5 Tree-revenants (count as 3 battalion)
20 Dryads (count as 3 battalion)

This list comes out to 1995 points, with the general gameplan of having a 20 block of dryads sitting near some woods holding your home objectives, 2 squads of 5 tree-revenants that can go out and snipe unguarded/lightly guarded objectives by counting as 15, and then a deathstar of the treelord-ancient, spirit of durthu, 2 treelords and the lady of vines.  Here, the treelord ancient helps you drop another woods, and we are going with the dwindling to give the lady of vines the option to re-roll her 5+ ward save, which will make your 4 big trees that much tougher to deal with.  Finally, lady of vines also gives you another 10 dryads to drop down and help secure objectives, or just screen your treelords.

I like your other lists, but one thing got my attention in this one. I think this one will struggle to deal with strong enemy units without Durthu. The Treelord damage is weaker than the lancers, they are more like anvils than hammers.

[Jaskier]

25 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

Durthu in my mind is great for a few different reasons.

1 they can fit in alot smaller spaces able to snipe things alot easier.

Durthu gets spirit paths so you can teleport with out using anything else.

Durthu doesn't necessarily need any support out side the artifact, and if you want to make them a tanking unit you can spring for the etheral durthu so they can become a good tank for the army.

I think if tree song really excites you i'd just bring an aspect of the sea. Lets you turn a lot more stuff on, very durable unit great user of external endless spells.  Can just shred the save off  folks. 

I think the only reasons I wouldn't run a Durthu (with the Gladius) at this point is I'm either going magic heavy or I'm using Alarielle. Having at least one Treelord for the Stomp is always good and Durthu's easily the best of the three, he really doesn't need much to chomp things down beyond the Gladius. Just a great unit all around. You're spot on about the high damage/small footprint ratio and utility of being a hero. I think the main thing those numbers show is that it's a lot easier to buff Kurnoths to level almost anything, but Durthu's no slouch either. It bears repeating but I'm not sure there's much of anything that survives a 6 Scythe Hunters and Durthu tag-team, and that's a far cry from our anaemic can-opening potential of the previous book. 

While I agree with you in principle about the Eidolon, in all fairness an Aspect of the Sea is 325 points. Treesong is much cheaper and easier to access, whilst also being potentially a lot easier to setup for when you need it. I like the Aspect of the Sea a lot and have looked at using him in multiple armies as an ally, but I'm not sure it's a simple matter of "if you want Treesong, take this guy instead." I wouldn't say Treesong excites me *that* much either, I'd rather use my Vesperal Gem on Verdurous Harmony for example as I've shown in my posted list, but it's something to consider in the age of save stacking 2+ monsters like Kragnos. It's a nice-to-have which is a running trend in this book

One thing I've noted is that Regrowth feels completely unnecessary now, or at least it's not as good as the other, improved lore spells. A D6 heal on a 5+ isn't bad but with the passive healing from woods, some units having self-healing/recursion, and Heroic Revovery, it doesn't feel as important as it used to. I think I'd only take it in a full on monster mash/Oakenbrow list. 

Edited June 22, 2022 by Jaskier

[Arzalyn]

We've talking a lot about damage on the last couple of pages, but I want to ask, which are your go to defensive units? Some of the ones that come to mind:

- TLA/Warsong with the ethereal trait + vesperal gem to auto cast throne of vines. Probably they end being the most resilient choise we have, at the price of our trait + one artefact. The TLA offer more wounds and a better base save, but the Warsong has a ward which add to his resiliency.

- Lady of vines + 10 dryads with both -1 to hit/wound and a 5+ ward around her. You can even give the lady Verdurous harmony to bring back some dryads. The lady really bring some defensive utility if you need.

- Revenant seekers by themselves. As long as the enemy don't kill the whole unit in one go they can bring one model back to life or heal back is they just took damage. They also pack a good amount of damage, which help them fulfilling multiple roles you may need in your list.

- Kurnoths in the Burgeoning and in a objective. The heal one wound and get a 6+ ward. Both aren't much, but considering how they are one of our best damaging units, it's nice to see you can build around increasing their defenses as well.

- As @Landohammer pointed earlier, the Gladewyrm can help heal our units and protect them with the mortal wound threat + it's big footprint.