AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

[States]

On 4/22/2020 at 5:43 PM, Landohammer said:

Sounds great! 

Yea the pros and cons of Alarielle can be debated for ages. I personally think she shines with dreadwood due to the reliable casting of Hive and the ability to self teleport.

But she is also insanely fast if she gets the Hive buff. At top bracket she becomes Movement 19 and +3 to charge, and note her summon occurs at the end of movement. I have had her and her summon charge units 30 inches away on turn 1. 

What makes her a reliable caster for Hive? I only see throne of vines able to up her reliability, but that would apply to any other caster too.

[Landohammer]

7 minutes ago, States said:

What makes her a reliable caster for Hive? I only see throne of vines able to up her reliability, but that would apply to any other caster too.

She can cast Throne and Hive in the same turn. The only other way to do that is with the Spiritsong Stave which requires a Battalion. 

A reliable Hive on turn one is absolutely clutch to the overall dreadwood strategy.  Many times you can use it twice before your opponent is even in range to dispel it. 

 

[Dammitt_Jim]

Would anyone have an idea for a good points amount for an introductory game (facing Ossiarch Bonereapers)? Would 500 points be too small? Also, would you still require 2 battleline for such a low point game?

With that in mind I came up with this:

Dreadwood Glade

Branchwraith (Gen) - Jewel, Throne of Vines (80 points)

10 Dryads (100 points)

2x5 Spite Revenants (120 points)

3 Kurnoth Hunters (Swords) (200 points)

500/500 points

Or do you think it would be better to perhaps not bother with summoning or magic and try something like this:

Winterleaf Glade

Arch-Revenant - Frozen Kernel (100 points)

10x Dryads (100 points)

10x Dryads (100 points)

3x Kurnoth Hunters (Swords) (200 points)

500/500 points

Thanks.

[Nixon]

At 500 points you are missing out on a lot of synegies. I would say that you should think of it as a learning game or a narrativ game and not be so concerned about balance. So either list would do fine for me.

[Landohammer]

2 hours ago, Dammitt_Jim said:

Would anyone have an idea for a good points amount for an introductory game (facing Ossiarch Bonereapers)? Would 500 points be too small? Also, would you still require 2 battleline for such a low point game?

With that in mind I came up with this:

Dreadwood Glade

Branchwraith (Gen) - Jewel, Throne of Vines (80 points)

10 Dryads (100 points)

2x5 Spite Revenants (120 points)

3 Kurnoth Hunters (Swords) (200 points)

500/500 points

Or do you think it would be better to perhaps not bother with summoning or magic and try something like this:

Winterleaf Glade

Arch-Revenant - Frozen Kernel (100 points)

10x Dryads (100 points)

10x Dryads (100 points)

3x Kurnoth Hunters (Swords) (200 points)

500/500 points

Thanks.

Anything below 2k requires 2+ battleline. .Either list is fine.

But do note that 500pt games are best reserved for learning games. They are usually decided by turn 2 and can competitively be over after just 1 combat. 

I strongly encourage you to bump it up to 1000 as soon as possible if you are aiming for a balanced experience.  Even if you have to proxy models or take allies to bridge to gap. 

[readercolin]

14 hours ago, Landohammer said:

Anything below 2k requires 2+ battleline. .Either list is fine.

But do note that 500pt games are best reserved for learning games. They are usually decided by turn 2 and can competitively be over after just 1 combat. 

I strongly encourage you to bump it up to 1000 as soon as possible if you are aiming for a balanced experience.  Even if you have to proxy models or take allies to bridge to gap. 

Not anything below 2k.  1750 follows the 2k rules and needs 3 battleline, 1500 can require either 2 or 3 depending upon the tournament/coin flip/whatever, and meeting engagements only require 1 unit of battleline.  

[Landohammer]

9 hours ago, readercolin said:

Not anything below 2k.  1750 follows the 2k rules and needs 3 battleline, 1500 can require either 2 or 3 depending upon the tournament/coin flip/whatever, and meeting engagements only require 1 unit of battleline.  

Ah good point. I was defaulting to the GHB since it specifies 2K but the App and Warscroll builder both let you swing a Battlehost (3+) down to as low as 1500.  Never noticed that before.

To be honest I never regarded 1250-1750 much since I never see events ran at those levels. But strangely there is a growing movement on twitter trying to push 1500 as the new tournament standard. The argument is that it helps mitigate some of the power combos and it allows events to run 4 rounds per day. Not sure I agree but its interesting.

Sadly Meeting Engagement is a dead format, at least in my area.

 

 

 

 

 

[Dammitt_Jim]

Thanks for your replies.

17 hours ago, Landohammer said:

Anything below 2k requires 2+ battleline. .Either list is fine.

But do note that 500pt games are best reserved for learning games. They are usually decided by turn 2 and can competitively be over after just 1 combat. 

I strongly encourage you to bump it up to 1000 as soon as possible if you are aiming for a balanced experience.  Even if you have to proxy models or take allies to bridge to gap. 

OK, seems like 500 points might not give us the best experience so I'll recommend to my friend that we play 1000 points for a little while. At least that allows us both to use some larger, more exciting units!

[Nixon]

I was just wondering if any of you have had any succes with list that contain no Dryads from the beginning? 

I was thinking about running a list with two Branchwraiths and Spites for Battleline. 

Any suggestions. 

[SaJeel]

You always want a branchwraith and dryads to summon in, its so cheap for so much

 

[Falkman]

5 hours ago, Nixon said:

I was just wondering if any of you have had any succes with list that contain no Dryads from the beginning? 

I was thinking about running a list with two Branchwraiths and Spites for Battleline. 

Any suggestions. 

Any reason for running two Branchwraiths? Redundancy if one of them should die?

[Nixon]

Just to make sure that I have more flexibility in casting Dryads. 

 

[Popisdead]

On 4/28/2020 at 6:35 AM, Landohammer said:

But strangely there is a growing movement on twitter trying to push 1500 as the new tournament standard. The argument is that it helps mitigate some of the power combos and it allows events to run 4 rounds per day. Not sure I agree but its interesting.

Blame Rob Symes.  

BC (before children) when I played in tournaments and leagues people tried methods of points jiggling to curve bent combos and also maybe lift some weaker armies that got decimated when they saw that power Lord roll them (so 6th, 7th, 8th).  I found it is like comp.  You just change the line where the power users find the places the game breaks.  I've never been a fan of comp as I view tournaments as places for people to all have the same goal (you're going for 5-0 and all the armies are available in all GW stores in the same manner).  I was the guy who played WE and Beastmen in 8th tournaments cause I loved the army knowing I wasn't going to do well.  I played against say, the Nurgle Daemon army with 2 skillcannons bought from a polish commission painter.  He wanted to win top dog more than I wanted to use an army other than my favourite.

Sometimes I just prefer playing 1000 or 1500 point games as, well kiddos eat my time up and I know 1500 points will be set up, played, done and i'll be home from a close buddies in 2 hours.  And it's a new enjoyable way to play.  

However I don't like to see weird restrictions brought in based on the false notion of "game balance" by internet cowboys champion whatever. 

[Landohammer]

2 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

Blame Rob Symes.  

BC (before children) when I played in tournaments and leagues people tried methods of points jiggling to curve bent combos and also maybe lift some weaker armies that got decimated when they saw that power Lord roll them (so 6th, 7th, 8th).  I found it is like comp.  You just change the line where the power users find the places the game breaks.  I've never been a fan of comp as I view tournaments as places for people to all have the same goal (you're going for 5-0 and all the armies are available in all GW stores in the same manner).  I was the guy who played WE and Beastmen in 8th tournaments cause I loved the army knowing I wasn't going to do well.  I played against say, the Nurgle Daemon army with 2 skillcannons bought from a polish commission painter.  He wanted to win top dog more than I wanted to use an army other than my favourite.

Sometimes I just prefer playing 1000 or 1500 point games as, well kiddos eat my time up and I know 1500 points will be set up, played, done and i'll be home from a close buddies in 2 hours.  And it's a new enjoyable way to play.  

However I don't like to see weird restrictions brought in based on the false notion of "game balance" by internet cowboys champion whatever. 

I am not a fan of comp either, but I think it was definitely necessary in 8th edition. As a fellow woodelf player back in WHF, there were armies that I knew I just couldn't beat. I haven't really experienced that in AOS outside of maybe pre-nerf Slaanesh. But yea I agree the power-gamers can break 1500 just as easily as 2000.

I also value that 1500 games are markedly faster than 2000, and that is super useful for us with real world responsibilities. 

But, there are also some issues with 1500:

-Generally games with lower points value are more likely to be decisively won early on. To clarify: It is easier to recoup from a bad turn/bad luck when you have more units to pull from. 

-As I  learned earlier, battle-line requirements for 1500pt games are not firmly established. So you have to come to an agreement with your opponent before-hand. 

-Having less points also means less list variety. Also some armies get really hit hard by 3+ battleline in 1500pts. If you have bad or limited battleline options, then now an even larger portion of your army is predetermined. 

So there are definitely Pros and Cons to each point level. But do note that 2K point games are designed to last 2.5 hours ( and mine usually come to a natural conclusion in that time). So we have to measure a major change in the game with gaining an additional 30 minutes. 

[Popisdead]

Those are good points as well.  @Landohammer  I hadn't thought of the swinginess of 1500 points.  

 

Isn't it 2+ at 1500 points for BL?  maybe something to toy around with at least.

[readercolin]

2 hours ago, Popisdead said:

Those are good points as well.  @Landohammer  I hadn't thought of the swinginess of 1500 points.  

 

Isn't it 2+ at 1500 points for BL?  maybe something to toy around with at least.

1500 points can be 1k point rules or 2k point rules.  It is up to individual tournament organizers (or individual gamers in pick up games) to decide which ruleset they are using.

[Landohammer]

13 hours ago, Popisdead said:

Those are good points as well.  @Landohammer  I hadn't thought of the swinginess of 1500 points.  

 

Isn't it 2+ at 1500 points for BL?  maybe something to toy around with at least.

Yea as readercolin said. Its not firmly established.

Azyr and Warscroll Builder allow it to go either way. You can field 1500 as Vanguard (+500) or Battlehost (-500)

The GHB doesn't specify either, but note that it doesn't technically enforce 3+ battleline until 2K.

Personally I would defer to treating it as Vanguard +500 (so 2+) unless told otherwise.

Its definitely an interesting point. This was actually a hot topic during the early ages of T9A shortly after the end of WHF. Slow play was a HUGE problem so the decision was made to transition the standard game from 2500 to 2250pts. But this actually caused a lot of unforeseen balance consequences since many units were originally costed with a 2500pt cap in mind. For example, some unit slots were limited to 25%, so it wrecked armies with higher priced units in those slots.

I don't necessarily think its a direct comparison to AOS, but its definitely still relevant especially when it comes to allies. 

 

[Popisdead]

2 hours ago, Landohammer said:

This was actually a hot topic during the early ages of T9A shortly after the end of WHF. Slow play was a HUGE problem so the decision was made to transition the standard game from 2500 to 2250pts. 

In the last league for 8th ed, I suggested not doing 2k or 2500 points but 1500 to get more younger kids in and they went 2999.  so people suddenly needed about a thousand points of troops and such. O_o

[Landohammer]

20 hours ago, Popisdead said:

In the last league for 8th ed, I suggested not doing 2k or 2500 points but 1500 to get more younger kids in and they went 2999.  so people suddenly needed about a thousand points of troops and such. O_o

Yea thats insane. Leagues are meant to be a bridge between casual games and tournaments. 3k would be super offputting. 

While slow play still pops up in AOS, I don't think it is anywhere near as bad as it use to be in WHF and T9A. Most AOS games are 70-80 models, while in WHF it wouldn't be uncommon to have 70 models just in core.  Also movement was super restrictive and a lot more meticulous.

When I teach people to play, i encourage them to push to 2000pts as soon as possible. I think smaller point games are wonderful for teaching, but the game doesn't properly function (and balance) until 2k. 

 

 

[readercolin]

On 5/7/2020 at 7:01 AM, Landohammer said:

When I teach people to play, i encourage them to push to 2000pts as soon as possible. I think smaller point games are wonderful for teaching, but the game doesn't properly function (and balance) until 2k. 

This really depends upon your local scene IMO.  Where I learned, most people were playing with 2k lists that they were optimizing for the NOVA open, or were people putting together lists that weren't auto-losing to the top tier lists because that is all that was around.  There wasn't much going on at the smaller level.

Meanwhile, after moving it is far more common in my new local scene to only play 1k lists.  This is because it is fewer points that people have to build/paint, which means less of a commitment is necessary.  Additionally, the games go faster, and can be played on a 4x4 table instead of a 4x6, which means that more people can get in more games faster, which is a problem with a lack of table space.

So because of this, I would advise anyone getting into AoS to figure out what is commonly played near you before diving in.  With my current location I can afford to play less meta and more for-fun, so I don't need top-tier lists just to compete.  I can get much different armies and be successful locally than I could at my previous location.  But I had to spend some time locally and figure out both what people were playing AND what people wanted to play to come to this conclusion.  I would advise anyone else starting out to do the same.

[Kloefklaffer]

Hello everyone, I'm getting my sister in Aos and she wants to play sylvaneth so I'm looking for a bit of advice. I have ordered a 1 k army consisting of:

1 branchwraith

2branchwitch

Durthu

1 treelord ancient

48 dryads

 

So with this she could go for 2x 10 dryads 28 for summoning or 1x 30 dryads 18 for summoning and leave out 1 branch witch. What do you think about this list for 1 k? 

 

Further I have been thinking about a 2k list. Wanting to add drycha and 6 kurnoth hunters. But what else? 

I'm not sure about allariele as I never played with models costing so many points myself. 

My sister dislikes both the revenant types because of the ghostly look so we prefer not to use them. 

Should we go with 3x 10 dryads as battle line and add more 3 more kurnoth hunters. This feels odd as the dryads no longer have the save bonus. 

Perhaps 3x 20 dryads?  And 20 for summoning. Or is having 80 dryads to much. I kinda like the idea of a big swarm. What are your thoughts? 

 

PS we are not competitive, so fluffy and fun lists are more important than winning

[Popisdead]

You could start with 2 x 20 Dryads or 30 and 10.  I was going to say 30 Dryads and 5 Tree Revs.  If your sister ever gets over the dislike of Tree Revenets they have amazing utility in the game.  

Before you get to 2k just have her play and try out 1000 points.  She may not stick to the game and selling off 1000 points might be less a loss than 2000 points.  However Drycha does well in Winterleaf as does large units of Dryads (and well,. haha so do 6 Scythe hunters )

I have 70 Dryads fully painted (though 30 was done in 2005) and the sprue is 4-man which is a leftover from 6th edition.  I would never buy another one (mostly these were all amassed through editions by me when people rage left at the start of 8th).  That leads to me thinking the unit may not stick around much longer.  You could probably play with 20, 20, 10 for a while and it be fine.  See if you can somehow scrounge up 2 more.  

[scrubyandwells]

Hi gang, 

Just wanted to pop in with some thoughts and Qs. 

Needed a break from trees after three years (have been playing SCE since last July), so never actually tested the new Sylvaneth book much when it came out; but have gotten some games in with them on TTS recently.

Of course it's unclear when tournaments might happen again, but here's some views and Qs from that perspective, which I'd love any opinions on: 

1. Sylvaneth's battletome remains one of the most well-balanced from a "healthy ecosystem" POV, i.e., if you take a solid list to a tournament, and you're reasonably experienced, you've got a shot at going 3-2. You could have an outside shot at going 4-1, but 5-0 will be exceptionally rare across the entire ecosystem. I think that's reflective of a "well-balanced" battletome. Unfortunately, from that POV, many other battletomes are not as well-balanced.

2. I think the spread of what Sylvaneth are asked to compete against has never been more challenging. That spread includes: 

• DoK: They remain difficult for traditional reasons, with some new wrinkles, e.g. efficient Scourgerunner Chariots. Generally, you want to be able to snipe a Hag Queen (or two), and, maybe ideally (?), do something about the Cauldron buff machine, the frequent cornerstone of DoK builds. Morathi can also be challenging, e.g., the potential to tie up your shooting (if you have shooting) for a number of rounds, forcing their shots into her.
• OBR: With the caveat of not having faced them yet, I imagine Nagash is a difficult matchup. More broadly, I think you must be able to snipe at least one Petrifex Harvester (with a 3+ save, possibly RR 1's), since Sylvaneth won't do much vs Mortek Guard if it's nearby. And if you have to be able to kill a Harvester, you probably must be able to first snipe a Mortisan Boneshaper, which could heal 3 wounds on a Harvester each round. Sylvaneth's mobility and capacity to concentrate power can help vs OBR, but I suspect if you can't kill a Harvester, you'll be in for a bad day.
• Fyreslayers: Unfortunately, if you're staring down two or three bricks of under-costed x20 Hearthguard Berzerkers (HGB), in Hermdar, you probably have to be able to "Just shoot the heroes" (or at least snipe a key hero at a key time next to x20 HGB). At the same time, you may need some semblance of an answer to Hermdar's ASF and double activation on a brick of x20 HGB. Hoping you roll a 4+ on a Groundshaking Stomp doesn't seem like a great answer, or even hoping you roll a 4+ on two Stomp attempts, assuming you can set up the opportunity.
• IDK: Still difficult for traditional reasons, similar to DoK. I think Ishlaen Guard also remain undervalued, especially with a Turtle for a 3+ ignore rend save (potentially RR 1's in combat), as an anvil anchor for an army that can still fit 2x6 Morrsarr Guard and other goodies. As always, Idoneth have phenomenal mobility and capacity to concentrate power, even without relying on a Soulscryer, along with their MW shocks that can, e.g., potentially turn off a Spirit of Durthu's 6D before he gets to swing. Dreadwood CA, Verdant Spellportal, and/or Tree-Revs could be critical for mobility, especially to get around boats blocking off space. I suspect Sylvaneth could be fairly competitive vs IDK, with good play, but they still seem tough to deal with.
• KO: The list that I've faced the most (with SCE...no games yet vs KO with trees) runs a Dirigible Suit Endrinmaster, Aether-Khemist, 3x6 Endrinriggers, 2x10 Thunderers, 1x10 Arkanaut Co, and 2 Frigates. Essentially the entire army can fly high and focus a tremendous amount of firepower from just within 24", with a lot of -1 rend, -2 rend, and multiple damage. Of course, flyers ignore LoS on Awakened Wyldwoods. That could be a problem. 
• Seraphon: At the moment, I'm leaning toward certain Seraphon Starborne builds being the strongest, or among the strongest, in the game, but no one knows it yet other than TTS players (...a lot of experienced players are playing on TTS). I think they're a hard counter for melee Sylvaneth builds, and probably do just as well vs shooting builds, including Heartwood, given Seraphon's capacity to spam ranged MWs. The footprint of Starborne builds is similar to past powerful lists: "Mooclan" in 2016 (Thundertusks throwing 6MW snowballs + Grot spam for screens/objs), multiple iterations of Tzeentch across 2017-2018 (Skyfires, Changehost), Skaven in 2019 with multiple units being undercosted, and now Tzeentch again this year.
• Slaanesh: As far as I can tell, White Dwarf Slaanesh bypasses the toning-down of depravity generation that happened via the Dec 2019 FAQ. Kurnoth are amazing sources of depravity, so it could be difficult to win the long game vs Slaanesh, especially if you can't threaten their heroes from distance. With that said, I haven't played against Slaanesh with trees; but on paper, this looks like another matchup where you'd like to have some ranged threat. Alternatively, maybe Sylvaneth has melee builds that can go toe-to-toe with Slaanesh?
• FEC: This one feels similar to Slaanesh. The Chalice remains a critical piece of FEC's durability, so if you don't wipe out entirely that unit of 40 Ghouls or Gristlegore Ghoul King on Terrorgheist, they could be coming back fully (or almost fully) restored. Again, another one where, on paper, you'd like to have some ranged damage, and you almost definitely need the ability to kill a 10-body Ghoul screen without sacrificing something important of your own.

Plenty of other matchups could be challenging, but those are among the ones that stand out personally.

3. In terms of competing against the above matchups, it often appears that you'd like to have 1) some meaningful ranged damage capacity, and 2) some ability to answer the ASF/ASL Q, when it arises. (Maybe I'm misreading #1 and/or #2?)

In that regard, when first reviewing the book last year, two things jumped out:

a) A personal desire for Heartwood to be among the most competitive, since it presented the chance to play "combined arms." In light of Wyldwoods blocking our own LoS (entailing that Kurnoth Bows and other shooters must be more exposed), the nature of Look Out, Sir!, the greater prevalence of -1 to hit (and stacking it for -2), and the amount of higher durability, I'm not that confident that combined-arms Heartwood is an actual choice for top-end play. 

b) Dreadwood's CA as arguably the strongest element in the book, providing incredible mobility that both bypasses Wyldwoods and pairs effectively with Spiteswarm Hive, allowing you to teleport a threat piece anywhere and have the chance to get a 6+ charge with a CP RR.

"A" was the hope that Sylvaneth could compete in a fashion similar to how they began in 2016: a combined arms build with a blend of some magic, some shooting, some melee, and some mobility. I'm not confident that hope reflects reality.

"B" was the potential reality that Sylvaneth, represented by the strengths of the Dreadwood CA and the core elements of Winterleaf, had become an army that would now focus primarily on combat as the means of trying to compete on top tables.

4. With all of that in mind, at the moment I'm struggling to square this seemingly round hole: A clear strength of Sylvaneth is melee, but the faction is staring down the barrel of a number of matchups where a dominant melee focus doesn't appear to be the answer, and the faction's ranged damage options are...limited, to put it mildly. 

Hopefully this ramble wasn't too rambly.  Would love to hear your thoughts. 

I'll follow up with another post on some of the current lists getting tested out.

Edited May 11, 2020 by scrubyandwells

[Kloefklaffer]

@popisdead

If she doesn't like aos I'm keeping the army so no need to worry about selling them. 

I do plan to keep at 1000 points for now but  I just wanted to think ahead so I won't buy her things that never get used.

Its good to know a horde of dryads is viable and not a waste of points/money. 

The battle tome is still on its way so we haven't looked at all the rules yet but I'll take a look at winterleaf once it arrives. 

I'm sure dryads are staying they feel too iconic to get rid of. I'm not sure what you mean by trying to scrounge more. They are readily available in boxes of 16. Perhaps is misunderstand the sentence.

I do understand the horror of getting models in those tiny blister packs. I have 20 old metal furies myself. 

[Shmaravoz]

Hello children of the forest. Check out the new Battle Report published by BulldogHammer Sylvaneth vs Gloomspite Gitz