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Gaz Taylor

AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion

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On 3/18/2019 at 9:58 AM, TactfulSaturn said:

On the topic of alternatives for dragon ogres, does anyone know if bullgors would work (size wize) with Stormcast Dracolines (much like the dracoline-orgoid conversion for the shaggoth)? Or perhaps Ogor torsos with some kind of BoC head/horns?  

Did you ever try this conversion? 

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Hey all, not sure if this is the right place to ask but I reckoned if anyone can help it would be you guys.

Im looking to make a converted mixed-beast/daemon army for Slaanesh and I have what I hope will be a cool idea for some Slaanesh themed Ungors.

i need to check the size of the models to make sure they won’t be too different though so I was wondering if anyone had a size comparison picture?

if possible, a comparison picture between Ungors and ghouls would be best but otherwise it would be great to compare them to a liberator.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Yoshiya said:

Hey all, not sure if this is the right place to ask but I reckoned if anyone can help it would be you guys.

Im looking to make a converted mixed-beast/daemon army for Slaanesh and I have what I hope will be a cool idea for some Slaanesh themed Ungors.

i need to check the size of the models to make sure they won’t be too different though so I was wondering if anyone had a size comparison picture?

if possible, a comparison picture between Ungors and ghouls would be best but otherwise it would be great to compare them to a liberator.

Now I have seen plenty of very nice Slaangor conversions out there. Usually people use Gors for this type of thing due to the size and compatibility. You chosing to do ungors, is rather unfortunate as it rather limits what bits will fit with each other.

Personally I would just swap their weapons for more sleek looking ones, and some random slaaneshi bits and adjust the paint job.

Alternatively, if you are up to it, you can go for a kitbash-custom job, however I think this will be quite tiring as you need rather large quantities of Ungors and other stuff so... anyway:

The way I`d go about it is replace their legs with demonette legs. As mentioned for Slaangors people tend to just add beastmen parts onto a demonettes body, but due to the size of Ungors this wouldnt work. Instead Id replace just the legs. Get some long sleek looking arms, and use non Beastmen weapon bits (something like Tzeentchs Cayric accolites have). 

If you have stuff like chains, hooks etc, you know things that would fit the Slaaneshi aesthetics I would add those sporadically here and there. The final part would be the appropriate paintjob in their gods favorite colors.

Now.... I am not gonna lie to you > they will end up as ugly freaks of the nature. Ungors are pretty old, and rather ugly sculpts, and most of them also have bulging bellies, something that just doesnt fit in with the whole Slender, Slick and seducive Slaaneshi vibe as a whole. 

You`d be much better of going for Gors instead as they are much better for this type of conversion project.

**Alternatively, if you Greenstuff skill is decent, you might just wanna give them a shawl and random bits of light posh looking clothing on them. You know, coz them Slaaneshies like the gooood stuff :D Fairly simple to do and the paintjob will do most of the trick.

***Alternate alternative > just use a completely different range of miniatures, ones that fit the theme you are looking for. Not GW shop/convention friendly though so be warned. If you however dont care about that stuff there is no need to worry about it (for example I dont: our LGS is not GW owned, and I dont go to GW only events either, most tournaments dont restrict the use of third party miniatures as long as they represent what they are. I got bunch of Mierce Mini minotaurs, and you can tell they are Minotaurs just by looking, and no one ever complained as the sculpts are much nicer than what GW has going on for their Bullgors.). 

Edited by Myrdin

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1 hour ago, Yoshiya said:

Hey all, not sure if this is the right place to ask but I reckoned if anyone can help it would be you guys.

Im looking to make a converted mixed-beast/daemon army for Slaanesh and I have what I hope will be a cool idea for some Slaanesh themed Ungors.

i need to check the size of the models to make sure they won’t be too different though so I was wondering if anyone had a size comparison picture?

if possible, a comparison picture between Ungors and ghouls would be best but otherwise it would be great to compare them to a liberator.

I'm working on converting ghouls into Ungor, I have a plan but hoping to have some built up by this weekend, been a bit busy recently.

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2 hours ago, Myrdin said:

Now I have seen plenty of very nice Slaangor conversions out there. Usually people use Gors for this type of thing due to the size and compatibility. You chosing to do ungors, is rather unfortunate as it rather limits what bits will fit with each other.

Personally I would just swap their weapons for more sleek looking ones, and some random slaaneshi bits and adjust the paint job.

Alternatively, if you are up to it, you can go for a kitbash-custom job, however I think this will be quite tiring as you need rather large quantities of Ungors and other stuff so... anyway:

The way I`d go about it is replace their legs with demonette legs. As mentioned for Slaangors people tend to just add beastmen parts onto a demonettes body, but due to the size of Ungors this wouldnt work. Instead Id replace just the legs. Get some long sleek looking arms, and use non Beastmen weapon bits (something like Tzeentchs Cayric accolites have). 

If you have stuff like chains, hooks etc, you know things that would fit the Slaaneshi aesthetics I would add those sporadically here and there. The final part would be the appropriate paintjob in their gods favorite colors.

Now.... I am not gonna lie to you > they will end up as ugly freaks of the nature. Ungors are pretty old, and rather ugly sculpts, and most of them also have bulging bellies, something that just doesnt fit in with the whole Slender, Slick and seducive Slaaneshi vibe as a whole. 

You`d be much better of going for Gors instead as they are much better for this type of conversion project.

**Alternatively, if you Greenstuff skill is decent, you might just wanna give them a shawl and random bits of light posh looking clothing on them. You know, coz them Slaaneshies like the gooood stuff :D Fairly simple to do and the paintjob will do most of the trick.

***Alternate alternative > just use a completely different range of miniatures, ones that fit the theme you are looking for. Not GW shop/convention friendly though so be warned. If you however dont care about that stuff there is no need to worry about it (for example I dont: our LGS is not GW owned, and I dont go to GW only events either, most tournaments dont restrict the use of third party miniatures as long as they represent what they are. I got bunch of Mierce Mini minotaurs, and you can tell they are Minotaurs just by looking, and no one ever complained as the sculpts are much nicer than what GW has going on for their Bullgors.). 

Thanks for the advice. However, I don’t want my Ungors to be the typical sleek slaangors but rather wretched looking things that are clearly broken.

My backstory is that they are the twisted remains of kidnapped Aelves and humans from the nearby villages, taken to be toys for a trio of sisters that dedicated themselves to slaanesh a long time ago. Broken and discarded, they now do anything to get back the attention of the ones that gave them such pleasure and pain, hoping to be invited to join in one of the feasts, where the overflowing energies of chaos transfer them into hulking Bestigors.

as such, I wanted to make a very ragtag, broken looking unit, with the bodies of ghouls with green stuff patches of fur, the heads of Ungors, and broken spears and shields taken from a variety of ranges. The Bestigors would then be based on the genestealer abherants to keep the bent over and broken image. My great bray shaman will then probably be based on a necromancer with a head swap.

my main concern was with sizing though as I wanna make a lot of them and don’t want to commit to buying the bitz if the idea won’t work.

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26 minutes ago, Yoshiya said:

Thanks for the advice. However, I don’t want my Ungors to be the typical sleek slaangors but rather wretched looking things that are clearly broken.

my main concern was with sizing though as I wanna make a lot of them and don’t want to commit to buying the bitz if the idea won’t work.

I'll try and take a comparison picture when I get a chance. What do you want, Ungor next to ghoul? Anything else?

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9 hours ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

I'll try and take a comparison picture when I get a chance. What do you want, Ungor next to ghoul? Anything else?

Ideally I’d like to get the following;

- Ungor vs ghoul

- Great Bray Shaman vs Necromancer

- Bestigors vs Aberrants

 

but ghouls and Ungors is the main one as I’m more worried about making things too small than too large.

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I've sacrificed myself to the Herdstone and picked up the Battletome, a box of Endless Spells and Start Collecting box to give me a start on the army (I'm not going to list everything I need to still buy for the army because I don't need to start crying blood today), so instead I've got a question: outside of running a Summoning heavy list, is there a reason to use the Allherd? The buff to our Battleshock tests seems helpful, but I know next to nothing about the army in its current form other than a need to own like three of everything for the sake of summoning as well as running large games.

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Allherd is pretty weak, the weapon itself is a bizarre combo. You get -3 rend against 30 or more models, who often already have a weak armor save! And you get 0 benefit against monsters and heroes, you know the things with good armor saves!

 

That and Gavespawn is amazing....

 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, kenshin620 said:

Allherd is pretty weak, the weapon itself is a bizarre combo. You get -3 rend against 30 or more models, who often already have a weak armor save! And you get 0 benefit against monsters and heroes, you know the things with good armor saves!

 

That and Gavespawn is amazing....

 

Gavespawn does look pretty amazing. I keep wanting to look into the non 'fray options but keep getting side tracked by how generally good that one is.

 

At least I have plenty of time to work that out. I mean I'm still painting my Herdstone.

EDIT: so after looking at the Greatfrays, is there really any reason to not take them?

20190601_102443_HDR.jpg

Edited by Fulkes
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22 hours ago, Fulkes said:

EDIT: so after looking at the Greatfrays, is there really any reason to not take them?

There are some viable builds out there that use things like Ancient Beyond Knowing on a Shaggoth or want to build with more specific artifacts in mind. I think the key is if you're going to skip Gavespawn you need a really concrete reason for doing so. 

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17 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

There are some viable builds out there that use things like Ancient Beyond Knowing on a Shaggoth or want to build with more specific artifacts in mind. I think the key is if you're going to skip Gavespawn you need a really concrete reason for doing so. 

I had a feeling that was the case. Well, at least the it's basically our only real auto include (as far as I can tell) at least).

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22 hours ago, Fulkes said:

Gavespawn does look pretty amazing. I keep wanting to look into the non 'fray options but keep getting side tracked by how generally good that one is.

 

At least I have plenty of time to work that out. I mean I'm still painting my Herdstone.

EDIT: so after looking at the Greatfrays, is there really any reason to not take them?

 

The standard power list for BoC that won the UK Masters and Sheffield Slaughter doesn't use a Greatfray.

I also personally usually run a Shaggoth general with Ancient Beyond Knowing as his command trait for the extra CP, so I typically don't use a Greatfray.

Gavespawn is really good though, especially with a Desolating Beastherd list with 4 heroes or more. Having your heroes turn into spawn is useful for both chaffing and buffing.

Allherd can be strong in a low points game (around 1250-1500), if you can afford Desolating Beastherd and hence get the Aetherquartz Brooch as your second artefact.

Darkwalkers is less obviously powerful, but can work well against alpha strike shooting lists like Skaven if your run a 1-drop.

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Dark Walkers definitely has some legs on iy, but you have to build towards it's strengths more. Allherd is the one I want to like because I like that they're basically old school Beastmen but I just can't make anything on it work effectively to my favor in my head. It's just so "meh".

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I've been catching up on the board, and I've been seeing a lot of chatter about Ungors vs Gors and the statements had me curious, so I did some mathhammer to get some ideas of how true the claims where. So I ran some math involving two units, a unit of 30 Ungor with spears and shields (most people's preferred way of running them) against 20 Gor with double hand weapon (they have the same save as the Ungor with shield in melee, and get a re-roll of 1s making it a bit more comparable. While I was at it, I looked at assuming how many models the Gor were able to pile in off of the charge against the assumption that the Ungor could get all 30 spears into combat:

Against a 2+:
30 Ungors with Spears: 30 attacks; re-rolling 1,2: 1 damage
20 Gors with a pair of blades (assuming 10 can fight): 20 attacks; re-rolling 1s: 1 damage
20 Gors with a pair of blades (assuming 15 can fight): 30 attacks; re-rolling 1s: 1 damage
20 Gors with a pair of blades (assuming 20 can fight): 40 attacks; re-rolling 1s: 1.5 damage

Against a 3+:
30 Ungors with Spears: 30 attacks; re-rolling 1,2: 2 damage
20 Gors with a pair of blades (assuming 10 can fight): 20 attacks; re-rolling 1s: 1.5 damage
20 Gors with a pair of blades (assuming 15 can fight): 30 attacks; re-rolling 1s: 3 damage
20 Gors with a pair of blades (assuming 20 can fight): 40 attacks; re-rolling 1s: 3.5 damage

Against a 4+:
30 Ungors with Spears: 30 attacks; re-rolling 1,2: 3 damage
20 Gors with a pair of blades (assuming 10 can fight): 20 attacks; re-rolling 1s: 2.5 damage
20 Gors with a pair of blades (assuming 15 can fight): 30 attacks; re-rolling 1s: 4 damage
20 Gors with a pair of blades (assuming 20 can fight): 40 attacks; re-rolling 1s: 5.5 damage

Against a 5+:
30 Ungors with Spears: 30 attacks; re-rolling 1,2: 4 damage
20 Gors with a pair of blades (assuming 10 can fight): 20 attacks; re-rolling 1s: 4 damage
20 Gors with a pair of blades (assuming 15 can fight): 30 attacks; re-rolling 1s: 5.5 damage
20 Gors with a pair of blades (assuming 20 can fight): 40 attacks; re-rolling 1s: 7.5 damage

Against a 6+:
30 Ungors with Spears: 30 attacks; re-rolling 1,2: 5 damage
20 Gors with a pair of blades (assuming 10 can fight): 20 attacks; re-rolling 1s: 4.5 damage
20 Gors with a pair of blades (assuming 15 can fight): 30 attacks; re-rolling 1s: 7 damage
20 Gors with a pair of blades (assuming 20 can fight): 40 attacks; re-rolling 1s: 9.5 damage

Against 7+:
30 Ungors with Spears: 30 attacks; re-rolling 1,2: 6.5 damage
20 Gors with a pair of blades (assuming 10 can fight): 20 attacks; re-rolling 1s: 5.5 damage
20 Gors with a pair of blades (assuming 15 can fight): 30 attacks; re-rolling 1s: 8.5 damage
20 Gors with a pair of blades (assuming 20 can fight): 40 attacks; re-rolling 1s: 11.5 damage

Basically, the way I see this is that 20 Gor can do the same job as the 30 Ungor (we all know that you'd be taking 30 and 40 respectively, but let's assume the optimal number made combat after casualties), but the more models they get into combat the better they do compared to the higher number of Ungor models do to each additional Gor bringing 2 attacks. This makes Gor great for doing two things: bullying multiple small units like warmachine crew, or bubble wrapping a bigger unit (or just a big base) with their pile in to maximize their attacks.

Plus a unit of 10 Gor still hit better than 10 Ungor due to being able to have re-roll 1s at their smallest unit size, while Ungor need at least 20 models to unlock the same thing, making Gor better for ambushing small bully units into your opponent's back lines.

The extra point of Bravery means the Gor also handle casualties better than Ungor. And if you want more of a tarpit, 30 with shields (saves 1/2% of their wounds each turn) will hold longer than the Ungor with shields (saves 1/3 of their wounds each turn), especially since the Ungor have to take a bravery check at one step sooner than the Gor do and can lose more models on average from Bravery checks.

Now this isn't to claim that the Ungor are useless. They are definitely great as a chaffe unit and can be used as a screen to dictate combat more effectively, but I feel Gor work well as a better tarpit in comparison, and are a better bully unit to ambush into your opponent's lines since they can do more with less models. 

Basically I feel like Gor have uses that we haven't fully looked into because there is some focus on them competing directly with Ungor instead of looking at how the units stack up and working out how to best employ those units from there.

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I think the problem isn't ungor vs gor

It's Bestigor vs Gor.

 

Unless you're really strapped for points (or want Slaanesh Battleline) , mind as well pay extra 30pts for bestigors.

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3 hours ago, kenshin620 said:

I think the problem isn't ungor vs gor

It's Bestigor vs Gor.

 

Unless you're really strapped for points (or want Slaanesh Battleline) , mind as well pay extra 30pts for bestigors.

Bestigor aren't what I'd class as a bully unit like Gor though. That said, we need all three for Desolating Head there, so might as well try and leverage their strengths.

As a couple of idead of how I'd use Gor: firstlyas a screen (since you can get a reasonable hit in and take wounds fairly well, if not even better than Ungor in melee depending on your load out) for Bestigor, but pull casualties in such a way from the Gor that the Bestigor can pile in through the new hole and chew through what's left of that unit.

Alternatively, ambush both the Gor and Bestigor but send the Bestifor after buff heroes and the like while the Gor hunt support units like Ballistas.

We have a deep tool box and if you only go for a hammer you're spending extra points you may not need to spend.

Also, as an additional thought: Gor could also be a screen for Bullgors or Gorghons depending on how you run the list. 

 

Ungor, to me, are little more than objective stealing chaffe. You take just enough to snag objectives or protect your Herdstone shaman and that's about it. In many cases multiple units of 10 may be better since it can reduce how many you can lose on a turn while speed bumping your opponent from claiming objectives in your territory.

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46 minutes ago, Fulkes said:

That said, we need all three for Desolating Head there, so might as well try and leverage their strengths.

Well technically you don't need gors, you can take tuskgor chariots!

But then you need to either buy the chariot or chop up stuff to make your own.

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54 minutes ago, kenshin620 said:

Well technically you don't need gors, you can take tuskgor chariots!

But then you need to either buy the chariot or chop up stuff to make your own.

True, but I see the chariots more as summoning fodder since they work more as a distraction.

Then again that could be just the model influencing my opinion.

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Posted (edited)

I can appreciate your enthusiasm regarding Gors, but at the same time it should be said that bunch of people tried their best to justify Gors... and they were not able to do it in any actual capacity. Some limited use ? Yes, maybe. But full fledged dependable, good choice to pick ?  ...Not really, no.

Gors dont have a good statline and are contested by 3 other units that can do the same, and do it better in most of the time. Having 3+ to Wound, would go miles for these guys, They are for all intent and purposes just younger, naked Bestigors without big weapons. The stat line should be closer to that, rather than being pretty much the same as Ungors are.

30 Bestigors, are super cheep tarpit that can actually kill stuff with relative ease. Tuskgor chariots are fantastic in greater numbers. Single models are good, but 3-4 chariots in a single unit has the durability and board coverage, solid speed. They are pretty much a budget price Dragon Ogors.

Ungors are able to strike 2" with spears, and as  the same time allow other units (mostly Tzaangors) to strike through them with 2" attacks. Since they have 25mm bases, you can get 3 lines to attack through the gaps.

And to put a cherry on top > Centigors are superior in every single way to Gors, at the same price tag. Sure, not a battle line, but who cares about that really. Filling out battle line in BoC army is super easy thanks to different general type bringing their big boys to the Battleline slot.

So yeah, Gors have no real place to fit in. Trust me, I wish this wasn't the case. I wish they had more umpfh, or a special rule or something. I have 40 of these painted, and another 30/40 unpainted > mostly due to them being not worth the time since they wont see the table anyway with the plethora of other choices left open to us.

Gors could be solid if they got fine tuned a little bit, but so could be said for most of our stuff thats not up to par with some other choices.

Edited by Myrdin
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I would say the only place Goes really perform would be with shields in a Slaanesh pretenders list (using deprived drove), as they benefit from all the buffs (if they take sheilds) while being significantly cheeper than bestigors (so more room for hero's).  But yes, 90% of the time we have better options.

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1 hour ago, Magnus The Blue said:

I would say the only place Goes really perform would be with shields in a Slaanesh pretenders list (using deprived drove), as they benefit from all the buffs (if they take sheilds) while being significantly cheeper than bestigors (so more room for hero's). 

Even then Bestigors so far outstrip Gors its unreal. 30 Bestigors in a Slaanesh list is one of the hardest hitting hammers in the game - Gors only saving grace is they're battle line where Bestigors aren't. 

Ultimately I appreciate that @Fulkes, like every other BoC player, is doing his absolute best to justify the inclusion of one of the most iconic and good looking units in the range. I think that after testing them he'll come to the same conclusion that every other BoC player has and that is they simply aren't worth fielding. When I play BoC (rarely now compared to HoS) I'd run a 10 man unit in Desolating Beastherd because its a requirement and they're a viable little screen/dire wolf equivalent. But in my experience with the book (which I consider to be a decent amount of) I've never been able to justify the inclusion of large units of Gors - I'd rather take Ungors or Bestigors every time. 

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2 hours ago, Myrdin said:

I can appreciate your enthusiasm regarding Gors, but at the same time it should be said that bunch of people tried their best to justify Gors... and they were not able to do it in any actual capacity. Some limited use ? Yes, maybe. But full fledged dependable, good choice to pick ?  ...Not really, no.

Gors dont have a good statline and are contested by 3 other units that can do the same, and do it better in most of the time. Having 3+ to Wound, would go miles for these guys, They are for all intent and purposes just younger, naked Bestigors without big weapons. The stat line should be closer to that, rather than being pretty much the same as Ungors are.

30 Bestigors, are super cheep tarpit that can actually kill stuff with relative ease. Tuskgor chariots are fantastic in greater numbers. Single models are good, but 3-4 chariots in a single unit has the durability and board coverage, solid speed. They are pretty much a budget price Dragon Ogors.

Ungors are able to strike 2" with spears, and as  the same time allow other units (mostly Tzaangors) to strike through them with 2" attacks. Since they have 25mm bases, you can get 3 lines to attack through the gaps.

And to put a cherry on top > Centigors are superior in every single way to Gors, at the same price tag. Sure, not a battle line, but who cares about that really. Filling out battle line in BoC army is super easy thanks to different general type bringing their big boys to the Battleline slot.

So yeah, Gors have no real place to fit in. Trust me, I wish this wasn't the case. I wish they had more umpfh, or a special rule or something. I have 40 of these painted, and another 30/40 unpainted > mostly due to them being not worth the time since they wont see the table anyway with the plethora of other choices left open to us.

Gors could be solid if they got fine tuned a little bit, but so could be said for most of our stuff thats not up to par with some other choices.

You mengioned Ungors, but basic math shows Gors do as well as them or better despite having smaller numbers.

I agree Bestigors are plainly better (easilly 2-3 extra damage per round of combat over Gor), but I feel that they also a lot more expensive and don't have rerolls while also running 40 extra points over Gor for 10 and 90 extra points if you take a full block of 30.

And the thing is, with GHB2019 coming I won't be surprised if that turns into us paying even more for Bestigors than we do now.

I won't deny they hit like a small truck, but I suspect GW is going to points cost them to better reflect that too. Which means that it's worth looking at what strengths Gor have for future proofing.

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27 minutes ago, Fulkes said:

You mengioned Ungors, but basic math shows Gors do as well as them or better despite having smaller numbers.

I agree Bestigors are plainly better (easilly 2-3 extra damage per round of combat over Gor), but I feel that they also a lot more expensive and don't have rerolls while also running 40 extra points over Gor for 10 and 90 extra points if you take a full block of 30.

And the thing is, with GHB2019 coming I won't be surprised if that turns into us paying even more for Bestigors than we do now.

I won't deny they hit like a small truck, but I suspect GW is going to points cost them to better reflect that too. Which means that it's worth looking at what strengths Gor have for future proofing.

Basic maths actually favours Ungors for damage in max-sized units (and Gors and Ungors are only worth running in either min or max-size units). Gors do more damage per model, but 25mm bases on Ungors (i.e. fighting in 2 ranks, or 3 ranks with spears, and extra models in the front rank) more than make up for it. Plenty of people (myself included) have checked the maths and concluded that Ungors actually outdamage Gors in max-sized units.

 

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35 minutes ago, Fulkes said:

You mengioned Ungors, but basic math shows Gors do as well as them or better despite having smaller numbers.

 

The only time Gors outperform Ungors mathematically is in medium sized units which should never be run. Basically every line infantry unit in BoC should either be run at Minimum or Maximum sizes. Also the big rumor leak says that Bestigors are unchanged in BoC - Gors are getting a bit cheaper (again this all rumor so take it with plenty of salt). 

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