AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion

[PONCHOGRANDE]

Can't say I'm not disappointed by the scale of the points adjustments we got, but frankly I'll take anything. Always loved the Cockatrice model, so any excuse to run them is good news in my book.

[bonhommes_]

11 hours ago, PONCHOGRANDE said:

Can't say I'm not disappointed by the scale of the points adjustments we got, but frankly I'll take anything. Always loved the Cockatrice model, so any excuse to run them is good news in my book.

We had a points change? I didn’t see anything go by on the leaked GHB2020 pages I found (only reprinted points from the December 2019 FAQ). Would you mind sharing where you saw this? Tbh I’ll take whatever we can get at this point

Edited July 7, 2020 by bonhommes_

[PONCHOGRANDE]

13 minutes ago, bonhommes_ said:

We had a points change? I didn’t see anything go by on the leaked GHB2020 pages I found (only reprinted points from the December 2019 FAQ). Would you mind sharing where you saw this? Tbh I’ll take whatever we can get at this point

No worries, they were posted by Sauriv on the other page.

The unit changes look like only a 10 point drop to Thunderscorn units and the Cockatrice.

The Tzeentch, Khorne, and Nurgle battalions all dropped to 180. The Thunderscorn Warherd dropped to 150.

[Alan Mandelson]

I'm not one to stick to the exact same list twice but I usually stick with a core (especially with Darkwalkers) of useful tools and some of my favourite units. The last tournemant I took the Darkwalkers to (I got 2 of 3 and usual, came dead middle of the score board) was

Brass Despoilers for battalion (I always take a battalion for the lower drops and the extra artifact for the Doombull)

Doombull (+2 Charge), Shaman (General), Shaggoth for Heroes 

5 units of 10 Bestigor, 1 unit of 6 Bullgor, 10 Gor, 5 Centigor and 2 Gorgon.

Wildfire Taurus and extra CP to finish it out. 3 drops total ( I always try for 3 or less drops)

Needed more screening units but I just had all my Bestigor painted up and wanted to play with them.

My current planned list is

Desolating Beastherd

Doombull, 2 Shaman

2 Units of 6 Bullgor, 10 Bestigor, 2 units of 10 Gor, 10 Ungor, 1 unit of 40 Ungor Raiders and a Chimera (recently painted). 

Also Wildfire Taurus and extra CP.

I am considering swapping out one of the 6 bulls for 10 more Bestigor and a Gorgon but was thinking of trying a 2 wave assault with the bulls.

I should say to my experience with the army (and AoS in general) is that don't get to play much AoS. BoC is my only AoS because of this and now the majority of my games are at tournaments (luckily there's usually 1 a month near by when not in a pandemic). I do play a lot of other wargames very regularly but this is my favourite army (from any game, although my 40k Chaos Daemons come a close-ish 2nd). 

Someone made this request of me and I was happy to oblige, and also if anybody has any recommendations or suggestions for me try I am all ears, especially when it comes to my sneaky shadow goats.

[Maddpainting]

On 7/6/2020 at 1:15 PM, Sauriv said:

The new points for us! 😁

The point changes needed to be more for sure, the fact that the Jabbercythe didn't even get touched is beyond stupid.

[Popisdead]

13 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

The point changes needed to be more for sure, the fact that the Jabbercythe didn't even get touched is beyond stupid.

The warscroll change was also beyond stupid.  They took a great unit that sold well in finecast (miracle there) and ruined it for the battle tome  ... sigh...

[Fazhak]

I'm pretty pleased with the new points. While the possibility of a confronting Decker's Phantasmagoria of Fate with my own Pestilent Throng continues to intrigue me, the new points help me return to a solid, explicitly Beasts of Chaos list. Specifically, I can now run what I hope will be a rather competitive new option: a revision of my Thunderscorn list.

2000pt THUNDERSCORN STORMHERD LIST

Allegiance: Beasts of Chaos

Greatfray: None

Realm: Chamon

HEROES

#1 Dragon Ogor Shaggoth (170pt)

• General
• Command Trait: Ancient Beyond Knowing
• Spell: Hailstorm

#2 Dragon Ogor Shaggoth (170pt)

• Artefact: Ancestral Azyrite Blade
• Spell: Thunderwave

#3 Dragon Ogor Shaggoth (170pt)

• Artefact: Rune Blade
• Spell: Sundering Blades

Great Bray-Shaman (100pt)

• Spell: Tendrils of Atrophy

BATTLELINE

#1 x3 Dragon Ogors (130pt)

• Draconic War-glaives

#2 x6 Dragon Ogors (260pt)

• Draconic War-glaives

#3 x6 Dragon Ogors (260pt)

• Draconic War-glaives

x10 Ungors (60pt)

• Ungor Blades

UNITS

#1 x10 Bestigor (120pt)

#2 x10 Bestigor (120pt)

x6 Bullgors (280pt)

• Great Axes

BATTALIONS

Thunderscorn Stormherd (160pt)

DESCRIPTION

Each of the Shaggoth are teamed with their respective Dragon Ogor unit, so to ensure that the Dragon Ogors units are re-rolling ones via Storm Rage. The two six-model Dragon Ogor units team with their corresponding Shaggoths, which each have -3 Rend, making those units my main answer to opposing hammers.

In fact, most units in this list have a 4+ save, a To Wound of 3+, a Movement of at least 6", and at least -1 Rend, making it fairly consistent stat-wise. Further, the healing options that the list possesses (mostly via Bloodgreed and Summon Lightning, but also more sporadically via Raging Storm and Beneath the Tempest), though limited, are not insignificant; the extra wounds provided by these options collectively help the list play into the late game. This is also a fast list, with the ability to get heavy units into position quickly.

The Bestigor units capture backfield objectives or serve as early blockers, with their movement potentially buffed by the Great Bray-Shaman. The Bullgors hopefully break anything with a particularly nasty save, as I tend to buff that Warherd unit with Sundering Blades to increase their Rend to -3. The Great Bray-Shaman and Ungors are used to generate Primordial Call points until late game, and then help block and debuff opposing units. Summoned units are usually deployed to block or otherwise harass opposing units, or take objectives.

What do you think? I look forward to your feedback!

Edited July 8, 2020 by Fazhak

[Popisdead]

Speaking of Nurgle, allying in Grashnak, getting a Maggotkin spellcaster for Blades of Purtrifaction you can get Centigors doing MWs on a 4+.  

Even 5 spit out 10 MWs in combat plus some other wounds.  I don't think it will be easy to get the two spells off going forward, you'd kinda want Grashnak on the Balewind to push the range.  But it's not bad for people looking to play Nurgle Beasts.

Plus in the battalion after the 5 die you could do D3 more MWs on a 2+ (granted the last time I used the Nurgle battalion I rolled three 1s on that 2+ in a row... so yeah,. stupid dice).

[Maddpainting]

14 hours ago, Fazhak said:

I'm pretty pleased with the new points. While the possibility of a confronting Decker's Phantasmagoria of Fate with my own Pestilent Throng continues to intrigue me, the new points help me return to a solid, explicitly Beasts of Chaos list. Specifically, I can now run what I hope will be a rather competitive new option: a revision of my Thunderscorn list.

2000pt THUNDERSCORN STORMHERD LIST

Allegiance: Beasts of Chaos

Greatfray: None

Realm: Chamon

HEROES

#1 Dragon Ogor Shaggoth (170pt)

• General
• Command Trait: Ancient Beyond Knowing
• Spell: Hailstorm

#2 Dragon Ogor Shaggoth (170pt)

• Artefact: Ancestral Azyrite Blade
• Spell: Thunderwave

#3 Dragon Ogor Shaggoth (170pt)

• Artefact: Rune Blade
• Spell: Sundering Blades

Great Bray-Shaman (100pt)

• Spell: Tendrils of Atrophy

BATTLELINE

#1 x3 Dragon Ogors (130pt)

• Draconic War-glaives

#2 x6 Dragon Ogors (260pt)

• Draconic War-glaives

#3 x6 Dragon Ogors (260pt)

• Draconic War-glaives

x10 Ungors (60pt)

• Ungor Blades

UNITS

#1 x10 Bestigor (120pt)

#2 x10 Bestigor (120pt)

x6 Bullgors (280pt)

• Great Axes

BATTALIONS

Thunderscorn Stormherd (160pt)

DESCRIPTION

Each of the Shaggoth are teamed with their respective Dragon Ogor unit, so to ensure that the Dragon Ogors units are re-rolling ones via Storm Rage. The two six-model Dragon Ogor units team with their corresponding Shaggoths, which each have -3 Rend, making those units my main answer to opposing hammers.

In fact, most units in this list have a 4+ save, a To Wound of 3+, a Movement of at least 6", and at least -1 Rend, making it fairly consistent stat-wise. Further, the healing options that the list possesses (mostly via Bloodgreed and Summon Lightning, but also more sporadically via Raging Storm and Beneath the Tempest), though limited, are not insignificant; the extra wounds provided by these options collectively help the list play into the late game. This is also a fast list, with the ability to get heavy units into position quickly.

The Bestigor units capture backfield objectives or serve as early blockers, with their movement potentially buffed by the Great Bray-Shaman. The Bullgors hopefully break anything with a particularly nasty save, as I tend to buff that Warherd unit with Sundering Blades to increase their Rend to -3. The Great Bray-Shaman and Ungors are used to generate Primordial Call points until late game, and then help block and debuff opposing units. Summoned units are usually deployed to block or otherwise harass opposing units, or take objectives.

What do you think? I look forward to your feedback!

Consider a paired weapon or 2 in those DO units, they for the most part are more damage (only less damage vs units with a 5+ unless you have rend then it goes to a 0sv).  Just an idea for you.

[Fazhak]

9 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

Consider a paired weapon or 2 in those DO units, they for the most part are more damage (only less damage vs units with a 5+ unless you have rend then it goes to a 0sv).  Just an idea for you.

I thought about that option, yet I prefer the consistency of the extra range and Rend. Certainly, such is the case with the six-model units of Dragon Ogors. If I was to test out the Ancient Paired Weapons, I would likely use them with the three-model unit. The six extra attacks is admittedly appealing, though I think the Rend is generally more useful.

By the way, this list goes from 2000pt to 2500pt very easily. I simply add the following:

+1 Beastlord (90pt)

+1 x4 Tuskgor Chariots (200pt)

+1 x10 Ungors (60pt)

+ Desolating Beastherd (150pt)

I'm debating whether the extra Artefact would be the Horn of the Tempest for the Dragon Ogor Shaggoth general, or the Gildenbane for the Beastlord (which is presumably ambushing alongside the Tuskgor Chariots).

At 2500pt, the list also goes conveniently from six drops to two, with all units consolidated into the two battalions.

Whether at 2000pt or 2500pt, I think this list has the potential to challenge both conventional wisdom regarding Beasts of Chaos, as well as some of the more competitive lists currently on the scene. I hope we can continue to explore the opportunities together!

[Maddpainting]

I mean mix and match, paired up front glaives in back/sides. But i understand if you don't like that. Also, does it matter it goes to 2500 easily? 

Its not really challenging the conventional wisdom tho, a few of us try DO time to time and they actually do a lot better in DoT book, you can give them +1 save and opponents can't fallback from them, on top of better casts/powers. For BoC army they are just worst Centigors unless you can actually get their spells off.

IMO if you want to play full DO army, its also best to go Non Greatfray as you are, but IDK if the D3 CP is worth it, i like Father of the Storm a lot, making sure you move extra is really nice in the hero phase, a 6 means you move 14". Also Horn of the Tempest is AMAZING, lets you Run and Charge with your DO's. B.c Rune Blade is now gone with the new Generals Handbook that is a good artefact to replace it with.

 
Here is the raw difference between DO's and Centigors for anyone that is interested.  I still play my 12 or so DO's time to time but just in DoT now.

Spoiler

Centigors equal points to 12 DO vs 5+ save, on the Charge without Drunk = 22.6D, with Drunk = 31.1D
DO equal points to Centigors vs 5+ save, without Saggoth = 21.7D, with Shaggoth rr1's = 25.4
Centigors for 560pts = 70 wounds
DO 560pts = 60 wounds
Centigors 14" movement base with +3" shaman and Run and charge.
NOTE: With point chances, its DO 520pts vs Centigors 560pts now.

 

Edited July 9, 2020 by Maddpainting

[bonhommes_]

Quick question: could someone who owns a Dragon Ogor Shaggoth please tell me how tall the model is? I’m converting one and would like its size to be close to the original model. Thanks in advance!

[Popisdead]

 

5 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

I mean mix and match, paired up front glaives in back/sides. But i understand if you don't like that. Also, does it matter it goes to 2500 easily? 

This is kinda the way I feel 6 should be.  turn the front 3 sideways and have both ranks attack.  Take advantage of the 2" reach.

2 hours ago, bonhommes_ said:

Quick question: could someone who owns a Dragon Ogor Shaggoth please tell me how tall the model is? I’m converting one and would like its size to be close to the original model. Thanks in advance!

Probably anything 5" or bigger is fine.

[Maddpainting]

2 hours ago, bonhommes_ said:

Quick question: could someone who owns a Dragon Ogor Shaggoth please tell me how tall the model is? I’m converting one and would like its size to be close to the original model. Thanks in advance!

Here is a quick pic compare to a DO.

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

1 hour ago, Maddpainting said:

Here is a quick pic compare to a DO.

Oh wow, I didn't know they were so close in size!

[Popisdead]

21 hours ago, Thalassic Monstrosity said:

Oh wow, I didn't know they were so close in size!

When the Shaggoth was released the fluff behind the two things in the hair are those are Ungors.  I would love to see an Ancient Shaggoth by FW or GW.  Give reasons for a new kit too.  New Warscroll.  

[TheArborealWalrus]

 My three shamans for the herd. You can probably tell which one babysits the herd stone. I doubt I’ll ever use 3 but I like to have options. Plus the presently painted one had a mishap with ink color choice and won’t be seeing the battlefield until I fix it. 

Close ups of the conversions

Spoiler

 

 

 

Edited July 10, 2020 by TheArborealWalrus

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

4 hours ago, Popisdead said:

When the Shaggoth was released the fluff behind the two things in the hair are those are Ungors.  I would love to see an Ancient Shaggoth by FW or GW.  Give reasons for a new kit too.  New Warscroll.  

Huh, I never realliy noticed those. I remember when it came out I thought it was brilliant but never picked one up.

[Fazhak]

Welp, a few tweaks to the Thunderscorn list, given the new GHB 2020 changes.

With Malign Sorcery artefacts out, I am shifting the concept a bit in terms of how I kit out the list. The results are rather fun.

I made the decision to go with the Allherd Greatfray, as the Bestial Might ability really complements this list well. With so many Bravery 6, multi-wound models, the Allherd ability lets the big units hopefully shrug off losing a model each turn without the threat of Battleshock. It seems like a small thing while theorycrafting, but the tabletop benefit of such peace of mind is useful.

In this build, I turned my general into a 18" movement buff, giving that Shaggoth both the Dominator command trait and the Horn of the Tempest artefact. That way, the general and its unit of three Dragon Ogors serve as a point around which the larger Thunderscorn teams can pivot.

I am excited that swapping my Great Bray-Shaman for a Doombull seems to be worth it. Equipped with the Blade of the Desecrator, the Doombull holds back for Herdstone duty alongside the Ungor until mid- to late game. At that time, it moves forward as a fresh, high Rend threat to clean up remaining battleline that are holding objectives. In a list that already has three casters, and if used in the way outlined here, I find that the Doombull option is surprisingly more effective than the Great Bray-Shaman, at the same cost.

The other option I examined retained the Great Bray-Shaman, giving it The Knowing Eye in tandem with the general's Ancient Beyond Knowing trait so to hopefully have a solid bank of command points. Other Thunderscorn artefacts were explored to serve as this kind of list's second artefact,  with the Tanglehorn Familiars being surprisingly useful. However, this build was a a bit swingy, dependent as it is on random generation of extra command points. I think I prefer the Doombull option with movement buffs, though I might at some point return to an Ancestral Azyrite Blade - Blade of the Desecrator build.

I keep trying to figure out how to add Wildfire Taurus to the list, as I do think the spell would be useful. However, the points are tight right now.  I might swap out the two Bestigor units with two units of Chaos Warhounds, which would open up points enough for the spell. I am hesitant to do so, since even though I do use the Bestigor as blockers, they are a significant threat in and of themselves. As I test the list, I'll hope to report back and share the experiences.

[Alan Mandelson]

Just got my GHB 2020 and been reading the mission updates (including 2 new missions) and the new Auxiliary objectives.

One of these new missions (The Blade's Edge) is just fantastic for my Beasts play style (fast mass moving board control) because it has 6 objectives, all in no-man's land with 3 in each territory (half board split along the long edge), and scoring 1 point for each objective held at the end of your turn.

Other new mission (Forcing the Hand) looks trickier for us but is still interesting. 1 Objectives in each territory and 2 at the edge of the territories (half the board each territory is 3 sextants in L shapes) 2 belong (not to be confused with holding the objective) to each player (1 inside your territory and another on the edge). At the start of your turn, your opponent picks one of the objectives belonging to them to be worth 3VP and the remaining objectives are worth 1 VP.  You deploy more than 12" from enemy territory. Looks interesting but I think I need to play this one to get a feel for how good beasts are doing it.

Other nice mission changes are that some missions give extra points for holding with Leaders(not Heroes), Battleline or Monsters/Behemoths which I do think this is good for us. 7 of the 12 missions use 50:50 territories (for Desolating Beastherd). And a personal boon for me, they changed the territories for Battle for the Pass (now one 1/3 of the table).

Auxiliary Objectives have a few that look easy enough for us (depending on the mission and the table) but I feel we are vulnerable to being scored against us.

What do you guys think about mission changes from GHB2020 for BoC?

 

[Maddpainting]

On 7/9/2020 at 7:52 PM, Thalassic Monstrosity said:

Oh wow, I didn't know they were so close in size!

Thats b.c its a 25yr old model and made when large models wasn't really a thing lol, It should be 2x as big, here is hoping they remake it and male it on a large behemoth base like the Ghorgon.

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

19 minutes ago, Maddpainting said:

Thats b.c its a 25yr old model and made when large models wasn't really a thing lol, It should be 2x as big, here is hoping they remake it and male it on a large behemoth base like the Ghorgon.

That's a good point. It certainly seemed massive when it came out in comparison to all the old gor and ungor models in the army book.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Thalassic Monstrosity

[TheArborealWalrus]

I was thinking of trying out some dragon ogors and wanted to avoid the old shaggoth model. What have others done for their shaggoths? Thoughts, ideas, or better yet, pictures?

For Morghur!

[Slave2Chaos]

On 7/9/2020 at 11:04 AM, Maddpainting said:

 a few of us try DO time to time and they actually do a lot better in DoT book, you can give them +1 save and opponents can't fallback from them, on top of better casts/powers. For BoC army they are just worst Centigors unless you can actually get their spells off.

Would you care to elaborate on this? Im really interested in running a more dragon ogor focused list and would like any ideas/tactics to get a head start with.

[cyberhawk94]

Hey all, recently got back into AoS and had a few quick questions

1) How viable is a Gravespawn + Pestilent Throng army with lots of MSU? I really like the idea of ~5 Chariots and a few Characters bum-rushing the enemy to soften it up right off the bat, but every list I see around uses Desolating Brayherd instead. 

2) The Slaves allies that Ive seen talked about are a Khorne Prince, Be'lakor, Hypnocat, and a Gaunt Summoner. Any of these particularly useful? The Summoner looks fun but expensive on points. 

3) What endless spells are the go-tos? Any of the generic/tzeentch ones?