cyberhawk94

What size units for Spirit Hosts and Chainrasps? Spirit Hosts feel like 6 so they have a better chance of surviving to take advantage of the "revive models" mechanics with their 3 wounds. But they do have coherency issues then, so maybe 3s? Chainrasps Im think either 10s in the underworld to grab objectives, or a big block of 30 in Reikinor's Condemmed. Though it is possible that 2x20 is better with all the ways to heal them. Any use for the larger units not in RC?

Yea Seraphon's subfactions have a mandatory relics, but the command traits are mandatory IF your general is a specific model (Slann/Saurus/Monster) So if you want to take a specific command trait for your Slann in Koatl's Claw / Thunder Lizard, you can. You just have a set one for saurus generals / generals on a monster respectively

Its just a gmbinder link, you can see that on hover over (a homebrew site many use for DnD). Is there any way to post the changes without a link? hard to have a discussion about it without seeing them I mean you still have the mandatory artefacts. It seems odd that we have a huge list of 15 command traits none of which will ever be used. How Seraphon did it seems to be more how they are going in newer books

Link to the houserules Hey all! Im sure it isn't too controversial of a statement to sat that BoC aren't in the best place right now. I wanted to help them out a bit for home games so that my play groups games felt a bit more even (BoC player felt the need to treat every game like a tourny, tzeetch player felt the need to self-neuter lists against BoC, etc) I didn't want to edit warscrolls due to the added complexity / unintended side effects for other chaos allegiances, and battalions seemed like it would be too easy to miss units or force it into a specific playstyle, so I decided the best way to go would be a homebrew allegiance that is a side-step from a regular one (in the style of Legion of Grief from nighthaunt or Lethisian Defenders from order). Main changes: 1) Addition of the Primal Fury rule from WHFB since none of the allegiance abilities actually helped in combat (and BoC had less than most factions) 2) Brayherd Ambush now works like a normal ambush (turns 1-3), other two sub-races got similar buffs 3) Buffed allherd and darkwalker abilities so gavespawn isn't the 90% sure choice 4) made the greatfray command traits avoidable (like how seraphon did it, I think all subfactions should work like this) In the link above you can see what I landed on, and I would love some feedback on whether I missed the mark, went to far, BoC would still suck with this, etc.

Idk if anyone would be interested, but I recently put together a "houserule" allegiance for Beasts of Chaos for much of the same reasons are are stated in this thread about Sylvaneth (the warscrolls/points costs are mostly fine, the allegiance abilities have simply been left behind at this point. Most armies get ~4 allegiance abilities + a possible terrain, BoC gets 2 allegiance abilities on any given model because of how they wrote them & counting the herdstone as one) Nothing I would try to take to a FLGS or anything, but its made games more fun with my casual friend group, I can actually play my BoC without having to default to the "horde of bodies that just play objectives" playstyle that they are stuck in at the moment. (link for reference) I definitely wouldn't mind putting together something similar for Sylvaneth if there is interest, though since Im not as familiar Id need help with what the problems are / rules from the old book that should be brought back

I think there would be two possible options here. For both, Ambush becomes until turn 4 like the rest of those abilities, and some warscrolls like Hounds and Gors get updated. In addition: 1) Ambush becomes army wide , Brayherd gets some additional benefit (possibly related to ambushing so they are best at it). Darkwalkers gets a completely new benefit, possibly a huge buff when ambushing. 2) A new army-wide rule like Primal Fury. The 3 Herd rules get buffs. Darkwalkers gets a small benefit to replace the turn 2 ambushing. Personally I prefer two, as ambush feels like a brayherd thing to me, and a new army wide combat rule would do a lot to help without having to touch a bunch of warscrolls, but I can definitely see the argument for the army-wide ambush. I can't see buffing the herd rules, adding a rule like Primal Fury, AND having herd-agnostic ambushing without major point changes to go with it. Some edge case like the Ghorgon is going to end up breaking from that.

Changed it to D3+1. consistent on Peasants, 50/50 of 1-2 knights, and 1/3 chance of rezzing a Pegasus

They have the Blessing of the Lady over greatswords, and do less damage. They're closer to Ironbreakers IMO. But honestly theyre just there to be rules for people that bought foot knights for 9th age and similar Huh, thats a good point on the model/unit thing, will change that Restoration on Peg Knights.... Yea I can see that. Nighthaunt does it with spirit hosts but their much weaker. Not sure how to change that to work on Cav but not peg knights... but cant cut it since it was so common in WHFB I wanted to keep it

what do you think of my propsed changes then? at least as a temporary holdover not changing warscrolls, but giving all warherd the ability to re-roll failed wounds after getting a kill makes them really scary, especially with their 6's to wound rules, but ONLY if they get that kill. they become the unit you DONT want to feed chaff to, as that makes them really killy for the rest of the game

Thanks for the feedback! To address your points: The thing with the lance formation is because of pile-in, it only works if you attack first (your opponent can just surround the front of the lance and pull a 4th or 5th model into combat). This is why I make the Lord's CA what it is, its really important to getting lance charges off. Its easy to use on paper to try and make it more about your tactics / the opportunity cost of the command points than trying to get a list of conditions to line up. Field trebuchet was always slightly tougher among the artillery in WHFB, its currently the same stats as a Hellstorm/Celestar but +3 wounds. I could make it unique by knocking down its save but having cover from ranged attacks though, thats easy enough. By using Purity + Champion of the Lady, you can turn peasants into a disgustingly cheap tarpit (5+ ignore wounds + regen), and there is the battalion for Re-rolls to hit. I might change the foot banner for the Noble though, Ill look through the old book and see if there were any items I could copy. Keep in mind the Enchantress spell + Faithful Masses can really ramp up the damage on peasants It was, but I couldnt find a model that wasn't kitbashed. that might just be ignorance though, I can definitely add a +20 points for a pegasus option. Not a typo, there isnt a situation where unit/model makes a distinction in that rule, and model is clearer IMO Is there any egregiously low/high points values you can see? might save me some time lol

First Draft: https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-MQjHdN1xGEoM9-dhOmH No lore blurbs for items and such yet, but warscrolls and allegiance abilities are in there. Would love feedback on balance and design in general. The points costs are rough estimates, I haven't actually sat down and done extensive comparisons yet. Units that should be fairly strong as they are iconic to the army and should be part of Brets strengths: Knights of the Realm, Grail Knights, Trebuchets, Green Knight Units that some people might not have access to so should be on the weak side (basically just have rules for the sake of it): Yeoman, Foot Knights The Green Knight in particular Im looking for feedback on. I had to do most of the design work from scratch as he was pointed equal to the Light of Ethalion with like a 3rd of the abilities (was basically just a Bretonnian Lord with deepstrike and ethereal but no command ability) He shouldn't hit as hard as LoE but is way more mobile, and while not as tanky can resurrect, so they might be close to equal? mobility is the hardest thing to point cost. The other controversial decision I made was to 'cut' Knights Errant as two nearly identical battleline cavalry, especially ones that most people used the same models for, just seemed like unnecessary design. Plus it left a lore opening for Foot Knights, as Knights Errant are young and eager, they might not have 'earned' their steeds yet, etc My goal is to shoot for low B / high C tier, as Ive found homebrew is way easier to feel okay if there is no chance of seeming OP, so most of the units will probably end up ~10-20 points higher than they should be just to help with that goal.

I guess, we have so few units that can re-roll charges (as far as I know only chariots and Warherd near a specific general) that I didnt think it would be an issue. The rule can easily be changed to re-roll charges, thats just less flexible since it is only a benefit for charging, not getting to an objective / in range of a spell / moving a character to buff a charging unit etc Misthavn's +d6" and +1 to charges on their units musicians seemed much stronger to me, since it could even be a 3" charge out of ambush

The new Cities faction (Misthavn) already has this. Theirs costs a CP but also is d6 inches. Not to mention the shenanigans Living City could do before that (more restrictive but still) The problems I was trying to fix with the ambush rules changes I had were two-fold: 1) We are the worst ambush army of all the ambush armies in the game (Draco Tail, Nighthaunt, Stormcast, all arent limited in turn or to board edges) 2) Shadow walkers is the "ambush subfaction" that doesn't really do anything to make your ambush better, it just lets more units ambush. I changed the core rule so we at least can pick the turn, still limited to board edge so still worse than those armies but its at least closer (like living city). And the d3" move was pulled from Misthavn but toned down to a non-Command ability. I thought it fit the lore of shadowwalkers best. Any other bonus on the ambush turn would work here just as well (re-roll charges, +1 to hit or wound, etc) it just needs something to actually be the ambush faction. +d3" is mathematically the same as re-rolling charges, and we aren't always ambushing chariots, and other deep-strike factions dont always ambush things that can re-roll charges. It wouldn't make it a no brainer, it would just make aggressive ambushing an actual option Darkwalkers were the ones that got the +d3", and +d3" and re-roll charges are almost exactly the same mathematically, its just more unique and slightly more flexible

Lance Formation's potential can be mitigated by limiting the strength or size of the units that have access to it. Based of the most recent warscrolls, the only units that even use lances are Knights of the Realm / Errant, Pegasus, and Grail Knights. So I can simply take it into account with the battleline, and limit the max size of the elite units to not be an issue. The problem with a flat buff is a old-school 12 or 15 man lance will always do more damage going 6+ wide then any buffs I can give to 3 models, so they'd never actually be in lance formation

Ah that explains it. You specifically said "Free Peoples" so I grabbed the Knightly Orders warscroll because it is the only specifically Free Peoples cavalry, but it is also an outdated compendium one. Comparing to current warscrolls I see your point

Working on some ideas for a mini-battletome. Keep in mind with this, I am not a writer, just a amateur game designer, so instead of trying to write new lore and incorporate things like the Ascendance of the Grail Knights, I'm going with the tried and true approach of "oh look, the same society somehow evolved thousands of years later in a new universe". So this would be just making bretonnia playable in AoS with its own allegiance abilities, not writing a new army. That said, here are what Im working on for allegiance abilities. You all know the army better than I do, and obviously Ill be tweaking warscrolls and adding artefacts and such, but how does this look? ### Battle Traits ##### Blessing of the Lady Roll a dice each time you allocate a wound or mortal wound to a friendly NOBILITY model. On a 6+, that wound or mortal wound is negated. If a NOBILITY unit retreats from combat or fails a battleshock test, they cannot benefit from this rule for the rest of the game. ##### Lance Formation If exactly 3 models from a friendly BRETONNIA unit are within 1" of an enemy model, every model in that unit can attack with its Lance weapon, regardless of that weapon's range. ##### Peasant's Duty Increase the Bravery characteristic of any friendly PEASANTRY unit by 2 if there is a friendly NOBILITY model within 6" of that unit. ##### Virtues of the Chivalric Knight At the start of your first hero phase, you can pick one of the following virtues to be emulated by your forces in this battle: - **Confidence:** Re-roll failed hit rolls of 1 for friendly NOBILITY models if they made a charge move in the same turn. - **Stoicism:** Friendly NOBILITY units can re-roll failed battleshock tests. - **Empathy:** Friendly PEASANTRY models gain the benefit of the Blessing of the Lady battle trait. - **Purity:** Friendly BRETONNIA WIZARDS add 1 to unbinding and dispelling rolls. - **Heroism:** If the unmodified wound roll for an attack made by a friendly NOBILITY model is 6 and the target is a HERO or MONSTER, that attack inflicts 1 mortal wound on the target in addition to any normal damage. ##### Command Ability **Inspired Virtues:** *Visions of a past hero dance in a noble's mind, guiding him toward honorable victory.* You can use this command ability at the start of your hero phase if your general is on the battlefield. You lose the benefits of your current virtue and choose a new one as though it was the first hero phase.

? As far as I can tell they are the exact same cost per model and Bretonnian is slightly better with its 3+ to hit, but only getting the better save on the charge. (Free Peoples cav are 140 per 5 models, Bretons are 220 per 8 models)

Thank you for taking the time to read through it! The ambush rules have always bothered me. I used to run One-eye just to try and make is usable back when each unit had to roll to come on the board, and currently I have a whole Darkwalkers Brayherd army that I just run as Gavespawn because the ambush faction doesn't actually really give any benefits to the ambush units (just lets new ones ambush), and has 2 useless required upgrades. Like was have an ambush battalion, ambush artefacts, ambush synergies, let us use them!

Definitely fair points, though I was also speaking from a place of making my "house rule" tweaks as simple as possible, something like that would require new warscrolls and vastly change how the army is played. As I said, we would have to care way more about positioning and support heroes than we do now, which I do think is an under-rated strength of the army, as it really allows us to focus on the objectives

Maybe just a new allegiance like they tried to do with Legion of Grief for nighthaunt? leave the warscrolls alone, but give a new set of alliegeance abilities and maybe subfactions so instead of "Allegience: Beasts of Chaos" you'd be "Allegience: Beastmen" and everything else would run the same? Then some of the allegience rules could touch on the struggling units in some way. EDIT: How about something like this? (couldn't get it out of my head lol) https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-MQjmI5TazedXA2t3CBf Basically just buffed the 3 "Herd" rules, added a generic rule (since for some reason we didnt have even one) based on Primal Fury from WHFB, buffed the two lesser-used Greatfrays, and freed them to be able to take other command traits (Seraphon did it like this and its really nice). I did limit the Primal Fury to Battleline to curb possible edge cases with our monsters, and to make your chosen army theme matter more, since your general choice causes either Bestigors, Bullgors, or Dragon Ogres to get the rule. Allherd now has a small combat benefit, and synergizes the best with the core rules (summoning and Primal Fury), and Darkstalkers actually have scary consistent ambushes, especially if you taken the Brayblast Trumpet and a maurading brayherd battalion. I know a few people in here were saying our big issue was the lack of internal synergies, but I think that is actually proper for Beasts. Too chaotic for organized combos and such, plus it lets us be way more flexible in movement phase since we dont need to keep things near a bunch of support heros like Seraphon or Nighthaunt do. Its not going to top any tierlists, but it should be both more viable and more importantly more flexible.

That would be easiest, but it comes with other problems: Limiting the use of current favorites like Desolating Brayherd Ramping up the number of artefacts we have access to in a given game if we can easily take multiple battalions Not allowing fixes to things like Gors or subfactions.

Would there be any interest in a "community-aproved" set of house-rules for Beasts? just like a few small tweaks and/or additional special rules to act as a stop-gap until a new Codex comes out to make casual games less one-sided?

++ **Pitched Battle** (Order - Cities of Sigmar) [1,870pts] ++ + Leader [340pts] + Battlemage [110pts]: Realm Origin? Knight-Venator [110pts]: 2. Deepmire Cloak, General's Adjutant Nomad Prince [120pts]: General . 3. Druid of the Everspring: 3. Ironoak Skin + Behemoth [220pts] + Celestial Hurricanum [220pts] + Battleline [770pts] + Sisters of the Thorn [130pts]: 5 Sisters of the Thorn [130pts], Horn Blower, Standard Bearer Sisters of the Watch [320pts]: 2x 10 Sisters of the Watch [320pts], Honoured Retinue Sisters of the Watch [320pts]: 2x 10 Sisters of the Watch [320pts] + Other [500pts] + Gyrocopters [70pts]: Brimstone Gun, Gyrocopters [70pts] Phoenix Guard [320pts]: 2x 10 Phoenix Guard [320pts], Drummers, Standard Bearer Shadow Warriors [110pts]: 10 Shadow Warriors [110pts] + Allegiance + Allegiance . Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar: Living City + Realm of Origin + Realm of Origin: Origin: Ghyran + Malign Sorcery [40pts] + Endless Spell: Soulsnare Shackles [40pts] The idea here is the Sisters of the Watch, Hurricanum, and Nomad Prince start off the board and come in as a group turn 1. The Pheonix Guard are there to grab a back objective, and the Shadow Warriors, Knight Venator, and Gyro are for clearing chaff, harrassment, etc. When the Sisters Come in, they dont count as having moved, get a +1 to hit, and the Nomad can give them a further +1 to ignore cover/Look Out Sir/ special rules and still hit on a 2+. With 82 shots, they can kill Lord Kroak through his bodyguard in a single turn on average, or split their fire and take out a few important units / support characters right off the bat. Armies like Nighthaunt/Grots/Tzeetch/Seraphon that have good use of squishy heroes can basically have their whole gameplan turned upside down turn 1 with this. The only issue is if the opponent is spread out enough that you cant come in within 18" of good targets, so you may want to wait for turn 2 after they have spread out and your venator+warriors have a chance to thin some chaff units. Other notes: The Venator with the Deepmire Cloak is insanely hard to even target due to his speed, let alone kill. The Sisters of the Thorn are mostly there to be able to drop Soulsnare Shackles near whereever your Archers are coming it at, this Endless spell can give you an entire extra turn of shooting before you are charged with its movement slow, and covers a HUGE (30"x12") area as cities. I have 130 points left Im not sure what to do with. Caster on the hurricanum? 2nd unit of Thorn? an artillery piece? something cheap + a command point? could use some help

I agree terrain pieces would make sense, except that some boards dont have any passable terrain like forests and only have buildings and such, and the "outisde of either players territory" doesnt work on a lot of battleplans where each territory is half the board

Forgotten Waystones After territories have been determined, but before any units have been set up, you may pick up to 1 point in your territory and up to 2 points anywhere on the battlefield to be waystones. You may wish to place suitable markers on these points. If there is a friendly WANDERERS model within 3" of a waystone, that waystone is considered "active". At the start of your hero phase, you can roll 1 dice for each active waystone, adding 1 to the roll per active waystone. For each result of 6+, you gain one command point. In addition, active Waystones have the following ability: *Mystical Aura:* Roll a dice each time you allocate a wound or mortal wound to a friendly WANDERERS unit wholly within 6" of this waystone. On a 6+ the wound or mortal wound is negated. So small areas of the board where you get a 6++, and the ability to boost your command points up (if you control all 3 points you get 3 4+ rolls)