AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion

[Dolomedes]

So our birdboys got updates. I've got some pics of scrolls but I'm not sure if you're allowed to post them or not here. If someone can clarify if that's ok I'll post em.

Big news imo is that enlightened on foot remain at 95 pts. They now have a 4+ save too.

New rules are that enemies within 3" can't issue or receive commands, and if you're going second in the battle round they get a straight +1 to wound.

I think these guys are looking super strong for us for their points. I've been thinking about Bestigor vs Bullgor comparisons lately, but now I think these boys are weighing in too.

Edited September 24, 2022 by Dolomedes

[Myrdin]

On 9/24/2022 at 4:10 PM, Dolomedes said:

So our birdboys got updates. I've got some pics of scrolls but I'm not sure if you're allowed to post them or not here. If someone can clarify if that's ok I'll post em.

Big news imo is that enlightened on foot remain at 95 pts. They now have a 4+ save too.

New rules are that enemies within 3" can't issue or receive commands, and if you're going second in the battle round they get a straight +1 to wound.

I think these guys are looking super strong for us for their points. I've been thinking about Bestigor vs Bullgor comparisons lately, but now I think these boys are weighing in too.

Sounds good. Any changes to either of the mounted versions ? Still hoping Skyfires drop in price, or that there will be a dismounted (and thus cheaper) version of them.

[Dolomedes]

4 hours ago, Myrdin said:

Sounds good. Any changes to either of the mounted versions ? Still hoping Skyfires drop in price, or that there will be a dismounted (and thus cheaper) version of them.

No dismounted version of Skyfires, but there are changes:

1. Now at 4+ save.
2. Vicious beak wounds on 3+, changed from 5+ (same for Enlightened).
3. 'Guided by the future' changed. Skyfire bows now ignore negative modifiers to hit, and positive modifiers to opponent's saves. Pretty nuts.
4. Tzaangor Shaman no longer adds +1 to hit.
5. Shaman - 135pts. Skyfire - 190 pts. Enlightened 95 pts. Enlightened disc 180 pts. Tzaangor 175 pts.

Tzaangor Shaman's Sorcerous Elixir changed notably. Extra spell is still cast once per battle, but instead of rerolling one of the dice, it's now +3 to the casting roll. This means we have a decent chance to get a high cast endless spell off if you take the shaman. With the shaman's high mobility, you're likely to be able to cast it anywhere.

Purple sun, cast on a 5+, wherever you want. The shaman is 135 points, and the sun is 90, so it's a 225 point investment. Even with the purple sun's nerf, I think that's seriously worth considering. Check out this video to see how effective it can be:
 

 

The big winner spell for me though, is the 'Burning Sigil of Tzeentch', at 50 points. The Tzaangor Shaman can cast it, as it's a 'Disciples of Tzeentch' wizard. 18" range, cast on 5+, no movement. At the end of the movement phase, roll D6 for each unit within 9" (including yours). On 4+ take D3 mortal wounds. If any models are slain, before you remove the model, you can set up a 'Tzeentch chaos spawn' within 3" of the unit.

I think this might need a FAQ, but as far as I can tell, if you're playing with a BoC army, there's nothing stopping you from taking the 'Tzeentch Chaos Spawn' from the BoC book rather than the DoT book. This means you can give it the 'Beasts of Chaos' keyword, and if you're running the Gavespawn greatfray, it would gain the 'Gavespawn' keyword. You could then use a CP in the following combat phase to give +1 attack to a friendly unit like a regular gavespawn chaos spawn would. I've checked FAQs, keywords and rules this morning to double check that this is legal, and I can't find anything suggesting that it isn't.

Obviously this is a hideously powerful spell in a Gavespawn list. It's even worth casting at your own units imo, especially on primordial call summons. I'm getting my Malagor model on a 40mm base ASAP so I can run him as a Tzaangor shaman. 

 

 

Edited September 26, 2022 by Dolomedes

[Pariah7echo]

4 hours ago, Dolomedes said:

The big winner spell for me though, is the 'Burning Sigil of Tzeentch', at 50 points. The Tzaangor Shaman can cast it, as it's a 'Disciples of Tzeentch' wizard. 18" range, cast on 5+, no movement. At the end of the movement phase, roll D6 for each unit within 9" (including yours). On 4+ take D3 mortal wounds. If any models are slain, before you remove the model, you can set up a 'Tzeentch chaos spawn' within 3" of the unit.
 

 

 

Beasts can't take the Burning Sigil as its not in our pitched battle profile list. Still +3 to cast taurus or any other critical spell once per game is pretty great considering we don't get any other pluses to cast usually.

[Dolomedes]

1 hour ago, Pariah7echo said:

Beasts can't take the Burning Sigil as its not in our pitched battle profile list. Still +3 to cast taurus or any other critical spell once per game is pretty great considering we don't get any other pluses to cast usually.

It's pretty murky but I wouldn't be surprised if it's illegal. Got someone in GW to ask the rules guys for clarity - hopefully should know for sure by the end of the week.

This article would suggest that we can cast it:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/01/03/rules-preview-disciples-of-tzeentch-endless-spellsgw-homepage-post-3/

FAQ is in order.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Dolomedes

[Pariah7echo]

Well that article is flat out wrong based on the current core rules faq. Question 1 under 27.1 flat out states that you cannot include endless spells, invocations or faction terrain features from an allied faction or a coalition faction. It does leave the door open with an 'unless stated otherwise', but I haven't seen anything in the tzeentch book that specifically allows beasts (or slaves) armies to add the sigil to their armies. Just being able to cast it isn't enough in my opinion.

[Dolomedes]

54 minutes ago, Pariah7echo said:

Well that article is flat out wrong based on the current core rules faq. Question 1 under 27.1 flat out states that you cannot include endless spells, invocations or faction terrain features from an allied faction or a coalition faction. It does leave the door open with an 'unless stated otherwise', but I haven't seen anything in the tzeentch book that specifically allows beasts (or slaves) armies to add the sigil to their armies. Just being able to cast it isn't enough in my opinion.

Aye, it's not clear. DoT wouldn't technically be an 'allied faction' in BoC as it's on the Tzaangor Shaman's warscroll. I suspect it isn't legal, but as it's been legal before it's a grey area. Should know before the end of the week for sure.

[The Red King]

Well Tzaangor shaman arent allies or coalition they're just in the book.

 

That said there is no rule allowing you to add the burning sigil endless spell to a beasts of chaos army so it doesnt matter that he COULD cast it.

Core rules 1.1 states that "every army has a battletome which contains their warscrolls, pitched battle profiles... etc"

1.4 states "all of the units in your army must be from the faction you picked for your army."

25.1 Faction "pitched battle profiles are organized into tables, each of which contains the pitched battle profiles for one faction"

 

So since the burning sigil is not a warscroll that is in our battletome or on our pitched profiles list there is no rule allowing for us to select it and add it to our roster during army creation and thus we don't have access to it in the same way nobody can cast the burning head without bringing the burning head on their roster even though their wizard would be capable of casting it if it was available. 

Long winded way to say that the ability to cast is not the ability to add the spell to your army.

[Popisdead]

On 9/24/2022 at 7:10 AM, Dolomedes said:

So our birdboys got updates.

I see these changes in the app.

 

And yet,.. they cannot fix Slaangors,.. sigh.

[Rors]

So looking at the newest meta watch, nerfs will be coming.

What do you think will get nerfed and how can we adapt?

Half my BoC army is on the painting table and I'm waiting for the other half to arrive by mail so I'm really hoping it's not wrecked before I even get a game in.

[Koala]

Well considering most 5/0 or 4/1 Tournament lists seem to Spam either cockatrice or dragon ogors... those two units are probably going to be quite bad soon enough. 

[Dolomedes]

On 9/30/2022 at 2:14 AM, Rors said:

So looking at the newest meta watch, nerfs will be coming.

What do you think will get nerfed and how can we adapt?

 

2 hours ago, Koala said:

Well considering most 5/0 or 4/1 Tournament lists seem to Spam either cockatrice or dragon ogors... those two units are probably going to be quite bad soon enough. 

I think it's likely to be dragon ogres too. The herdstone has made them really, really strong. Additional rend, the 4+ save, rerolls (1s to hit, wounds from a spell) from the Shaggoth, the 4+ rally, high wound count, multiple sources of healing and high movement all for 125 points. They don't really have a downside.

Compare them with Bullgors, for 130 points:

• Better movement.
• Better save.
• Higher wound count.
• Better hero support.
• Similar damage output.
• Similar access to healing.
• 5 wound models, counting as 2 for objectives.
• Probably some other stuff I haven't mentioned.

I think you could balance Dragon Ogres nicely just by increasing their points cost to 150-160. Maybe the Cockatrice should go up a bit too.

I really, really hope they leave Brayherd alone. They feel just right at the moment. Just the right amount of punch, but you still have to be super careful with your engagements and manoeuvring or everything dies and runs away.

[Popisdead]

On 9/29/2022 at 6:14 PM, Rors said:

So looking at the newest meta watch, nerfs will be coming.

yeah we cannot have nice things.

If they only fixed the Gors and the balance of scrolls instead of say "they have a 60% WR we are nerfing their good things".

[Skreech Verminking]

On 9/26/2022 at 7:27 PM, Pariah7echo said:

Beasts can't take the Burning Sigil as its not in our pitched battle profile list. Still +3 to cast taurus or any other critical spell once per game is pretty great considering we don't get any other pluses to cast usually.

I’m not so certain.

I mean wenstill have the flying beard-things (ko) with their stupid artrfact the spell in the bottle.

if they are able to use that artefact to cast the spell warplightning vortex, why shouldnmt the beasts of chaos not be able to summon the sigil of tzeentch, if one of their hero has the right keywords to do so

[Beliman]

4 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

if they are able to use that artefact to cast the spell warplightning vortex, why shouldnmt the beasts of chaos not be able to summon the sigil of tzeentch, if one of their hero has the right keywords to do so

We have a rule that specially allows that:

Quote

Spell in a Bottle:  Pick 1endless spell. Any endless spell can be chosen (all restrictions are ignored) but you must pay any points required for the model. Once per battle, the bearer can automatically cast that endless spell (do not roll 2D6) and it cannot be unbound.

Btw, there is a FAQ about Endless Spells from allies or Coalition units:

Quote

Q: Can I include endless spells, invocations and faction terrain features from an allied faction or a faction from which I can include coalition in my army?

A: No, unless specifically noted otherwise.

[Pariah7echo]

6 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

if they are able to use that artefact to cast the spell warplightning vortex, why shouldnmt the beasts of chaos not be able to summon the sigil of tzeentch, if one of their hero has the right keywords to do so

Except that Tzeentch isnt an ally for Beasts. Beasts of Chaos only have 1 ally and that's Slaves to Darkness. We're not allowed to take any Tzeentch units (other than the ones in our faction profile) so why would we be allowed to take the Burning Sigil? Hell, we still can't take Slaangors and they have the Beasts of Chaos keyword on their warscroll.

Cities isn't allowed to take Stormcast or Sylvaneth or Daughters of Khaine or Lumineth endless spells and they can actually coalition/ally them in. So clearly just being able to cast a spell doesn't mean you can put it in your list.

2 hours ago, Beliman said:

We have a rule that specially allows that:

Btw, there is a FAQ about Endless Spells from allies or Coalition units:

This is the rule I was referencing earlier. Thanks for quoting it.

[umpac]

So reading the Direflock warscroll, there is nothing stopping me from deploying a shaman outside if unbind range, cast it infront if himself, walk into it and teleport it wherever I want? Effectively giving it infinite range?

[Dolomedes]

On 10/8/2022 at 10:46 AM, umpac said:

So reading the Direflock warscroll, there is nothing stopping me from deploying a shaman outside if unbind range, cast it infront if himself, walk into it and teleport it wherever I want? Effectively giving it infinite range?

Sounds about right.



It's could also be moved by a charge, pile in or some other shenanigans. It's best moved in the combat phase with a pile in or charge, so it's taken off the board for the combat phase, then set up where you want it for the battleshock phase.

Kind of janky imo - I'd rather take the horn, or another chaff unit.

[umpac]

On 10/9/2022 at 12:34 PM, Dolomedes said:

Kind of janky imo - I'd rather take the horn, or another chaff unit.

Maybe. I havent played it, or BoC at all yet, but I played plenty of horrorghast games and that spell has won me so many games. The direflock is 10pts less to have infinite range, much larger radius (within vs wholly within) and also stop rally.

You lose the +d3 flee but only matters in a few match ups. Saw a recent big tourney being won by BoC using one and wondered why I never seen it in lists before. For 30pts it seems like a steal if you can squeeze it in.

[Dolomedes]

15 hours ago, umpac said:

Maybe. I havent played it, or BoC at all yet, but I played plenty of horrorghast games and that spell has won me so many games. The direflock is 10pts less to have infinite range, much larger radius (within vs wholly within) and also stop rally.

You lose the +d3 flee but only matters in a few match ups. Saw a recent big tourney being won by BoC using one and wondered why I never seen it in lists before. For 30pts it seems like a steal if you can squeeze it in.

I think you're right about it being match up dependant. Most folk I play aren't running high model counts, so it's not that useful for me. In the instances where it would be useful, I'm usually committing 20 Bestigor, which tend to kill everything on the charge anyway.

I think it's done well in tournament lists with incarnate. You can bind a bray shaman to the incarnate and get him to kill himself at the herdstone, making the incarnate wild. The direflock then becomes an enemy spell you can use to direct the incarnate, or eat so it levels up. Did the tourney list have an incarnate in?     

[The Red King]

15 hours ago, umpac said:

Maybe. I havent played it, or BoC at all yet, but I played plenty of horrorghast games and that spell has won me so many games. The direflock is 10pts less to have infinite range, much larger radius (within vs wholly within) and also stop rally.

You lose the +d3 flee but only matters in a few match ups. Saw a recent big tourney being won by BoC using one and wondered why I never seen it in lists before. For 30pts it seems like a steal if you can squeeze it in.

The problem with the direflock is that on your opponents turn they can easily move something near it and send it away. They can even pile in close enough to it to send it off before the battleshock phase meaning you only really have control of it once because a smart opponent will pick it up and put it in the farthest corner from you (a really smart opponent will put it in the farthest corner that also has their own units nearby so you cant summon on it either). Though I admit I hadnt considered summoning someone near it to move it but it does let your opponent dictate your placement a bit which can be problematic. 

 

I for one do like the flock though and would probably try it if I wasn't playing against BCR all the time.

[umpac]

2 hours ago, Dolomedes said:

Did the tourney list have an incarnate in?     

No standard mix with shaggoth, shaman, 20 tzaangor, 6 dragon ogors, 12 enlightened and a bunch of screens. The odd pick was tzaangor shaman + direflock.

 

2 hours ago, The Red King said:

The problem with the direflock is that on your opponents turn they can easily move something near it and send it away

True but you can just unbind it in their hero phase. And even if that fails a single important IP block (or rally, plenty of scary 4+ rallies around now) is easily worth 30pts. When I play horrorghast in SCE it rarely has use more than 1 turn anyway.

[The Red King]

Considering it's also matchup dependent and costs the same as the universally applicable doomblast dirgehorn (which I also would only take if the points were laying around) I will personally continue to consider it "sometimes really useful if you have the points spare" but if I had 30 points and no idea what I'd be facing I'd probably opt for the horn myself. Which is too bad because I do really like the spell but with all those "ifs" I wouldn't go into list building intending to bring it. 

[umpac]

On another topic, what is the best tzaangor loadout now?

[Popisdead]

On 10/13/2022 at 3:00 AM, umpac said:

On another topic, what is the best tzaangor loadout now?

UK masters champ tweeted "skyfires MVP" after going 5-0.  take that as you will.