AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Nevar]

I know ALL are ONE in Nagash... but unlike an above poster, I hope Teclis comes in and lays Nagash low again and 'sets Death free' again.  The Necroquake awoke our Nighthaunt, but it also enslaved our spooky boys. Before the Necroquake, there was a note about how the malignants were free willed and it was a mark of power for a Necromancer being able to bend a cairn wraith to his will. Now all the spooky bois are basically rabid dogs on Nagash's leash.

It would be cool to see all the Death factions freed up again and the newly awoken Nighthaunt splintering a bit and becoming their indepenent selves again.  Would be cool if we could have the 'Flesh Eater Court' style ability to be loyal or not in a spectrum like the mad cannibals.  I started my Nighthaunt back before the Necroquake when we only had 4 models specifically because they were supposedly free from Nagash's slavery. So while the influx of models was awesome... the quite literal shackles added to most if not all the faction was a major downside for my narrative draw to the faction.

[Evil Bob]

4 hours ago, DionTheWanderer said:

Thanks - I've ordered a copy of the Forbidden Power book off Ebay.

Am I right in thinking that the only units counted as Battleline for LoG are those which are also Battleline for all other allegiances? So I'll need some skellies or lots more chainrasps to make up a legal army?

Smart move.  The Endless Spells are kind of depressing and the integration of the Prenumbral Engine is FUBAR.

 

The easiest way to double check your Battleline options is to pull out The General’s Handbook 2020 on Deathrattle/Deathwalkers/Nighthaunt (or if you’re a long running LoN player it is essentially the same).  My favorite options remain Direwolves or Chainwrasps.  For maneuverability or cheap durability respectively.  Stepping out outside Nighthaunt  Spirit Hosts and Hexwraiths are out and with the Dolorous Guard that is somewhat of a bummer on the latter.

MOAR Chainwrasp or Skeletons are good in Legion of Grief.  Better return when spending a summoning CP.  Skeletons get better attacks with more models (20+/30+).  It’s difficult to gauge the placement of skeleton’s against the current power creep, so consider your local meta.  Chainwrasp are more of a tarpit although depending on army strucuture I’ll still run them in blocks of twenty.  Which is just odd for a horde unit.  Blocks of forty however are gastly fun if there isn’t a rush on the game speed.

Edited January 28, 2021 by Evil Bob
Deleted a word

[dmorley21]

8 hours ago, Bayul said:

 So imagine a new Nighthaunt Battletome comes with AoS 3.0 this year. What would be your (reasonable) wishlist?

Across-the-board Ethereal, Flying and high Bravery should stay as signature traits of course. Additionally NH units should exploit and benefit from low enemy Bravery across all phases.

Hero Phase: Nighthaunt Wizards need access to spells like

or

It could be interesting if a wizard would get a benefit for unbinding if the enemy caster has a certain bravery.

Shooting Phase: Myrmourn Banshees should lose their roll as spell eaters and behave similar to Crypt Flayers and Tomb Banshees with something like

Movement and Charge phase: Overall low enemy bravery should result in additional movement and charge for e.g. cavalry units. This way Wave of Terror could be more reliable if it depends on low enemy bravery instead of a 10+ roll.

Attack phase: Same as above. Low bravery should benefit attacks, damage and rent. 

Deployment: LoN's Gravesites should replace From the Underworld and They Come and Spectral Summons for deployment, summoning and regeneration.

Unit reworks:

– Glaivewraith Stalkers should become relevant again for example as Monster hunters with -2 Rend (like Savage Big Stabbas)
– Mortis Engine receives the NIGHTHAUNT keyword and the Ethereal trait.
– Guardian of Souls with Mortality Glass is a thing again.
– Demote Dreadblade Harrows to a unit. Nighthaunt have enough heros already and the dual box is weird. Give them an ability to transport themselves and an additonal unit to each other. You'll have an actual reason to run two Dreadblade Harrows this way.
– Maybe no more stupid Black Coach levels?

I find it interesting how we all agree that Nighthaunt needs significant changes, but we don't agree on what those changes should be. I think it all goes back to the fact that they didn't know exactly what they wanted Nighthaunt to be. 

I, for one, would hate to see their From the Underworld They Come and Spectral Summons go away. I also would be open to seeing the army's bravery drop if it meant we had more ways to drop the opponent's bravery. After all, I have trouble imagining ghosts being very brave. It seems like when the going gets tough, they would just fade away. Maybe that comes from me playing them so much back in the days of WHFB. 

Realistically though, I'd expect the following done through either a Broken Realms book or the next battletome: 

- Subfactions

- New warscroll for Glaivewrath Stalkers

- Changing Wave of Terror to make it a fight at the start of the combat phase and then again during the regular combat phase (which I wouldn't necessarily like, but based on what we've seen happen in other books this would make sense) 

 

Anything else would just be gravy (hopefully... new books don't always mean a power boost... just look at poor Sylvaneth). 

[EnixLHQ]

12 hours ago, dmorley21 said:

I might play with that a little bit as I'd like a 4th hero but that's the current concept. I like the amount of threats it has and its versatility. 

Don't be afraid to make that Spirit Torment the general with RotSH on him. You could commit that murderball of Spirit Hosts to otherwise insane matchups that would otherwise be suicide and really shape board tactics.

 

10 hours ago, Bayul said:

 So imagine a new Nighthaunt Battletome comes with AoS 3.0 this year. What would be your (reasonable) wishlist?

Across-the-board Ethereal, Flying and high Bravery should stay as signature traits of course. Additionally NH units should exploit and benefit from low enemy Bravery across all phases.

Though I love of the concept of an army that benefits off of Bravery like this, it's not going to elevate us out of the ditch we're in without it causing ripple effects down the line. High Bravery armies would shut us down without requiring any actual gameplay to do it unless we have reliable ways to lower it like you pointed out, but by giving us reliable Bravery reduction tools we will decimate low Bravery armies without much effort on our part. That will cause those armies to get a higher Bravery scaling when their books re-release. I think GW kind of screwed the pooch when they started handing out high Bravery to non-Death units because it ultimately made Bravery a non-issue for most armies except the horde ones, and then fixed that by making sure those armies always had a way to cheat battleshock.

As much as I would love it, I don't see Bravery being a huge mechanic unless AoS 3.0 rewrites how it works fundamentally.

8 hours ago, DionTheWanderer said:

Thanks - I've ordered a copy of the Forbidden Power book off Ebay.

Am I right in thinking that the only units counted as Battleline for LoG are those which are also Battleline for all other allegiances? So I'll need some skellies or lots more chainrasps to make up a legal army?

Battlelines are determined by the army, not the unit. So some units might be battleline in one configuration but not another.

In this case, LoG's battlelines are: Chainrasp Horde, Dire Wolves, Skeleton Warriors, and Zombies.

In Nighthaunt the battlelines are: Chainrasp Horde, Grimghast Reapers, Hexwraiths, and Spirit Hosts.

All of those Nighthaunt units are allowed in LoG, but don't keep their battleline designation.

[EnixLHQ]

On 1/28/2021 at 11:04 AM, Nevar said:

I know ALL are ONE in Nagash... but unlike an above poster, I hope Teclis comes in and lays Nagash low again and 'sets Death free' again.  The Necroquake awoke our Nighthaunt, but it also enslaved our spooky boys. Before the Necroquake, there was a note about how the malignants were free willed and it was a mark of power for a Necromancer being able to bend a cairn wraith to his will. Now all the spooky bois are basically rabid dogs on Nagash's leash.

It would be cool to see all the Death factions freed up again and the newly awoken Nighthaunt splintering a bit and becoming their indepenent selves again.  Would be cool if we could have the 'Flesh Eater Court' style ability to be loyal or not in a spectrum like the mad cannibals.  I started my Nighthaunt back before the Necroquake when we only had 4 models specifically because they were supposedly free from Nagash's slavery. So while the influx of models was awesome... the quite literal shackles added to most if not all the faction was a major downside for my narrative draw to the faction.

You know, I agree. Hard agree. No disrespect to our bonedaddy, but I have always had my Nighthaunt lore separated from him. Even going so far as finding ways to break free from him and plot revenge. I would love that as a mainline story arc, where Lady O, or perhaps even more so Kurdoss, is driven by a mad revenge against Nagash for his twisted sense of justice.

On 1/28/2021 at 3:41 PM, dmorley21 said:

I find it interesting how we all agree that Nighthaunt needs significant changes, but we don't agree on what those changes should be. I think it all goes back to the fact that they didn't know exactly what they wanted Nighthaunt to be. 

I think this is exactly it. When NH came out it was a new concept for a new version of AoS and perfectly pitted against Stormcast, but at the cost of sacrificing its own lore.

To tie back into my lore rant from earlier, Nighthaunt having a Bravery of 8 or 6 when on the field without Olynder in the army would make sense. Or still have 10, but it degrades over time, like -1 per round or something. Because the commanders would be pulling double-duty trying to both herd cats into the same direction for an attack, while also keeping those cats subservient enough to be that attacking force. If you didn't want to have to deal with that mechanic, drop Olynder on the table and suddenly the entire army is Bravery 10.

But we're all over the place in terms of what we'd like to see in a tome because we're all very cognisant of how we're broken, I think. We all know where we lack, because we've felt it on the table over and over again. But we also have no idea what future armies are going to look like. Or what AoS 3 would look like.

It's been a while since I played AoS (been WarCrying it lately), but the last time we did we ran with a NH faction ability house rule: After the battleshock phase roll a D6 for each Nighthaunt model that fell earlier this turn, including those that fled from battleshock. On a 6 remove one wound from that model and return it to its unit. If there is no unit to return a model to, make no roll; that model is lost. Doing this at the end of the turn before passing it off to the next player to start meant that you still had to try to resurrect models during gameplay, since your spells or RothSH, or the Black Coach were the only mostly guaranteed ways of bringing them back, but you could potentially revive a few when we are at our weakest. Plus it was easy to remember to do, since it's the tally/move the models off the board phase.

That one house rule made me feel like I was balanced again. My opponents, even if they really hated the idea when first asked to let me try it, afterwards said that the games played with it were so much more challenging, tactical, and fun, while never feeling like I robbed them of their power or that I was overpowered myself.

Edited February 10, 2021 by EnixLHQ

[dmorley21]

 

1 hour ago, EnixLHQ said:

Don't be afraid to make that Spirit Torment the general with RotSH on him. You could commit that murderball of Spirit Hosts to otherwise insane matchups that would otherwise be suicide and really shape board tactics.

That's true, but then I've got my own murderball and I just feel like it's too easy to neutralize a single muderball in AoS... especially a Nighthaunt one. I've always had the most success with Nighthaunt competitively (just local one day tournaments in the U.S.) when I fielded an army that featured multiple threats that my opponents had to take into account. With my current list I'd have the following:

Lady O / Dolorous Guard Hexwraiths

Grimghast Reapers

Spirit Hosts + Spirit Torment

I'd have the option of splitting up the two units of Spirits and the Black Coach and Harrow are mobile enough to go deliver support where needed. I also just think Lady O with Dolorous Guard is a game changer for me... really opened up my offensive abilities. 

7 hours ago, Nevar said:

I know ALL are ONE in Nagash... but unlike an above poster, I hope Teclis comes in and lays Nagash low again and 'sets Death free' again.  The Necroquake awoke our Nighthaunt, but it also enslaved our spooky boys. Before the Necroquake, there was a note about how the malignants were free willed and it was a mark of power for a Necromancer being able to bend a cairn wraith to his will. Now all the spooky bois are basically rabid dogs on Nagash's leash.

It would be cool to see all the Death factions freed up again and the newly awoken Nighthaunt splintering a bit and becoming their indepenent selves again.  Would be cool if we could have the 'Flesh Eater Court' style ability to be loyal or not in a spectrum like the mad cannibals.  I started my Nighthaunt back before the Necroquake when we only had 4 models specifically because they were supposedly free from Nagash's slavery. So while the influx of models was awesome... the quite literal shackles added to most if not all the faction was a major downside for my narrative draw to the faction.

 

1 hour ago, EnixLHQ said:

You know, I agree. Hard agree. No disrespect to our bonedaddy, but I have always had my Nighthaunt lore separated from him. Even going so far as finding ways to break free from him and plot revenge. I would love that as a mainline story arc, where Lady O, or perhaps even more so Kurdoss, is driven by a mad revenge against Nagash for his twisted sense of justice.

I also totally agree here. I'd love to see at least some of Nighthaunt not be just servants of Nagash. I think it's unlikely for Lady Olynder to turn, but Reikenor always made a lot of sense to me based on his limited lore of being one to find a way out of Nagash's control and to then seek revenge. Then you could have two subfactions - one led by Lady O/Kurdoss and one led by Reikenor. Olynder's could focus on returning spirits while Reikenor's could be more of a quick strike army. 

The way I see it, Nighthaunt has elements of movement shenanigans, tankability, deadly charges, reviving units, and bravery shenanigans. That's 5 subfactions right there. If they choose to rewrite the army and focus one just one or two of those things, I'd much rather play an army that focuses on a combo of movement shenanigans and deadly charges - but that's just me. But many of you would prefer to play differently, so I'm hoping for different subfactions that focus on each of those items. 

[Nevar]

As far as I am concerned... as an OG Nighthaunt player before we even had a battletome... our faction was Fly, Ethereal, and Frightful Touch.  When they started showing off the new units, I was -sure- we would see universal Mortals on natural 6's across the entire army.  People here argued it would be overpowered at the time.

Since then we have seen MW's on 5+ for spider goblins, MW's on all Vanari aelves on natural 6's plus spells to make it 5+'s.  In modern AoS, extending Spectral Touch out to all of our units as a faction wide ability would be more than in line. Especially if it stayed natural 6's only.  The whole fluff of Spectral Touch is that some of their hits phase through armor and reality... the loss of that as the faction defining thing in exchange for the Wave of Terror was a major sad for me.  Essentially if they kept Fly, Ethereal, and extended Spectral Touch to the entire army, I would be a happy camper. Anything after that would just be gravy to me.

Our 6+ MW's even replaces damage instead of being in addition to like all kinds of other units. Come on man.

[DionTheWanderer]

10 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

Battlelines are determined by the army, not the unit. So some units might be battleline in one configuration but not another.

In this case, LoG's battlelines are: Chainrasp Horde, Dire Wolves, Skeleton Warriors, and Zombies.

In Nighthaunt the battlelines are: Chainrasp Horde, Grimghast Reapers, Hexwraiths, and Spirit Hosts.

All of those Nighthaunt units are allowed in LoG, but don't keep their battleline designation.

My slight issue is that every model in my army is quite heavily converted, which makes horde units a bit of a pain. However, I have enough battleline units to run it as a NH force, and can slowly build up my other units to allow LoG or GHN allegiance in future. 

[EnixLHQ]

4 hours ago, DionTheWanderer said:

My slight issue is that every model in my army is quite heavily converted, which makes horde units a bit of a pain. However, I have enough battleline units to run it as a NH force, and can slowly build up my other units to allow LoG or GHN allegiance in future. 

You could go the Dire Wolves route, then. Minimum 5 to a unit, max 30. Same base size as Hexwraiths or Dreadblade Harrow.

Would mean at the minimum 10 models to convert.

[Thamalys]

14 minutes ago, EnixLHQ said:

You could go the Dire Wolves route, then. Minimum 5 to a unit, max 30

Always take 5. Dire Wolves are one of the best units in the game (yes), being very fast, very cheap and very capable to screen a solid fraction of the board with just 5 models (big bases). In a unit of 5 they are also practically immune to bravery and they are much more easily put into cover. 5, always 5.

[Zashier29]

Not sure if this has been answered, but I've been playing against Reapers of Vengeance Khorne and Hermdar Fyreslayers and I'm having issues with fight twice fight in succession, and fight first, especially with Soul Cage, which does nothing in the face of most abilities like Hermdar's Command ability. Any tips on playing against any of these type of abilities?

[Evil Bob]

5 hours ago, Zashier29 said:

Not sure if this has been answered, but I've been playing against Reapers of Vengeance Khorne and Hermdar Fyreslayers and I'm having issues with fight twice fight in succession, and fight first, especially with Soul Cage, which does nothing in the face of most abilities like Hermdar's Command ability. Any tips on playing against any of these type of abilities?

Both of those armies are using support heroes heavy.  They are not that different from Nighthaunt with them being low wound count.   Fyreslayers in particular lose allot of kick if you pick off the right targets.

Ranged Attacks

• Chaingasts
• Briar Queen
• Coach
• Olynder

Magic

• Lifestealer
• Arcane  Bolt
• The Grimhailer’s spell (corpse candles for a bonus)
• Arkhan the Black (for magic missile spam)

Movement Tricks

• Hexwraiths (with the pass-over attack)
• Vampire Lord on Abysmal Terror (his spell can allow for a mobile unit to possibly bypass the front ranks)
• Glaivewraith Stalkers (surivive a round and try to retreat/charge)

 

Edited January 31, 2021 by Evil Bob
Forgot Arkhan

[Samukai]

Since there is some talk about the future of Nighthaunt and potential subfactions i made two a while back to experiment with that very idea. When testing the 'Wave of Terror' ability was removed from the game, overall it was a boost to the power level for sure with these new allegiance abilties but it was not unreasonable, i won slightly more than i lost if memory serves.

There are some wording/formatting errors, i will update them and rebalnce them when i get a chance to test a bit more.

[EnixLHQ]

6 hours ago, Samukai said:

Since there is some talk about the future of Nighthaunt and potential subfactions i made two a while back to experiment with that very idea. When testing the 'Wave of Terror' ability was removed from the game, overall it was a boost to the power level for sure with these new allegiance abilties but it was not unreasonable, i won slightly more than i lost if memory serves.

These are really interesting. Thanks for sharing!

[Thamalys]

@Samukai, House Valentian is filthy AF... I'm in to it!

Jokes aside, I would love for the Craven King to actually be of some use... let us hope!

[Samukai]

3 minutes ago, Thamalys said:

@Samukai, House Valentian is filthy AF... I'm in to it!

Jokes aside, I would love for the Craven King to actually be of some use... let us hope!

It seems likely that when Nighthaunt inevitably get subfactions that some would be focused on named heroes, we can indeed hope! 

I kind of want to make another one now damn it.

[dmorley21]

There’s an interesting list playing in the Hammertime 7 tournament on TTS this Saturday. 
 

45 Hexwraiths / Dolorous Guard / Forogtten Scions / Guardian of Souls / Vampire Lord

Not my style, but I’ll be curious to see how that list does. Talk about being able to pump out mortal wounds. 
 

Are any of you the person running that list?

[Thamalys]

22 hours ago, dmorley21 said:

45 Hexwraiths

As in 4 units of 5, I should hope? 

[dmorley21]

4 minutes ago, Thamalys said:

As in 4 units of 5, I should hope? 

Ha nope. Here was the list... looks like it wen 1-2 beating a Tzeentch. 

[Thamalys]

5 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

Ha nope. Here was the list... looks like it wen 1-2 beating a Tzeentch. 

Wow... no, not my cup of tea either, but hey, nothin wrong in taking advantage of the TTS fever, I suppose. Getting models back must be tough with "just" the Guardian of Souls and the VL, given that the Hexwraiths are 2 wounds apiece... very fast list, though. Did they stream the game? I'd be curious to see how it went down.

[dmorley21]

17 hours ago, Thamalys said:

Wow... no, not my cup of tea either, but hey, nothin wrong in taking advantage of the TTS fever, I suppose. Getting models back must be tough with "just" the Guardian of Souls and the VL, given that the Hexwraiths are 2 wounds apiece... very fast list, though. Did they stream the game? I'd be curious to see how it went down.

Didn't see a stream of it. But yeah, it's a really interesting list. Even with all of the additional attacks in that list, I don't think Hexwraiths have enough offense to get the job done. They could really use their scythes matching the rest of the army with Reaps like Corn and 2" reach. And you made a good point about not enough ability to bring them back. A Black Coach and Spirit Torment would really help that list.

[El Antiguo Guardián]

They´re good hitting on some points of the table, but I´m not sure about that cool list fighting vs top list on a tournament.

[Maxo Bug]

On 1/28/2021 at 10:07 PM, EnixLHQ said:

You know, I agree. Hard agree. No disrespect to our bonedaddy, but I have always had my Nighthaunt lore separated from him. Even going so far as finding ways to break free from him and plot revenge.

Well, I like the fact that GW even took that in mind in our current battletome. On page 18 you can find a small section, "Chainwraiths", which mentions a spectral host, cursed by Nagash and freed by accident by Idoneth Deepkin, that not only hate the living, "but also take their revenge upon any undead that serve Nagash". So that's canon already 🙃

I know it's not the same as the full faction being "independent", but it's something, right?

 

 

Edited February 8, 2021 by Maxo Bug

[Maxo Bug]

On 1/28/2021 at 11:24 AM, Bayul said:

 So imagine a new Nighthaunt Battletome comes with AoS 3.0 this year. What would be your (reasonable) wishlist?

(...)

Unit reworks:
– Glaivewraith Stalkers should become relevant again for example as Monster hunters with -2 Rend (like Savage Big Stabbas)
– Mortis Engine receives the NIGHTHAUNT keyword and the Ethereal trait.
– Guardian of Souls with Mortality Glass is a thing again.
– Demote Dreadblade Harrows to a unit. Nighthaunt have enough heros already and the dual box is weird. Give them an ability to transport themselves and an additonal unit to each other. You'll have an actual reason to run two Dreadblade Harrows this way.
– Maybe no more stupid Black Coach levels?

I know I'm late for the party, but: ALL OF THE ABOVE.

Except I don't know much about the Black coach, and in addition would give the Glaivewraith Stalkers 2 wounds each. They even are a fusion of two souls lore-wise, and would separate them further from the Revenants, being a more elite durable and small unit.

I also wish for the Tomb Banshee to be a thing (remember her?) and the Lord Executioner to deal mortal wounds. He's an executioner FFS! The ability is even called "Beheading strike"! What's a more "mortal wound" than that?

I'm not quite sure about this, but I'd make Ruler of the Spirit Host a command ability instead of a command trait. So, army wide, opening more options instead of being the go-to. Even if you prefer something else like... what? Cloaked in shadow, maybe, you would not tell me that you don't want to have a free RotSH, would you?

There are many minor things like that that irk me and would like to see them fixed (like the Dreadblade Harrows being more prominent heroes than other captains, like the one they serve), but above all I'd like to see the faction become the scary thing they are supposed to be, either with better use of a more relevant bravery, sheer power, or both.

Still, it's good to see people still loyal and enthusiastic about the ghosties! 👻
 

[EnixLHQ]

6 hours ago, Maxo Bug said:

Well, I like the fact that GW even took that in mind in our current battletome. On page 18 you can find a small section, "Chainwraiths", which mentions a spectral host, cursed by Nagash and freed by accident by Idoneth Deepkin, that not only hate the living, "but also take their revenge upon any undead that serve Nagash". So that's canon already 🙃

I know it's not the same as the full faction being "independent", but it's something, right?

Good enough for me! Also, thanks for finding that, I was looking everywhere for that.