AoS 2 - Legion of Blood Discussion

[Iron Fist]

Hi,

I will try that:

Allegiance: Legion of Blood

Leaders
Vampire Lord On Zombie Dragon (440)
- General
- Deathlance & Shield & Chalice
- Trait: Aristocracy of Blood 
- Artefact: Orb of Enchantment 
- Lore of the Vampires: Vile Transference
Prince Vhordrai (480)
- Lore of the Vampires: Amaranthine Orb
Necromancer (110)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Fading Vigour

Battleline
40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)
- Ancient Spears
5 x Dire Wolves (60)
5 x Dire Wolves (60)

Units
10 x Blood Knights (480)

Endless Spells
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 1970 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 123
 

What do you think about?

[Lightbox]

So I picked up a box of khinerae a while back for my daughters of khaine. They are still unbuilt and unused. As such I'm wondering what sort of cool vampiric conversions/kitbashes could I do with them? The lack of vampire infantry always upsets me and it could be cool to make some counts as units to give the army the more vampiric feel. I've considered making them counts as myrmourn banshees as they have wings for fly and could be like cool mage hunting vampiric thralls. Alternatively I could have them counts as fell bats?

 

General ideas for vamping up death units in general could be cool. (Freeguild greatswords with vampire heads as vampiric thrall graveguard perhaps?)

[jjb070707]

52 minutes ago, Lightbox said:

So I picked up a box of khinerae a while back for my daughters of khaine. They are still unbuilt and unused. As such I'm wondering what sort of cool vampiric conversions/kitbashes could I do with them? The lack of vampire infantry always upsets me and it could be cool to make some counts as units to give the army the more vampiric feel. I've considered making them counts as myrmourn banshees as they have wings for fly and could be like cool mage hunting vampiric thralls. Alternatively I could have them counts as fell bats?

 

General ideas for vamping up death units in general could be cool. (Freeguild greatswords with vampire heads as vampiric thrall graveguard perhaps?)

I like the way you think. Perhaps when they update soulblight they will give us actual vampiric infantrymen, but graveguard would be awesome as vampire based conversion targets.

[Undeadly]

I'd maybe recommend Bladegheists, but they are Nighthaunt exclusive unit, so maybe use Grimghasts instead? They seem pretty blendy, have fly, and a unit leader with a special weapon.  Why not use them as Vampire Infantry?

[Lightbox]

6 hours ago, Undeadly said:

I'd maybe recommend Bladegheists, but they are Nighthaunt exclusive unit, so maybe use Grimghasts instead? They seem pretty blendy, have fly, and a unit leader with a special weapon.  Why not use them as Vampire Infantry?

That's a nice idea. I'd need to pick up another 5 khinerai to get the 10 minimum but it could work!

[Lightbox]

So yesterday I fought deepkin with the following 1500pt list:

1 x VLoZD - Etheral Amulet & Aura of Dark Majesty
1 x Flying horro VL
1 x Nightmare VL

2 x 5 dire wolves
1 x 20 Chainrasp
2 x 5 Blood Knights

Long story short: It did not go well at all. Deepkin eel lists bloody hurt! I think in total I killed 2 or 3 eels? And I got tabled. This was in part due to god awful dice rolls, also the fact that screening dire wolves don't work too well against flying eels. In the first turn I lost a flank of 5 dire wolves and 5 blood knights to a concentrated charge of deepkin. Unfortunately I couldn't force any battleshock due to the pesky eidolan buffing bravery (and my inability to do much killing).

Although I did not really get to test the list properly due to poor luck I think it could be said that it was not a well built or well played list.

I am considering the following for a 2k list though:

VLoZD - General
Prince Vhordrai

3 x 5 dire wolves
2 x 5 blood knights

Allies:
1x Ghoul King on terrorgheist (another monster and to try out the summoning flayers)

Currently I just need to pick up vhordrai though I'm also a bit unsure about this list, it might need to be built more for anti bravery to really make use of the ghoul king and terrorghiest though I need to check if he can summon more than just flayers as crypt horrors could be useful instead? (I do not know much about FeC as haven't played them much)

Would it be worth dropping the prince or king to get more bodies or blood knights? I do kind of like the idea of running my terrorgheist even though I worry the wolves in units of 5 might not do enough. This is mostly for an all comers sort of list, against deepkin eels it may even be worth dropping in 40 skeles and a necromancer. But regardless I'm trying to start getting an idea of a strong list for the LoB though competitiveness isn't a big issue as we're a fairly casual meta down my club it's still nice to have ideas of what to take for serious games.

 

Another possible idea:

1 x Vlozd
1 x Coven throne
1 x VL on nightmare

3 x 5 Dire wolves
2 x 5 Blood knights

Allies:
1 x ghoul king on terrorgheist

1900/2000 for 2 bonus CP

This version gives me the +1 attack command ability and more command points for ghoul kings summons and dropping command abilities, though I've no clue how much Vhordrai himself adds to the list as never had a chance to use him yet. Still the same idea of hit hard, fast and kill the enemies bodies. Whilst bringing direwolves back to then in theory sit on objectives I've managed to plunder.

 

Another alternative:

1 x Neferata
1 x Bloodseeker Palanquin
1 x Vhordrai
1 x VLoZD

3 x 5 Wolves

Court of Nu-Lhamia battalion

1920/2000 bonus 1 cp

All out balls out on the monster heroes and the ability to use neffy!

Edited August 9, 2018 by Lightbox

[ianob]

I'm just going to leave this here because I'm never going to get round to testing it properly (or using a non-proxy Palanquin and Neferata), but maybe someone else can take it and run with it

 

Neferata - Overwhelming Dread

VLoZD - Doppelganger Cloak, Vile Transference

VLoZD - Miasmatic Blade, Amethystine Pinions

Bloodseeker Palanquin - Amaranthine Orb

3*10 Chainrasps

Court of Nulahmia

+1 CP

 

This list is really good. It might be the best Death list after Nagash (grand claim). 

[Lightbox]

2 minutes ago, ianob said:

I'm just going to leave this here because I'm never going to get round to testing it properly (or using a non-proxy Palanquin and Neferata), but maybe someone else can take it and run with it

 

Neferata - Overwhelming Dread

VLoZD - Doppelganger Cloak, Vile Transference

VLoZD - Miasmatic Blade, Amethystine Pinions

Bloodseeker Palanquin - Amaranthine Orb

3*10 Chainrasps

Court of Nulahmia

+1 CP

 

This list is really good. It might be the best Death list after Nagash (grand claim). 

Hmm 2 basic dragons for maxing on dragons with artifacts could be a good idea! I'll have to give this list a try

How come chainrasps and not doggies though? Also do batallions gives extra cp as well as artifacts? (never used any before and can't remember the ruling off the top of my head)

[smucreo]

Doppelganger Cloak seems like the best artefact for any list running multiple dragons, be it a Legion of Blood list or the dreaded Order Dragon-Spam list. It's so good to just charge carelessly into units with both of them and having the opponent not be able to react until you have already stomped the defending units. 

[ianob]

15 minutes ago, smucreo said:

Doppelganger Cloak seems like the best artefact for any list running multiple dragons, be it a Legion of Blood list or the dreaded Order Dragon-Spam list. It's so good to just charge carelessly into units with both of them and having the opponent not be able to react until you have already stomped the defending units. 

It's the best artifact for anything big that wants to get into a fight. It's borderline broken.

Dont dread the Order Draconis list, its not that scary in reality, but it is upsetting theat their list is undercosted by like 250 points whilst we have to pay 320 for a Bloodseeker Palanquin  and 400 for Neferata

 

17 minutes ago, Lightbox said:

Hmm 2 basic dragons for maxing on dragons with artifacts could be a good idea! I'll have to give this list a try

How come chainrasps and not doggies though? Also do batallions gives extra cp as well as artifacts? (never used any before and can't remember the ruling off the top of my head)

Chainrasps are tougher, have double the number of attacks, and they get models back on a 1 on a Deathly D3 whereas dogs dont. You dont need speed in this list, you need to eke out every bit of survivability and fightiness that you can from your crappy amounts of battleline because they have to carry a lot of weight on their shoulders. You certainly wouldn't be horribly wrong running dogs instead though. I've considered dropping one unit of rasps to dogs to almost guarantee the triumph for T1. If you run 20 Dogs instead of 30 Rasps, make sure to run them 10/5/5 though (not 5/5/5/5) as 5 drops count would be too high.

 

Edited August 9, 2018 by ianob

[Goddin]

On 8/9/2018 at 4:07 AM, ianob said:

I'm just going to leave this here because I'm never going to get round to testing it properly (or using a non-proxy Palanquin and Neferata), but maybe someone else can take it and run with it

 

Neferata - Overwhelming Dread

VLoZD - Doppelganger Cloak, Vile Transference

VLoZD - Miasmatic Blade, Amethystine Pinions

Bloodseeker Palanquin - Amaranthine Orb

3*10 Chainrasps

Court of Nulahmia

+1 CP

 

This list is really good. It might be the best Death list after Nagash (grand claim). 

So, if you look back at page 2,  I posted this same list with Direwolves instead of Chainrasps.  I won local tournaments with this list before the new edition, and I think it has only become stronger with the new realm artifacts available.  The mobility always seems to surprise people.   I do prefer the dogs, 10/5/5 for 4 drops, because the dogs are used as a screen when you need one and they can keep up with the dragons.  Chainrasps tend to get left in the dust unfortunately.  Also, since you have the extra CP, bringing back the unit of 10 dogs is not a bad choice.  I wouldn't waste that on 10 chainrasps.

I think your spell choices are all correct except I would take Spirit Gale over Amethystine Pinions, you have enough movement as it is.  Artifacts as well I think are great, though I like the Dimensional Blade that gives -3 rend and pairs well with the Miasmatic Blade myself.

 

[ianob]

I think you’ll probably find that those choices are fine for local tournaments but for high level competitive games you’ll get torn up bits without a way to protect your dragons - local level players are susceptible to “OMG dragons” paralysis (which is probably contributors to why you’d be able to win events with this in v1 when it was not a very good list, not to take anything away from your victories!) but good players less so. That’s why the artifacts are so important. Cloak in particular is SO good you’d be insane to leave home without it. Pinions is there for the same reason; you won’t need it vs middling players but the ability to get around/over a screen is critical vs better players who are screening, or the ability for your dragon to deploy defensively and still have the speed to charge can be important also.

Dogs certainly aren’t the “wrong” choice here but your board presence is bad. Chainrasps have double the attacks over 5 dogs and a better save, plus they get models back on a 1 where wolves don’t. Losing the move sucks but being fast doesn’t mean anything if you can’t take/hold an objective. In the 2018 mission set you *must* be able to leave small combat capable units in various places on the field and dogs don’t cut it without support, which they won’t be getting as your other units will be tied up. And in any case if the rasps need to reach a far obj, you can use a gravesite. I know rasps vs dogs is counterintuitive for a lot of people who’ve been dog fans for a long time, but as units like spite revenants, liberators, and even namarti thralls become objective sitters nowadays, dogs just can’t cut it.

 

Edited August 10, 2018 by ianob

[Lightbox]

So with my getting back into playing my death and wanting to run a double dragon list here's a new vampire lord I've made to run on a dragon (which for now will be my terrorgheist)

 

Quite happy with him, arkhan makes for some nice ornate armour, should make him make a good prince vhordrai stand in too!

 

He's also midway through casting a spell for all that dynamic fun!

Edited August 10, 2018 by Lightbox

[Honk]

Looks awesome!!!

 

I really like the LoN Book and all the crazy stuff you can do with it.  Especially if you‘re able to play in a beer&pretzel (casual fun oriented) environment. So much Crazy things possible and fun to play.

[Deadkitten]

On 8/10/2018 at 12:53 PM, ianob said:

I think you’ll probably find that those choices are fine for local tournaments but for high level competitive games you’ll get torn up bits without a way to protect your dragons - local level players are susceptible to “OMG dragons” paralysis (which is probably contributors to why you’d be able to win events with this in v1 when it was not a very good list, not to take anything away from your victories!) but good players less so. That’s why the artifacts are so important. Cloak in particular is SO good you’d be insane to leave home without it. Pinions is there for the same reason; you won’t need it vs middling players but the ability to get around/over a screen is critical vs better players who are screening, or the ability for your dragon to deploy defensively and still have the speed to charge can be important also.

Dogs certainly aren’t the “wrong” choice here but your board presence is bad. Chainrasps have double the attacks over 5 dogs and a better save, plus they get models back on a 1 where wolves don’t. Losing the move sucks but being fast doesn’t mean anything if you can’t take/hold an objective. In the 2018 mission set you *must* be able to leave small combat capable units in various places on the field and dogs don’t cut it without support, which they won’t be getting as your other units will be tied up. And in any case if the rasps need to reach a far obj, you can use a gravesite. I know rasps vs dogs is counterintuitive for a lot of people who’ve been dog fans for a long time, but as units like spite revenants, liberators, and even namarti thralls become objective sitters nowadays, dogs just can’t cut it.

 

I've been thinking about Rasps but I just won a game on Thurs (Starstrike) by being able to establish a line w Dogs ahead of the objectives.  Call it 32" up from my edge.  I couldn't have been able to do that with Rasps.  I did fall them back ASAP, but they took their punches.  Blood Knights are my heavy hitters.

I'm mostly interested in your thoughts on screening/protecting units at a high competitive level.  You mentioned Dragons but I imagine the same holds true for Blood Knights.  I lose games where I give up charges to the Knights.  I think this is because I'm not screening them optimally but maybe I'm wrong?

  

[Honk]

9 hours ago, Deadkitten said:

  I lose games where I give up charges to the Knights.  I think this is because I'm not screening them optimally but maybe I'm wrong?

There’s only one classic rule to distinguish good screening from bad screening...

are you able to deliver your heavy hitters into the units you want to?

if they get tangled up in skirmishers...bad screening (good from your opponent)

if they can’t reach their targets because your stuff standing in their way... bad screening 

if they get charged by your opponent... no screening (and bad positioning)

 

A lot can go wrong and rolls can mess you up too.

That’s why I really like the wolves for screening. In a pack of 10, you have Great Board Control. They have good speed to stretch out and are sturdy enough to take a beating without getting in too much trouble (5+\6++, 2hp =late battleshock)  and can even nibble back a bit.

If you still struggle, because now all the puppies are standing in the way... take neffi, she‘ll let you fly over your enemy or in your opponents combat phase, take casualties from the middle of your puppies to remove one half of them AFTER the battleshock. Then suddenly for your turn the once engaged block of enemies is free to get punched in the face.... use the split unit rule to open the gates for a charge

Edited August 12, 2018 by Honk
***** high Star content removal XD

[ianob]

14 hours ago, Deadkitten said:

I've been thinking about Rasps but I just won a game on Thurs (Starstrike) by being able to establish a line w Dogs ahead of the objectives.  Call it 32" up from my edge.  I couldn't have been able to do that with Rasps.  I did fall them back ASAP, but they took their punches.  Blood Knights are my heavy hitters.

I'm mostly interested in your thoughts on screening/protecting units at a high competitive level.  You mentioned Dragons but I imagine the same holds true for Blood Knights.  I lose games where I give up charges to the Knights.  I think this is because I'm not screening them optimally but maybe I'm wrong?

  

Like I said above - Dogs are definitely not *wrong* but in a low body count list like Court of Nulahmia the Chainrasps are just optimal because of the attacks, wounds and bodies. Speed is less relevant than those things when the rest of your army is Dragons (maybe counterintuitively) - you don’t need the rasps to keep up, you need them to be independent and keep you in the game whilst the dragons kill stuff.

As to general screening, ill just echo what @Honk said above and quantify it further with the fact that 30 rasps or 20 dogs is not going to screen your army in every case. It simply isn’t enough stuff. We have a podcast episode that goes into screening in depth that is worth a listen for more general advice.

[Lightbox]

I always have difficulty screening. Especially against flying units or enemy who move and charge around my small screening dogs. If it just practice to find positioning? Or do you have to accept that you need to keep away from fast enemy units and just accept that flyers aren't gonna care about your screeners? Or is there like a positioning sweetspot e.g. 6" behind screeners so no one can get in between and it's hard for them to charge around?

[Honk]

9 hours ago, Lightbox said:

Or is there like a positioning sweetspot

Well, there are sweetspots and things to consider, but that is just too much to consider to have just one cool checklist.

opponents movement is just too versatile to shut down completely especially with a possible double turn.

for a simple denial of flyover you can just position your elite 2-3“ behind the screen and the enemies unit will have to cross the screen and elite. 12“ on a charge move flys them everywhere of course...

[ianob]

On 8/13/2018 at 8:41 AM, Lightbox said:

I always have difficulty screening. Especially against flying units or enemy who move and charge around my small screening dogs. If it just practice to find positioning? Or do you have to accept that you need to keep away from fast enemy units and just accept that flyers aren't gonna care about your screeners? Or is there like a positioning sweetspot e.g. 6" behind screeners so no one can get in between and it's hard for them to charge around?

You can't screen against fast flyers with just 15-20 dogs. That's the problem with these "not many units" armies - there's only so much that you can do. You can mitigate a lot of charges but not stop them. Things like Eels will get you every time (and they only need one model in range to do the mortals for the whole unit)

The minimum that you need to effectively, completely screen out not only chargers but also flyers' bases is about 60-80 models. Less than that and don't feel bad if someone flies over your screen  This is why going first is so important for monster lists.

Edited August 14, 2018 by ianob

[Lightbox]

24 minutes ago, ianob said:

You can't screen against fast flyers with just 15-20 dogs. That's the problem with these "not many units" armies - there's only so much that you can do. You can mitigate a lot of charges but not stop them. Things like Eels will get you every time (and they only need one model in range to do the mortals for the whole unit)

The minimum that you need to effectively, completely screen out not only chargers but also flyers' bases is about 60-80 models. Less than that and don't feel bad if someone flies over your screen  This is why going first is so important for monster lists.

That's fair. I never find myself in range for turn 1 charges generally and with how far things like eels and bloodcrushers etc can move I expect going second to be more advantageous? Or is it actually that flying full forward (with movement buff from palanquin) lands you in turn 1 charge range so you can smash units on your terms and stop them moving onto objectives?

[Honk]

2 hours ago, Lightbox said:

Or is it actually that flying full forward 

Depends also on the terrain and the scenario set-up...

your VLoZD with pinions moves 14“+5“ befor charging ~7“ that brings him into turn 1 charge distance. If that is tactical sound movement is decided by the resulting countercharge XD and the melee outcome. And maybe a buffed up sacrificial lamb is exactly what you need, to tie your opponent down and secure objectives with your footslogging army.

Can’t really compete against turn 2 run&charge stupidity from the fishmongers.

If you really struggle with overflight rights violations...2x60 zombies in Starformation with corpsecart is a stiff middle finger against all types of deepstrike (stormfiends). Position your countercharge inside, open up with split unit cohesion rule and let the Soundsystem blast „the trooper“ from Maiden

 

[Saiken]

Is there actually a consensus on what is a staple to try and play a LoB - Bravery Bomb type of list ?
I like the idea a lot, and I might want to try to build a quick list to try it out

[ianob]

5 hours ago, Lightbox said:

That's fair. I never find myself in range for turn 1 charges generally and with how far things like eels and bloodcrushers etc can move I expect going second to be more advantageous? Or is it actually that flying full forward (with movement buff from palanquin) lands you in turn 1 charge range so you can smash units on your terms and stop them moving onto objectives?

The answer to this would be “evaluate the mission and your opponent and what his army does and what your army does and formulate a plan to win the game”, ie.... there is no correct generic answer  Experience and knowledge will inform this decision but *generally* this list is looking to get the first charge in, smash stuff up, and defend itself from retribution via Nef+artifacts and debuffs. If the opponent isn’t capable of reaching you T1 you’ll go second, if they are you’ll want to smash them first. Generally. 

Edited August 14, 2018 by ianob

[ianob]

14 minutes ago, Saiken said:

Is there actually a consensus on what is a staple to try and play a LoB - Bravery Bomb type of list ?
I like the idea a lot, and I might want to try to build a quick list to try it out

It doesn’t work, don’t bother. It’s a nice idea but there is not enough support for it. Unless you just want to play it for the lols in which case go ahead, but it isn’t competitive.