AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[Dingar]

23 minutes ago, Malakree said:

@Dingar the max unit ironfist is mandatory in both mega battalions.

womp. I guess shift out a brute group for the Iron Fist! booo lol

im gud at dis, boss

[Malakree]

@Andrew G If you give up priority on turn 1 then the whole strategy falls apart. Your opponent will be across and tanked up on objectives already thus defeating the purpose of the tactic.

The idea is to tag in your opponents screen and ring them with a wall of ardboys so that your opponent spends their turn 1 getting through the ardboys rather than getting board position. If you do it correctly you can actually pin them in such a way as to make it hard for them to fully engage.

You then position for your turn 2 to engage favourably with the enemy screen dead and you holding the objectives.

[Andrew G]

@Malakree Ahhh, ok.  I already outlined in the first paragraph of the last post why I don't think it's a good trade,  but at least I can follow your logic now.
If you're going to pursue that strategy I think you would be much better served by a 'ardfist w/ cogs list. Basically do exactly what you're planning on doing now, but going into T2 ( or T3 if by some miracle you 'ardboyz survive T1) you can just rinse and repeat with another 30 'ardboyz teleported in front of the opponent. 

[Rock Lobster]

31 minutes ago, Malakree said:

@Andrew G If you give up priority on turn 1 then the whole strategy falls apart. Your opponent will be across and tanked up on objectives already thus defeating the purpose of the tactic.

The idea is to tag in your opponents screen and ring them with a wall of ardboys so that your opponent spends their turn 1 getting through the ardboys rather than getting board position. If you do it correctly you can actually pin them in such a way as to make it hard for them to fully engage.

You then position for your turn 2 to engage favourably with the enemy screen dead and you holding the objectives.

I agree with this as one of the risks, my earlier post on the sequence of events covers when is a good time to go first and go 2nd. It is certainly matchup dependant and likely scenario dependant.

in some situations you can be sure an opponent will either stay in place to shoot you, or if they move out it is a bad day for them. 

Some skaven builds this can be true for, if the objectives are in the center, and the enemy has only 3 blocks of clan rats and no chaff.  That is a golden opportunity to destroy those 3 blocks with your whole army in a turn and you can even follow with your pin strategy next turn if you double turn or go for the kill. If the enemy has lots of chaff you should go first or it will fan out and deny space for bottling them in.

[Malakree]

@Andrew G @Rock Lobster some of the key parts are killing off your opponents chaff screen, forcing the shooting to go into your ardboys and giving you time to get the rest of your army in position.

You use the first turn to stop any deepstrike shenanigans etc and pin your opponent while you move up. Most armies aren't going to entirely wipe put 30 ardboys in 1 round of combat with the bloodtoofs buff putting them at bravery 10, so immune to things like screams and mindrazor. This means if they double you then you should at least have some of their key pieces/units locked down and unable to advance.

Then your turn 2 your ardboys will be mostly dead and you still control the objectives, now however you are in a far better position to engage with the rest of your army AND your opponents chaff has been demolished. You then go with the rest of your army AND waaagh! Bomb knowing that you're not getting stuck on the 20 grots etc.

It's basically attempting to remove the things which really ****** with ironjawz. Screens, spread out armies and failed charges.

Edited June 18, 2019 by Malakree

[Gothmaug]

So I’ve heard the gitmob was dropped from the book, can anyone confirm? I have found their siege weaponry to be useful allies against certain opponents, but i’m Disappointed to find out that all my custom conversions will no longer be allowed as allies.

Time to look into the ironweld arsenal mercenaries I guess. With all the 40K Ork stuff out there, I could see some cool ork/grot manned cannon and deffkopter conversions ((with some kharadron bits) could look really cool and add a bit of ranged punch to my ironjawz.

 

[Rock Lobster]

17 minutes ago, Gothmaug said:

So I’ve heard the gitmob was dropped from the book, can anyone confirm? I have found their siege weaponry to be useful allies against certain opponents, but i’m Disappointed to find out that all my custom conversions will no longer be allowed as allies.

Time to look into the ironweld arsenal mercenaries I guess. With all the 40K Ork stuff out there, I could see some cool ork/grot manned cannon and deffkopter conversions ((with some kharadron bits) could look really cool and add a bit of ranged punch to my ironjawz.

 

I don’t think anyone is going to have a problem with that if it’s a cool conversion. I think counts as conversions are really great and characterful as long as it looks like what it should be, a multibarrelled cannon type arrangement covered in grots.

[Rock Lobster]

19 minutes ago, Gothmaug said:

So I’ve heard the gitmob was dropped from the book, can anyone confirm? I have found their siege weaponry to be useful allies against certain opponents, but i’m Disappointed to find out that all my custom conversions will no longer be allowed as allies.

Time to look into the ironweld arsenal mercenaries I guess. With all the 40K Ork stuff out there, I could see some cool ork/grot manned cannon and deffkopter conversions ((with some kharadron bits) could look really cool and add a bit of ranged punch to my ironjawz.

 

And yes, sadly rumour is that the gitmob are gone, it’s a shame, some highly amusing and iconic items like the snotling pump wagon and doom diver.

 

[Dimatrix]

55 minutes ago, Rock Lobster said:

And yes, sadly rumour is that the gitmob are gone, it’s a shame, some highly amusing and iconic items like the snotling pump wagon and doom diver.

 

It’s confirmed gitmob is now in the legacy army section. They are still usable but they lost ally status with every army so you have to be Grand Alliance destruction to take them. Green skins however still have support

[Rock Lobster]

4 hours ago, Malakree said:

@Andrew G @Rock Lobster some of the key parts are killing off your opponents chaff screen, forcing the shooting to go into your ardboys and giving you time to get the rest of your army in position.

You use the first turn to stop any deepstrike shenanigans etc and pin your opponent while you move up. Most armies aren't going to entirely wipe put 30 ardboys in 1 round of combat with the bloodtoofs buff putting them at bravery 10, so immune to things like screams and mindrazor. This means if they double you then you should at least have some of their key pieces/units locked down and unable to advance.

Then your turn 2 your ardboys will be mostly dead and you still control the objectives, now however you are in a far better position to engage with the rest of your army AND your opponents chaff has been demolished. You then go with the rest of your army AND waaagh! Bomb knowing that you're not getting stuck on the 20 grots etc.

It's basically attempting to remove the things which really ****** with ironjawz. Screens, spread out armies and failed charges.

The bravery 10 is nice as a start, but if you take 22 wounds that will drop to 9 and you are going to be taking double that probably down to 8 from the big hitters. So 22 wounds is a big turning point when you would be taking battleshock on bravery 9 with 11 casualties. If you roll a 6 that is potentially another 8 casualties putting you down to 11men, anything more on top of that and it get more dire. The risk with going first is they get to hit you back with whatever you charged into and kill you and get free their turn 1, or in their turn they can potentially wipe you out, meaning in their turn if they double turn they get to strike all of the stuff capturing objectives in the midfield. That doesn't mean I dont think it is a valid strategy, I actually really like but we might want to consider some additional potential resilience for the unit to stick around if you plan to go first.

What about going ironsunz rather than bloodtoofs if you are not as into the waagh or just need to be a little more careful about positioning if doing it since you want the6 units . On a 2+ first turn you get -1 to hit the the whole of the first battle round, that is -1 to hit on their attacks back to your ardboyz and on their turn too - a good tool if going first. As an example, lets take 40 plague monks buffed to 4 attacks each rerolling hits (I know they can be more nasty) . 40 against blood toofs will kick about 40 wounds after armour saves and everything with that many attacks. That will leave about 10 ardboyz remaining to doomed to fail battleshock off even with the +2 without inspiring presence (and you will always need inspiring presence).

If you get the -1 to hit the math changes as follows, those same plague monks do 29 - 31 wounds against your ardboys. If you have a few shields in there or even do the reroll 1s for armor save cp burn you can be pretty safe in losing 11-13 guys rather than 20. Its a big difference. Plus with ironsunz the megaboss becomes more tanky and a beatstick and will also be -1 to hit, so if he has good protection he might be able to get stuck in and cause havok too.

 

[DestructionFranz]

3 hours ago, Dimatrix said:

It’s confirmed gitmob is now in the legacy army section. They are still usable but they lost ally status with every army so you have to be Grand Alliance destruction to take them. Green skins however still have support

I used the Gitmob Grots Archers like battleline in my mixed Destruction army. They are decisive in control objectives but first of all in destroying enemies with their incredibly lethal bows. (When they are buffed by their Shaman).

Said that I think is normal that 3 kind of Grots are to many to support (Moonclans, Gitmob and Gutbusters), 

 

[broche]

Really excited by the new change. I'll likely start playing an updated version of my LVO ironsunz. With the point drop i'm able to fit an extra 10 arboys/3 pig. I'm thinking running something like this:

Maw Krusha    420    daubing of mork
warchanter    80    Aetherquartz brooch
Weirnob Shaman    120    Golden tooth
fungoid    90    
        
5 brutes    170    
5 brutes    170    
10 ardboys    140    
10 ardboys    140    
10 ardboys/ 3 Gore gruntas    140    
3 Gore gruntas    140    
3 Gore gruntas    140    
        
Ironfist    160    
ironsunz    80    
 

I'm also considering seriously Bloodtooth now, as i really like the count for 2 units bonus, specially for foot boss. Allow for Waaagh threath on 2 area of the board. 

[broche]

52 minutes ago, Rock Lobster said:

On a 2+ first turn you get -1 to hit the the whole of the first battle round

did they buff ironsuzn to 2+ instead of 3+? ok that's huge

[Rock Lobster]

Yes Indeed! Ironsunz way better. 2+ for the -1 to hit and your megaboss gets D3 of the +1 wound and attack. Solid pick now.

[Malakree]

30 minutes ago, Rock Lobster said:

Yes Indeed! Ironsunz way better. 2+ for the -1 to hit and your megaboss gets D3 of the +1 wound and attack. Solid pick now.

Just fyi the bravery 10 with bloodtoofs is without the extra bonuses for large units. It's +2 for bloodtoofs and +2 for the banner, point there is that attacks which specifically target bravery are basically useless against them. For battleshock you would start bravery 12.

Also on the plaguemonk thing, one of those extra attacks is gained by them charging which you've denied so it's only 3 each against a 4+ rr1s with a 6++ after save. Oh and you need to kill 6 before I even have the potential to battle shock. Even then you get the 6+ icon roll to not flee.

I think you're massively underestimating just how tanky 30 ardboys is. I had a unit of fully buffed wych aelves slam into them at last year's BOBO (Just after 2018 dropped) and still left ~10 standing.

Realistically even a double activation terrorgheist is still going to leave a couple locked in combat pinning stuff with an IP. 

[PlasticCraic]

1 hour ago, DestructionFranz said:

I used the Gitmob Grots Archers like battleline in my mixed Destruction army. They are decisive in control objectives but first of all in destroying enemies with their incredibly lethal bows. (When they are buffed by their Shaman).

Said that I think is normal that 3 kind of Grots are to many to support (Moonclans, Gitmob and Gutbusters), 

 

Eh, I don't know how much support Gutbusters Grots needed (or get).  It's one kit with one warscroll, and since printing it in the GA Destruction book, they haven't exactly poured a lot of energy and resources into them...if you called them soemthing other than Grots, I don't think we'd even be having this conversation. 

They're just a  single unit in an army, they're not a range in their own right that needs to be supported.

[Scurvydog]

57 minutes ago, broche said:

Im also considering seriously Bloodtooth now, as i really like the count for 2 units bonus, specially for foot boss. Allow for Waaagh threath on 2 area of the board. 

The count for 2 is only for the main mawkrusha boss. Still decent though. 

[svnvaldez]

2 hours ago, broche said:

Really excited by the new change. I'll likely start playing an updated version of my LVO ironsunz. With the point drop i'm able to fit an extra 10 arboys/3 pig. I'm thinking running something like this:

 Maw Krusha    420    daubing of mork
warchanter    80    Aetherquartz brooch
Weirnob Shaman    120    Golden tooth
fungoid    90    
        
5 brutes    170    
5 brutes    170    
10 ardboys    140    
10 ardboys    140    
10 ardboys/ 3 Gore gruntas    140    
3 Gore gruntas    140    
3 Gore gruntas    140    
        
Ironfist    160    
ironsunz    80    

I'm thinking the exact same list (drop fungoid for 1 drop) but with the 10x3 combined to 30x1. Like others have said above you can hand the 30 T1. I think it cast on an 8 ( 6 with +2 from the weirnob). Then the army gets +1 to charge, +2 from the drum, +d6 from Ironfist. 

Result is a nice wall deep in the board and leave a tail for IP

Edited June 18, 2019 by svnvaldez

[Donut Assassin]

50 minutes ago, svnvaldez said:

I'm thinking the exact same list (drop fungoid for 1 drop) but with the 10x3 combined to 30x1. Like others have said above you can hand the 30 T1. I think it cast on an 8 ( 6 with +2 from the weirnob). Then the army gets +1 to charge, +2 from the drum, +d6 from Ironfist. 

Result is a nice wall deep in the board and leave a tail for IP

I have also been looking at building a 1 drop list. But playing around with different size units to give the best odds of successful charges on t1. So another weird nob shaman with Boat endless spell and probably 2x20 are boys (30 if they can fit) so two chances to get a single unit or both units up the board. 6-12 gore gruntas for a cp hero phase move 9”+ d6” + 9” move, +2 inches of bonus charge (Bloodtoofs), the maw crusha also doing the same to get up and charge t1. So many ways to assemble the army with so few different units. 

[Rock Lobster]

3 hours ago, Malakree said:

Just fyi the bravery 10 with bloodtoofs is without the extra bonuses for large units. It's +2 for bloodtoofs and +2 for the banner, point there is that attacks which specifically target bravery are basically useless against them. For battleshock you would start bravery 12.

Also on the plaguemonk thing, one of those extra attacks is gained by them charging which you've denied so it's only 3 each against a 4+ rr1s with a 6++ after save. Oh and you need to kill 6 before I even have the potential to battle shock. Even then you get the 6+ icon roll to not flee.

I think you're massively underestimating just how tanky 30 ardboys is. I had a unit of fully buffed wych aelves slam into them at last year's BOBO (Just after 2018 dropped) and still left ~10 standing.

Realistically even a double activation terrorgheist is still going to leave a couple locked in combat pinning stuff with an IP. 

I had forgotten about the banner, good shout. Still a tempting choice for that -1 to hit first battle round from ironsunz is designed for this type of strategy. Normally it will just provide a little protection for a first round of shooting, but getting to use it in both your turn for retaliation attacks and their turn for their attacks is great. It also helps out a lot if the casting roll for hand of Gork is flubbed and the ardboyz need to soak up an enemy alpha strike.

I am not underestimating their tankiness, it is why we are all looking at the 30 ardboyz, however we should also not overestimate it when you are pinning the entire strategy on them holding the enemy in place a while. AOS is a much higher damage game than it was a year ago. Ironjawz which are not even the highest DPS can cause 55 wounds after save with 3 waaghs and the 2 warchanters on 30 other ardboyz, 1 more unit of pigs on top equals a turn 1 wipe out which in turn means if they double turn they strike out and take all of the objectives. 

I think the strategy is good though. Just per earlier posts I think we need to offensively power up the arboyz to cause massive damage with first strike too and I think ironsunz could be a real potential option to reduce return damage and make it really tough to wipe them out in a turn. If it works it is game ending for the opponent.

I love the visual of a wall of iron smashing in to cripple a response, locking bodies shields and weapons to hold back the counter push and then a 2nd wave crashing in finish off the enemy.

What are you thoughts on moves if the spell fails, even with easy casts I tend to have a tendency to roll a 4 and fail and will do so in at least half of games.

 

 

[Rock Lobster]

3 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

The count for 2 is only for the main mawkrusha boss. Still decent though. 

I have no seen the rule, only heard then talked about, that is unfortunate. Makes me lean a little the iron sunz way, although lets be honest the bravery is a grade A lifesaver. Does it give +1 to charge?

[PlayerJ]

4 minutes ago, Rock Lobster said:

I have no seen the rule, only heard then talked about, that is unfortunate. Makes me lean a little the iron sunz way, although lets be honest the bravery is a grade A lifesaver. Does it give +1 to charge?

Yes, +1 to run and charge rolls

[broche]

There's is spell that seem to give everybody within (maybe wholly?) 12'' of shaman reroll to wound. Seem quite powerfull, specially with waaagh stacking. I think we will start seeing list with 2 weirnob more and more. Hand of gork is a must and this spell and power of the waaagh are both quite interesting.

[Rock Lobster]

58 minutes ago, PlayerJ said:

Yes, +1 to run and charge rolls

Its great to have a tough choice between 2 things for once. I think blood toofs is still the best, super reliable and does everything you want it to do, but Ironsunz is now an interesting choice. If they made the -1 to hit automatic I would say they are dead even, as it is, the chance of rolling a 1 leans me into bloodtoofs, +1 to charge is so useful with hand of gork.

[Rock Lobster]

7 minutes ago, broche said:

There's is spell that seem to give everybody within (maybe wholly?) 12'' of shaman reroll to wound. Seem quite powerfull, specially with waaagh stacking. I think we will start seeing list with 2 weirnob more and more. Hand of gork is a must and this spell and power of the waaagh are both quite interesting.

Its really good, 3s to wound isn't amazing. The problem is the wholly within 12". That is tricky to do with such a slow moving and squishy character. In the solid lists we have been discussing with megaboss, shaman and warchanter, megabattalion, 30 ardboyz and 4 x ardboyz or gruntas, this leaves you 160 points. This could be:

Another shaman and a 40 point endless spell or upgrade a unit to brutes

Another shaman and use the spare 40 points to upgrade the warchanter for triple shaman

Another unit and a 20 point endless spell

Upgrade some units to brutes or a CP and upgrade some to brutes

Upgrade warchanter to a 2nd shaman, take a CP, upgrade 1 unit to butes or endless spell

Take a 2nd warchanter and a CP and upgrade a unit to brutes.

Take a 2nd and 3rd warchanter.

So you have a lot of options for that last 160 points in addition to what you have in - ranging from 3 warchanters and 1 shaman to 3 shamans and no warchanters, to some combination with either CP or units. You can of course cut the 30 ardboyz to 20 to do something else with, but this feels like a mistake to me unless you are making 2 or 3 x 20 which could work if you are going a different strategy then the pin in approach.