Lets Chat: Idoneth Deepkin

[DantePQ]

1 hour ago, Drofnum said:

I've used them and had no problems so far in 3 or so games.  If you think its hard to get 9 eels into combat how are you expecting to get 20-30 Thralls in?

I don't expect all thralls to get in, that's the point, ypu don't need to get in with all thralls also you can soak up any hits that coming back at you, with eels it's do or die - if you don't clear whole unit with charge they are toasted - even against witches. 

@mmimzie thralls list do have teeth, and Thralls are not worse then witches they have -1 rend and 3+3+ , there is no scenario where witches are better sure if you start to pile in buffs - maybe. Sorry but if you think that a unit with 3+3+ and rend with 2A at worst scenario ( in most cases with 3A or 2Dmg) can't realistically kill anything you don't know what you're talking about clearly. It's another of your cool stories  - after one when you are killing 700 points worth of DoK models in turn 1 against good player.  

Also Morssar alpha strike will only work against weak players as any good player will make them eat screen and counter-charge as Deepkin doesn't have any reliable tools (or any tools to be specific) to kill screen and charge.  

 

[Drofnum]

3 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

I don't expect all thralls to get in, that's the point, ypu don't need to get in with all thralls also you can soak up any hits that coming back at you, with eels it's do or die - if you don't clear whole unit with charge they are toasted - even against witches. 

That's simply not true, I had a unit of 6 going up against 30 blood warriors and they survived both the attacks back from killing the warriors as well as the counter attack from the 10 or so left alive.  Granted I saved like 4 from the ship ward save but still.  

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Also Morssar alpha strike will only work against weak players as any good player will make them eat screen and counter-charge as Deepkin doesn't have any reliable tools (or any tools to be specific) to kill screen and charge.  

Also not true, a line of Ishlean with Morrsarr attacking over the top of them works just fine for screening a charge and still being able to kill things.  

It feels like you are just theorycrafting here against a few people who have actually played some games, theory doesnt always hold up to reality in a lot of games. Its a great place to start but it doesnt tell you everything.

[DantePQ]

Actually I played games with them and against them, and you won't be able to charge first turn anything important against good player. You will eat a screen, any alpha strike list will. You really wanna tell me that you will be able to charge turn 1 into anything important with melee unit ? Not gonna happen.  

I'm not talking about theory my friend charged 30 witches HaggNar witches with 9 Morssar(he was able to fit in like 6), 11 were left , they killed 3 Morssar (and it's 480 pts unit against 270 pts unit) he rolled 4 for Bravery so another one was done. After then even tough it was 3rd turn they were charged by Bloodwrack Shrine and it was all. 

If you played against Gore Pilgrims and survived charging into 30 blood warriors it was luck nothing else. With math even including ship nearby on average they inflict like 14-16 wounds (without any buffs for Blood Warriors - and it's Highly unlikely) so you're left with 2-3 guards (at best as I didn't account any buffs on Blood Warriors and account buffs from Shipwreck) so on a 4+ roll for Bravery another guys flee. So you're left with about 2 guards at best

[Drofnum]

3 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

If you played against Gore Pilgrims and survived charging into 30 blood warriors it was luck nothing else. With math even including ship nearby on average they inflict like 14-16 wounds (without any buffs for Blood Warriors - and it's Highly unlikely) so you're left with 2-3 guards (at best as I didn't account any buffs on Blood Warriors and account buffs from Shipwreck) so on a 4+ roll for Bravery another guys flee. So you're left with about 2 guards at best

Again you're just theorycrafting all of it.  Not all of the blood warriors are getting in range, if i charged I obviously attacked first so they werent even all alive to attack back. 

 

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Actually I played games with them and against them, and you won't be able to charge first turn anything important against good player. You will eat a screen, any alpha strike list will. You really wanna tell me that you will be able to charge turn 1 into anything important with melee unit ? Not gonna happen.  

I dont run them as an alpha strike list, i'm not trying to get into charge range turn 1.  I dislike alpha strike lists, but you've simply been arguing Thralls vs Morrsarr lists so i am speaking to that.  For the record I think both are viable, I just find your insistence that Thralls are always superior a bit strange.

6 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

I'm not talking about theory my friend charged 30 witches HaggNar witches with 9 Morssar(he was able to fit in like 6), 11 were left , they killed 3 Morssar (and it's 480 pts unit against 270 pts unit) he rolled 4 for Bravery so another one was done. After then even tough it was 3rd turn they were charged by Bloodwrack Shrine and it was all. 

Sure, unsupported I can see that happening.  Same goes for Thralls or most any other unit charged by 30 witches with buffs. And either Thralls or Morrsarr backed with buffs would have fared better if they charged the witches the witches probably die, combat army vs combat army is pretty much always about who charges who.

[DantePQ]

All Killed Blood Warriors can pile in and attack you, and then 10 left would have no problem with pileing in and attacking, they pile in after they are killed so good player will make it easy to strike back with all of them especially against big base model like eel. With BloodWarriors it doesn't matter if they are alive or not - every one of them will attack you. Look up their ability. 

And I was refering to comment that they are alpha strike unit which wasn't made by you. And they are not, in fact they are quite bad as alpha strike unit. 

I don't know for a start Morssar charged witches in turn 2 and Witches were only near General for 5++ Fanatical Faith save and with Witchbrew and Morssar cost almost twice as much. Yep but it was ID player who charged into Witches, and to be specific Morssar were also near Aspect for Bravery buff. 

I just prefer Tharlls over Morssar as they can soak up damage and be effective. Morssar against Changehost, Seraphons or Nurgle are useless as they will be blasted to pieces (or severely hurt) turn 1 usually. They have hard time against Sylvaneth and Daughters of Khaine as well. It's just my experience I play in ultra-competitive community so there are few players who play Seraphons and Changehost and match-ed up against those kind of armies Thralls are better. Possibly against different kind of builds Morssar will be better, but I still would prefer Thralls against for example Fyreslayers   

 

[Uncas]

Just to move away a bit from this morrsar vs thrall argument...

Question: if you put a hero with cloud of midnight at the front of your army, would enemy ranged have to target that hero but then not be able to actually shoot at it?

[mmimzie]

9 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

Actually I played games with them and against them, and you won't be able to charge first turn anything important against good player. You will eat a screen, any alpha strike list will. You really wanna tell me that you will be able to charge turn 1 into anything important with melee unit ? Not gonna happen.  

 

Why is this same screen not in the way of your thralls??? Do thralls ignore screens??? No, likely if your opponent has a screen and cares enough.... you'd still have to deal with that screen. And if your huddle your opponent behind a screen for thier first time when otherwise they might want to do somethign else that is power you hold over them. 

 

As far as getting model into combat.... what world of physics do you live in??  if you can get 10 or 11 32mm models into combat from your 30 man block.... i can get 9 morrsar into combat as depected in the images below.  Sorry for using blank 32s <.< didn't want to take my stuff out the car. 

Spoiler

 

 

That's 11 32s in range to attack (except one that i nudge out of the way by mistake before snapping the picture)  and 9 cav bases in range (those are my 'dire wolves'). The target enemy unit is ranked up with an 8 man front.  

As for thralls vs witches... what... in that same image above you'd end up with like 20+ "witches" in range to melee...  so it's 20+ witches vs like 11 thralls...  20 witches will do considerable more damage, and that's assuming witches were the ones being charged... if witches did the charge you wouldn't struggle to get 30 witches into melee range against a squad of 30 thralls.  Assuming neither side has buffs.. the witches would smoke that units of thralls... 

Then you say the morrsar would be blasted off the table. Thralls are only slightly more durable than against mortal wounds than morrsar are, and our best mortal wound defense is going to come from -1 to hit and trying to unbind (potentialy at +1 enclave dependent), and not so much is thralls vs morrsar where both die pretty hard to mortals compared to alot of units out there.  For instance witches are  about double the mortal wound durability of both morrsarr and thralls.  (thralls 30/360 .0833, vs morrsarrs 12/160 .075, witches (with 5++  unit of just and no discount! 10*(5++)/100pts .15). If you are really mortal wound nervous you either need to do another army or go in heavy on allies like eternal guard.  Thralls are <.< insignificantly more durable to mortal wounds. Another mortal wound protection unit would be an archmage with better unbinds and a spell that can reduce in coming mortal wounds could be a friend.  

Anywho you can prefer either or that's all you. The only thing i have is i honestly can't see how you specificly want to run thralls.  I don't get your bromdar deal when you say morrsar alpha strike will be stuck on a screen <.<.. bromdar is annihilated by screen.... and bromdar can be powerfully countered with moderate board control. You could deploy your bromdar just on the table against armies like nurgle and change host who can quickly rest board control over the table stopping your bromdar alpha.... but then your just playing a signigantly worse morrphan???

So i guess it's like this; i've explained alot why i think morrsarr as good, and thralls not so much. In the past i've even said i think regen thralls could be good. What i don't see is how your bromdar thralls works? What match ups and situations do you see them doing better in???  How would that list play on x mission vs y opponent??? 

Because, i can see regenating (morphan) thralls as they can get really cost effective and i can get morrsarr guard focus with lots of buffs and lots of -1 to hit spells (ionrach/nautilar/fuethan~eh/ dhom-hain) that's how i see ID's competitive life being invested in one of those two camps. 

[Kaedus]

I'm really confused by the counterintuitive nature of Royal Council. It wants you to have a Soulscryer next to your Tidecaster and King to do its thing. It therefore ideally wants you to drop them as a 1 drop turn one. Surely though it's always objectively better to deploy the Soulscryer using his ability with another unit. And even his other ability wants you to be close to enemy units to affect the charges. Royal Council seems to want you to use him in a completely different way to what his warscroll describes. Seems like a waste, surely? 

[mmimzie]

22 minutes ago, Uncas said:

Just to move away a bit from this morrsar vs thrall argument...

Question: if you put a hero with cloud of midnight at the front of your army, would enemy ranged have to target that hero but then not be able to actually shoot at it?

yeah you can only target the nearist ID unit. however the cloud doesn't let you target said unit. So you just can't target anything. 

If forgotten nightmare said "can shoot the closest targetable unit" than  you would still be able to shoot as it would let you just shoot the next targetable unit. 

[Uncas]

@mmimzie 

Ouch! That probably needs to be FAQed if that is the case. 

[mmimzie]

7 minutes ago, Kaedus said:

I'm really confused by the counterintuitive nature of Royal Council. It wants you to have a Soulscryer next to your Tidecaster and King to do its thing. It therefore ideally wants you to drop them as a 1 drop turn one. Surely though it's always objectively better to deploy the Soulscryer using his ability with another unit. And even his other ability wants you to be close to enemy units to affect the charges. Royal Council seems to want you to use him in a completely different way to what his warscroll describes. Seems like a waste, surely? 

On the surface yes, but in actuality it makes abit of sense.

So for 1 thing the soul scryer only lets you bring 2 other units with him. The royal court command ability affects 3 units.

The soul scryer ability doesn't reduce the number of drops the soul scryer and the join him all deploy seperately (or each individual units counts as seperate drop). This lets you deploy a batttalion like namarti corp and send some of those units with the scryer. Where as the Royal Court lets you turn 3 drops into 1 drop. 

The royal court gives you an artifact

The soul scryers ability is used in the charge phase and he moves 6" so he can still move and use his ability with an effective 30" range +d6 if you run him which likely you should.

The soul scryer starting on the table can help in the ritual at the start of the game. Which is big becuase he's +2 to your ritual. 

Lastly, and i guess it bookend my thoughts because it's similar to my first though.  It lets you turn 1 charge with 3 units of eels/kings/aspects/turtles as you give them a 3" movement booster which allows those units to move anywhere from 17-13" in a turn.  and another +3" from the charge bonus from his ability. Which gives a unit of eels an  average threat range of 20" +7(2d6 rerollable)". Royal court and namarti core are the only battalions i'd even consider honestly.    This first turn charging unit can be buffed thanks to starting on the table, and thus being there during the hero phase, and don't get pushed further back by units screening the edges of the table. 

 

1 minute ago, Uncas said:

@mmimzie 

Ouch! That probably needs to be FAQed if that is the case. 

A balewind vortex can keep you from meleeing a character all game, and creats a 12" circle of impassable terrain <.<.... stoping units from shooting for 1 single phase is small potatoes when compared to the crazy stuff you can do in this game. 

[DantePQ]

@mmimzie I am not using my Thralls as alpha strike like you claim that you use Morssar that's main difference.  You claim to clear 700 pts worth of models with Morssar alpha strike. 

Also you still doesn't understand that you can lose like 16 wounds of Thralls and still have highly  effective unit with reliable damage output which is easier to shield from bravery as it's easier to get them in range of inspiring presence/bravery buffs. If you lose 4 Morssar you're losing half your damage output (or majority of it when taking 6 man strong unit into consideration). 

Also if you make any kind of alpha strike charge/move you probably lose any bravery bonus so they are suspect with that. 

You said that unit with at worst case scenario 3+3+ rend-1 can't kill. 

"Thralls just can't realisticly kill anything" 

which is just baloney. Thralls are one of the best melee infantry in the game, as they are both huge against mordes and against monsters. Sure but in your world they can't kill anything  , but it's the same world when you can clear 700 points with alpha strike charge. 

-1 to hit don't mean a thing against mortal wounds as majority of it comes from magic, +1 to unbid won't mean a thing against such armies as well. And yes Thralls can possibly take 2D6 mortal wounds or 3xD3, for Morssar it's quite a risk. Also with low bravery Morssar are suspect to any bravery based abilities/spells (like Death or Sylvaneth abilities). 

[Uncas]

Not small potatoes really. Can shut down an alpha strike shooting army if you deploy creatively. Balewind is ridiculous, agreed there, but that doesn’t change the fact that this could be incredibly useful against certain lists.

[mmimzie]

24 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

 I am not using my Thralls as alpha strike like you claim that you use Morssar that's main difference.  You claim to clear 700 pts worth of models with Morssar alpha strike. 

which..... is why i asked how you intend to run your bromdar thrall thing.... You don't know things... it's how you figure them out...  So i mean again... it'd be nice if you  would enlighten me... as i asked on how you'd expect your list to work.  Maybe i could see the thrall light... but again as i see it now i don't see how thralls work out side of regen. 

It wasn't 700 it was 600+ as a number i through out because you could potentialy alpha strike with 2 units of 9 morrsarr if you wanted to. A game where i did similar though was one where i charged up with a 9 man ishlaen/ 9 morrsarr/ and a king and in the first turn i popped a block of witches + hag, got the morrsarr coutner charged and i zapped them pretty bad. All told was 60 dead witches and a hag at the end of the battle round to my 6 dead morrsarr and 1 dead ishlaen.  It all retreated the ishlaen got in the way of the bulk of his army while the king and remaining morrsarr went for an objective, and came back turn 3 to put some more work in with another morrsarr guard unit???  IF you go first as the witch army you risk not spreading to objectives. Not spreading to objectives with the ishlaen just let you get boxed up. If you do spread it's divide and conquer. 

37 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

Also if you make any kind of alpha strike charge/move you probably lose any bravery bonus so they are suspect with that. 

liandra's if you aren't bring an aspect means you don't really need bravery?? only place it sucks is against dauther or death mortal wound mechanics... though death mortal wound mechanics aren't that powerful. 

 

 

39 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

which is just baloney. Thralls are one of the best melee infantry in the game, as they are both huge against mordes and against monsters. Sure but in your world they can't kill anything  , but it's the same world when you can clear 700 points with alpha strike charge. 

I just don't see it sorry. having messed around with my buddies vulkite you don't really get all the bodies in, but the vulkites don't care because they are durable and if they really really want to can charge for some free mortal wound action.  Thralls while they have really great attacks... they'd be the same exact unit... heck they might even better if they have 1 less attack each but where on 25mm. Which is to say they do about half the damage or less than they look like they do on paper.  Have you tried playing them like  at all?? I know everything you need for the list is out and availible. Plus you could probably proxy with your buddies.  To me looking at them thier damage is really low due to 32mm halfing thier damage, and with out regenation they lack dramaticly in the durability department when compared to every other battle line. 

Again if you'd stop trying to tell me why morrsarr are bad and tell me how you think you'd want to use thralls to good effect it would be a more constructive conversation. I think <.<. 
 

 

[TheDayman]

Am I the only one that thinks this has went from 'Lets chat: Idoneth deepkin' to 'What's the fastest way to lose your friends?' with all this talk about alpha strikes and attempts at making game-breaking army lists? I just want to have a fun time talking about how cool the fish aelves are and see people take what they want to, rather than take stuff because that's what the meta is. Stuff like that really puts me off competitive play  

[Kugane]

1 hour ago, mmimzie said:

Why is this same screen not in the way of your thralls??? Do thralls ignore screens??? No, likely if your opponent has a screen and cares enough.... you'd still have to deal with that screen. And if your huddle your opponent behind a screen for thier first time when otherwise they might want to do somethign else that is power you hold over them. 

 

As far as getting model into combat.... what world of physics do you live in??  if you can get 10 or 11 32mm models into combat from your 30 man block.... i can get 9 morrsar into combat as depected in the images below.  Sorry for using blank 32s <.< didn't want to take my stuff out the car. 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

That's 11 32s in range to attack (except one that i nudge out of the way by mistake before snapping the picture)  and 9 cav bases in range (those are my 'dire wolves'). The target enemy unit is ranked up with an 8 man front.  

As for thralls vs witches... what... in that same image above you'd end up with like 20+ "witches" in range to melee...  so it's 20+ witches vs like 11 thralls...  20 witches will do considerable more damage, and that's assuming witches were the ones being charged... if witches did the charge you wouldn't struggle to get 30 witches into melee range against a squad of 30 thralls.  Assuming neither side has buffs.. the witches would smoke that units of thralls... 

Then you say the morrsar would be blasted off the table. Thralls are only slightly more durable than against mortal wounds than morrsar are, and our best mortal wound defense is going to come from -1 to hit and trying to unbind (potentialy at +1 enclave dependent), and not so much is thralls vs morrsar where both die pretty hard to mortals compared to alot of units out there.  For instance witches are  about double the mortal wound durability of both morrsarr and thralls.  (thralls 30/360 .0833, vs morrsarrs 12/160 .075, witches (with 5++  unit of just and no discount! 10*(5++)/100pts .15). If you are really mortal wound nervous you either need to do another army or go in heavy on allies like eternal guard.  Thralls are <.< insignificantly more durable to mortal wounds. Another mortal wound protection unit would be an archmage with better unbinds and a spell that can reduce in coming mortal wounds could be a friend.  

Anywho you can prefer either or that's all you. The only thing i have is i honestly can't see how you specificly want to run thralls.  I don't get your bromdar deal when you say morrsar alpha strike will be stuck on a screen <.<.. bromdar is annihilated by screen.... and bromdar can be powerfully countered with moderate board control. You could deploy your bromdar just on the table against armies like nurgle and change host who can quickly rest board control over the table stopping your bromdar alpha.... but then your just playing a signigantly worse morrphan???

So i guess it's like this; i've explained alot why i think morrsarr as good, and thralls not so much. In the past i've even said i think regen thralls could be good. What i don't see is how your bromdar thralls works? What match ups and situations do you see them doing better in???  How would that list play on x mission vs y opponent??? 

Because, i can see regenating (morphan) thralls as they can get really cost effective and i can get morrsarr guard focus with lots of buffs and lots of -1 to hit spells (ionrach/nautilar/fuethan~eh/ dhom-hain) that's how i see ID's competitive life being invested in one of those two camps. 

That archmage advice is absolutely amazing. Thanks for sharing that!  

[Bremy]

I played my first game tonight and I loved the thralls backed up with a Soulrender and Mor'phann enclave. Regen the Thralls back was so good. The Eidolon is obviously awesome and Lotann is also great.Can't wait to try and ambush with Soulscryer and 2 units of Reavers which I'm trying in the next game and also the Morsarr guard.

[Kugane]

31 minutes ago, Bremy said:

I played my first game tonight and I loved the thralls backed up with a Soulrender and Mor'phann enclave. Regen the Thralls back was so good. The Eidolon is obviously awesome and Lotann is also great.Can't wait to try and ambush with Soulscryer and 2 units of Reavers which I'm trying in the next game and also the Morsarr guard.

how many reavers per unit are you planning to bring?

[mmimzie]

1 hour ago, Bremy said:

I played my first game tonight and I loved the thralls backed up with a Soulrender and Mor'phann enclave. Regen the Thralls back was so good. The Eidolon is obviously awesome and Lotann is also great.Can't wait to try and ambush with Soulscryer and 2 units of Reavers which I'm trying in the next game and also the Morsarr guard.

what did you play against???? 

[MacDuff]

Since all the minis aren't out yet, I'm curious what you guys are using as proxies?

[mmimzie]

1 hour ago, MacDuff said:

Since all the minis aren't out yet, I'm curious what you guys are using as proxies?

Stuff with the right size zombies. It definitly saps the fun out pretty hard not having awesome fish swimming accross the table. 

 

For instance I used my craftworld eldar for one game. < < worked alright because the units were doing what they normally do... just was weird they were fighti ng daughters of khaine and not space marine. Then for one I used the dire dogs I have a photo of above under a spoil tag lol. 

 

Probably why I haven't played many proxies recently is I'd kind of rather just have the real things in my hand. 

[Tizianolol]

I don't know if alpha strike reavers work. When you deploy them you have to be 9" from enemy, if you play like 20 of them only one line of them can use 9" arrow , the rest of the unit is not in range. The question is: can a part of the unit use 9" arrow and the rest of the unit use 18" arrow?

[Kugane]

@mmimzie thanks for the archmage idea!

o

[David Griffin]

4 hours ago, Tizianolol said:

I don't know if alpha strike reavers work. When you deploy them you have to be 9" from enemy, if you play like 20 of them only one line of them can use 9" arrow , the rest of the unit is not in range. The question is: can a part of the unit use 9" arrow and the rest of the unit use 18" arrow?

So the Soulscyer's ability specifies that the units have to be "more than 9 from enemy models". Since the Reavers' Stormfire is a 9" range, they will not be able to use this shooting style on the turn they come in.

[mmimzie]

5 hours ago, Kugane said:

@mmimzie thanks for the archmage idea!

o

That looks awesome!!! Please tell me how!!! Haha.

 

I was thinking of using the archmage on horse model, but chopping the horse in half to give it a eel back half.