Oldschool Orcs/Orruks viable?

[CaptainNippon]

After a rather long wargaming hiatus, I'm ready to dive right into AoS, so I'm planning on remobilizing my old Greeenskins from WHFB. 

However, since I have no experience with AoS at all, I'd like to ask the community whether such an oldschool army would be able to hold their ground against the newer factions in AoS without supplementing them with Ironjaws (the models are sadly not to my taste).

So how would a force consisting of the following fare on the battlefield? 

- Grimgork 

- 15 Black Orcs 

- 5 Boar Boys 

- Stone lobba 

- Orc Shaman

- 10 Orc Arrer Boyz

- a Giant 

 

Any comments and advice on playing Orruks is highly appreciated.

Thanks in advance! 

 

 

[someone2040]

So my personal thoughts on Greenskinz themselves (regular Orruks), is no, they can't really compete. The main reason for this is that they don't really have anything that can put out a lot of high rend/mortal wound damage, and the only thing they're remotely good at is putting out a lot of attacks (Larger units of Orruks, command ability on the Warbosses).

Some older factions can keep up with the newer ones, but Greenskinz I don't think is really one of them.

To be clear though, this is talking about top tier army lists. I think Greenskinz or mixed Orruk and Grot armies certainly have their place in the middle/lower pack, but they don't have a huge toolbox of things that work for them.

 

As for your list. Are you using the original Compendium scrolls? All the units I guess have new scrolls now, so Grimgor doesn't exist anymore (You just use the regular Orruk Warboss warscroll). Additionally in matched play you need to take Ardboyz in multiples of 10. 

Additionally for Matched Play you need at least 2 battleline units in 1000 points, or 3 units in 2000 points. Currently, you only have 1 battleline unit (Orruk Boyz equipt with Bows). It's important to note that Boar Boyz are only battleline in a GREENSKINZ allegiance (Which means 80% of your army needs to be GREENSKINZ) and Ardboyz are only battleline in IRONJAWZ allegiance (80% of the army being Ironjawz).

That being said, you're really only 10 Orruks off of a valid 1000 point list. If you wanted to give your models a spin (and please do! Most people are not going to care if they're still on square bases or something), you could run the following

 

Orruk Warboss (Use your Grimgor model) - General

Orruk Great Shaman

10x Orruks (Bows and Slashas) - Battleline

10x Orruks (Whatever you want, I recommend either double choppa or choppa and shield in low numbers) - Battleline

5x Orruk Boar Boyz

10x Orruk Ardboyz (with whatever equipment you have)

Aleguzzler Gargant

Grot Rock Lobber

 

Which is a nice rounded list for someone getting started in the game. You've got some long range fire in your artillery piece. You've got a nice centrepiece monster in the Gargant. And then you've got a bunch of Orruks running around.

[Malakree]

So the first thing to do is check what units have what warscrolls

11 minutes ago, CaptainNippon said:

- Grimgork 
Orruk Warboss

- 15 Black Orcs
Orruk Ardboys (Ironjawz)

- 5 Boar Boys 
Orruk Boarboys 

- Stone lobba
Rock Lobber

- Orc Shaman
Orruk Great Shaman

- 10 Orc Arrer Boyz
Greenskinz Orruks

- a Giant 
Aleguzzler Gargant

So you've got the basis of a greenskinz army with optional Ironjawz, Gitmob and/or Aleguzzler allies. You also have a pretty robust start to a Grand Alliance: Destruction using Stoneklaws Gutstompas allegiance from the firestorm campaign pack.

• If you can acquire 15 more black orcs from somewhere that will give you a full unit of 30 Ardboys, who are an amazing tarpit, without actually having to use the Ironjawz Models
• You need a second Rock Lobber to use with the first because they lose a ton of power if they aren't fielded in batteries of at least 2.
• Giants are hilarious and cheap on points! Great for filling out the behemoth slots on a budget.
• Sadly the Warboss is going to be mediocre, they are costed to be riding a boar with a great waaagh! banner and the combat ones are just worse than a wyvern mounted Warboss. You could potentially blag him as an Ironjawz megaboss?
• I would highly recommend adding a weirdnob shaman if you can stomach his model, honestly he is better in greenskinz than he is in ironjawz....

Right now it's less about supplementing with ironjawz, since realistically once you go down the Ironjawz route you have to go all the way otherwise you struggle to get your battleline in, plus most of the IJ power comes from internal synergy which doesn't work outside of it. The one exception being a weirdnob shaman (GET A WEIRDNOB SHAMAN!!!) who works off flat number of orruks.

Destruction as a whole is struggling with our most recent success coming out of an entirely Grot based army. Really there is a bunch of room for experimentation right now just because ironjawz is struggling along with the rest of destruction.

As a result I would tell you to seriously consider looking at the combined greenskinz/grot GA type army, 60 Gitmob archers with a gitmob shaman casting sneaky stabbin on them is a thing of beauty. In terms of expanding your collecting the start collecting box is where it's at. It will give you more of everything orruk as well as letting you build the fantastic Warboss with Greatwaagh! banner on a boar.

[CaptainNippon]

7 minutes ago, someone2040 said:

...

Thanks a lot for your elaboration!

That's much better than I expected. As a newcomer I don't see myself competing for top spots, so that's fine with me as long as I have a decent chance of winning from time to time.

The list you posted should be fairly easy to complete, so that's great news as well. 

2 minutes ago, Malakree said:

...

Thank you as well for your comment!

An additional Lobba and more Black Orcs sounds like a natural expansion somewhere down the road, so that's good to know.

As for the Warboss, it's a pity that Grimgor has been reduced to that, but I suppose there's no way around that

I still have my trusted orc shaman and the model is really dear to me, so I guess I could use him as a weirdnob shaman, but just in case my opponent won't let me: ist there a generic shaman choice for Orruks?

[someone2040]

9 minutes ago, CaptainNippon said:

As for the Warboss, it's a pity that Grimgor has been reduced to that, but I suppose there's no way around that

I still have my trusted orc shaman and the model is really dear to me, so I guess I could use him as a weirdnob shaman, but just in case my opponent won't let me: ist there a generic shaman choice for Orruks?

Yeah, it's a bit of a shame. @Malakree is pretty spot on. The Warboss sadly is a bit pricey, as he has an amazing command ability, can ride a boar for speed, and has the ability to take the Banner which gives him utility for all Orruk armies.

There is the regular Orruk Great Shaman warscroll which is what you should be using for your Orc Shaman. In general, you should always be running things as what they actually are. He also is a likely a bit pricier than he should be because he can ride on a Boar. The Weirdnob in general is better as he has more/better spells available.

 

That being said, I think first and foremost I'd just trying to be getting models on the table and having a go at the game. Get the feel for things and then decide if you want to continue with Greenskinz, or try out a different army.

[Malakree]

13 minutes ago, CaptainNippon said:

I still have my trusted orc shaman and the model is really dear to me, so I guess I could use him as a weirdnob shaman, but just in case my opponent won't let me: ist there a generic shaman choice for Orruks?

In the quote I linked the warscroll for each of the units. If you click on the great shaman it will bring up the warscroll for him. 

[PlasticCraic]

I'm going to stick my neck out here and disagree with what's been posted before.  From a factual point of view (Compendium, army composition etc) everything is totally correct.  But as for power level, in my opinion the honest answer is no, they are extremely weak.  To put it in context I'm thinking of taking Greenskinz to a Noob-friendly event in a couple of weeks specifically to run something soft which won't scare off newcomers.  They are an army you would take to deliberately handicap yourself.

I'm absolutely not trying to talk you out of picking up AOS in any way whatsoever!  I just wouldn't want you to take these guys to a competitive event and get smashed around, because that could be disheartening and put you off for good. 

If you are OK with facing an uphill battle however, go for it!  If you really, really love this faction, and you are not the kind of person to lose heart if you lose a lot of games, playing on "Hard Mode" can only help your game in the long run.

Do you have any opponents you could play practice games against?  Maybe let them know what they're bringing too, so they can bring something appropriate?

[heywoah_twitch]

Agree with plasticCraic, sadly. It's a totally unsupported army with very poor warscrolls, and would likely be a frustrating faction to play beyond the 'learning the ropes' stage.

@CaptainNippon

Off topic but who is that sumo? He looks so familiar, but I can't place it. Did you see tochinoshin last basho?!

[CaptainNippon]

24 minutes ago, heywoah_twitch said:

Agree with plasticCraic, sadly. It's a totally unsupported army with very poor warscrolls, and would likely be a frustrating faction to play beyond the 'learning the ropes' stage.

@CaptainNippon

Off topic but who is that sumo? He looks so familiar, but I can't place it. Did you see tochinoshin last basho?!

That's Kotoyuuki - I had a thing for him a few months back (or rather for his hooting pre-bout), but he has fallen off quite a bit in my personal ranking. Tochinoshin is just a beast when he's in good form and I'm so happy for his win

 

26 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

...

Thanks for your honesty. I was expecting as much when it comes to tournaments, but I'm not planning on attending any for the time being anyway. 

I'm not particularly fond of tournaments in general and as a newcomer I'd probably get crushed no matter what army I bring  

Maybe once I've gotten the hang of the game, I'll tro to get on the more competitive side.

 

[heywoah_twitch]

Ohh the hoot! now I get the lens flair 

Didn't the association tell him to stop that? Anyway back to your thread.

[erasercrumbs]

Greenskinz have one nifty advantage in the form of super-cheap Battleline infantry with Rend, which isn't terribly common.

I've been thinking about going for Greenskinz myself, because I like the idea of Orruks as an anarchic mob, and Greenskinz suit that better than the Ironjawz do.

[Malakree]

So to clarify briefly I was suggesting an Orruk/Grot themed Grand Alliance army rather than a greenskinz specific army. 

I still highly recommend getting the Start Collecting: Greenskinz because all of the SC boxes are fantastic value for money, you don't want Ironjawz and Beastclaw Raiders isn't going to fit into your army. As a result the best way for you to bulk up your force, give you options and let you learn the game is that box, it will help give you the foundation to be able to better understand warscrolls and so know how you want to branch out in the future. The fact that a Warboss on Boar with Great Waaagh! banner is fantastic at the moment is just the icing on the cake.

I'd suspect you will end up going for a Stoneclaws Gunstompas, rather than Greenskinz, including Grots, Artillery and Giants but for now the SC box is without a doubt the best thing to buy for your collection. Personally I intend to pick one up as one of my next buys JUST for the Warboss, that's as an Ironjawz player.

[Ollie Grimwood]

Greenskinz as a faction are a bit limited but as core of a Grand Alliance Destruction Force they’re pretty handy.   Boys are a decent battleline (down right good in larger units) and the Warbooss’ command ability works or all Orruks. Chuck in the Stoneklaw Alliegence ability from Firestorm for some added fun and away you go. 

 

[Túrbóbelja]

IMO no one should let the power level stop him/her. The game gets boring really fast if everyone is playing Stromcast, Tzeencth and Khorne. I'm going to buy myself a FW gigantic spawn for shis and giggles and it will be glorious. Good luck on your greenskin army, I prefer them over the over armored Ironjawz.

[CaptainNippon]

sorry for the double post - please delete this

[CaptainNippon]

2 hours ago, Malakree said:

The fact that a Warboss on Boar with Great Waaagh! banner is fantastic at the moment is just the icing on the cake.

So you bring him mostly for the wound rerolls, right? With the banner he doesn't seem particularly strong in melee, but I can see how strong that rule is coupled with big mobs of boys and Blackorcs.

Do you think bringing two Warbosses (one with two choppas and one with Banner) would be too expensive point-wise?

44 minutes ago, Túrbóbelja said:

IMO no one should let the power level stop him/her. The game gets boring really fast if everyone is playing Stromcast, Tzeencth and Khorne. I'm going to buy myself a FW gigantic spawn for shis and giggles and it will be glorious. Good luck on your greenskin army, I prefer them over the over armored Ironjawz.

I agree wholeheartedly and I've always been more of a fluff person when it comes to army themes, but that's also exactly why I know how power creep can take a lot of fun out of some matchups in these games. I just want to make sure Greenskins are not at the rock bottom of AoS is all

[Xpress]

I play a mixed greenskinz list myself. While its not a top tier army I have not done bad against most armys I have faced. I can think of only one game that I was not even remotely competitive with and that was tzeentch and he was running a army where he was carrying a ton of horrors and wizards and was throwing mortal wounds out every turn. I cant remember the exact battalion but it was not fun to play against.

Here is my current 2000 pt list

Leaders
Orruk Warboss (140)
- General
- Boss Choppa & Shield 
- Trait: Big and Brutish
- Artefact: Rockeye
Gitmob Grot Shaman (80)
Moonclan Grot Shaman (80)
Moonclan Grot Shaman (80)

Battleline
30 x Orruks (270)
- Choppa & Shield 
30 x Orruks (270)
- Choppa & Shield 
10 x Orruk Boarboys (200)
- Greenskinz Battleline
1 x Orruk Boar Chariots (80)
- Greenskinz Battleline
40 x Gitmob Grots (200)
- Bows & Slashas 
40 x Moonclan Grots (260)
- Stabbas & Moon Shields 

Units
3 x Grot Fanatics (100)

Behemoths
Mangler Squigs (240)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 197
 

Copy

 

 

 

[Malakree]

2 hours ago, CaptainNippon said:

So you bring him mostly for the wound rerolls, right? With the banner he doesn't seem particularly strong in melee, but I can see how strong that rule is coupled with big mobs of boys and Blackorcs.

Do you think bringing two Warbosses (one with two choppas and one with Banner) would be too expensive point-wise?

At 140 points the warboss is a support hero. For 100 points more you can get the wyvern below him who makes him a WAY better combat hero in every regard. You can use him as a combat hero I'd just say you need to compare his warscroll with the Ironjawz Megaboss then realise you are paying the same price for the two of them. Sadly it's not even comparable and it's because the Warboss has the boar/banner costed into his warscroll while the megaboss is costed as a slow moving combat beast then end result being that a warboss who isn't on a boar is just flat worse than a a megaboss. Hence my saying you base and use the model as a megaboss rather than a warboss.

3 hours ago, CaptainNippon said:

I agree wholeheartedly and I've always been more of a fluff person when it comes to army themes, but that's also exactly why I know how power creep can take a lot of fun out of some matchups in these games. I just want to make sure Greenskins are not at the rock bottom of AoS is all

So I made a post/rant on this the other day. Basically there are three tiers of army. T1 is the god mode armies that don't play the same game as everyone else, T2 is the armies that actually play the game and can beat T1 armies, T3 armies are the weaker armies which play the game and can't beat T1.

Greenskins are probably T3 fortunately Grand Alliance: Destruction is probably in T2 somewhere at the moment, while Stoneklaws Gutstompas are pretty solidly T2 along with Ironjawz. As long as you aren't going to tournaments you will be fine.

[karch]

5 hours ago, Túrbóbelja said:

IMO no one should let the power level stop him/her. The game gets boring really fast if everyone is playing Stromcast, Tzeencth and Khorne. I'm going to buy myself a FW gigantic spawn for shis and giggles and it will be glorious. Good luck on your greenskin army, I prefer them over the over armored Ironjawz.

Of course that, but getting roflstomped on the first 5 games almost ensures you won't play a 6th

No one likes to feel they didn't have a chance.

[Túrbóbelja]

9 minutes ago, karch said:

Of course that, but getting roflstomped on the first 5 games almost ensures you won't play a 6th

No one likes to feel they didn't have a chance.

Very true.

That's why I love the Open War cards. If I am playing my changehost versus a much lower tier army I offer to have a extra Ruse or even a Sudden Death card to make the game interesting for every one involved. Maybe I'm being naive, but I haven't faced many hardcore-must-win players and it seems we are all just trying to play some games for fun. Even though rolfstomping someone can be tremendous fun.

[Pedro_L]

@Malakree do you have any idea how tournaments  respond to people playing Stoneclawz Gutstompaz as their Allegiance. It looks really interesting as an alternative way of branching into "mixed destruction" (I'm coming from Bonesplitterz), but seem to remember some speculation as to whether it would be outlawed at some tournaments.

[Malakree]

46 minutes ago, Pedro_L said:

@Malakree do you have any idea how tournaments  respond to people playing Stoneclawz Gutstompaz as their Allegiance. It looks really interesting as an alternative way of branching into "mixed destruction" (I'm coming from Bonesplitterz), but seem to remember some speculation as to whether it would be outlawed at some tournaments.

You have to ask each tournament individually. There are some who outlaw all firestorm allegiances because there are a few super OP order ones but there will be others who will let you use them. This is far more likely at the local/regional tournaments than the big ones but as I say ask the organiser well in advance.

Remember as well that if you want to play Stoneklaws Gutstompas you will need the firestorm book, I'd also recommend making sure you know where in it the relevant rules are.

[PlasticCraic]

3 hours ago, Malakree said:

Lets face it on the OP scale Stoneclaws is below the entire of Grand Alliance: Stormcast who are infest tournaments at every level!

For sure!  But I don't think many TOs would rule "this one's OK because Destruction needs a leg up, that one's not OK because they're already too good".  They'll just ban the lot to keep it clear and fair, sorry "fair".

FWIW they were outlawed at CanCon recently and I've never known of anyone use them in Australia.  

[Sangfroid]

Prior to ironjawz release I played a mixed army of Orruks, war bosses shaman, ogors , gargant, Ardboyz  (Black Orcs) and orruk boar chariots. 

Some cool things that worked for me 

1) 40 boyz with choppa and shield, add in a mystic shield from shaman and also inspiring presence from general and you have a solid block that will hold,out against most foes for a serious amount of time (anything that can dish out riculous rend -2 attacks or mortal wounds will smash you though). Your boyz fight back pretty well too and with the great waagh banner the reroll 1s to wound is a good help) once you have pinned your enemy with da boyz flank the enemy with any of, gargant, ironguts, Brutes, warbosses with -2 rend big choppas to get most of the actual killin done. 

2) chariots are fun and really useful, they are cheap (80pts) fast (ish) have 6 wounds and a good armour save plus can do d3 mortals on the charge. They also have a big base so are ideal chaff units to either get in the way or tag the corners of enemy units to stop them from doing what they want too, and usually will last at least 1 if not 2 comba rounds (which is usually long enough) you can also take them in units though they probably aren’t that good for that.  For those scenarios that allow one model to score having a cheap unit doing nothing but scoring is ace, plus with some luck in fighting and mortals on the charge they can pose a threat to judicators and such, but will often be ignored so you get to trundle about being annoying 

3) if your happy to go mixed Destruction then tyrants (-2 rend two handed) and ironguts are amazing, normal ogors are also decent as either small objective holders (3 for 120) medium battleline fighters (6 for 240) or a mound of flesh  (12 for 400) while they have no rend if you take them with 2 clubs and in a unit of 12 then you can really rely on them to put the hurt on because they are damage 2 so even if you only get your opponent to have to make 10 saves agaisnt a 4+ armour save unit that’s still on average 10 wounds thru, I have had 6 one shot a bastilidon :-) 

4) artillery needs to be in blocks of 2 or more (as @Malakree mentioned) because of the rerolls, Extra shots or damage you get by having 2 close together 

overall one great advantage  of a mixed Destruction style army is you build a mini synergy (boyz, shaman warboss) but largely all the units can generally work independently and still be okay to hold their own for a bit. 

It’s still a tier 2 or 3 army BUT with good play can often make you feel like your “in the game” so even in losses you will have a lot of fun 

 

I mean how can you not have fun with and kind of orruks bashin about! 

[kaaras]

To overcome some of the other obstacles that are lacking, what about Leadbelchers as an option? Granted, the weapons are short range, but they are fast and with the generic ability should get into range relatively quickly, or if you cede first turn, a lot armies are going to come to you, which makes it much easier to shoot the bejesus out of them when they arrive. D6 attacks if they don't move is nothing to sneeze at if they don't move and no enemies are around. So, for instance, someone turns up 9" away and fails the charge... well, thats a lot of shots (potentially) nailing them in the face. And they are still -1 rend and 2 Damage in combat with 2 attacks each. 6 of these can't be too bad an investment surely?