Lets Chat: Legions of Nagash

[Killax]

1 minute ago, RuneBrush said:

I thought the rule for Legion of Night (as with summonables) was "instead of setting up" - so it still counts as a drop during the setup phase?

But you don't drop anything during the setup phase? So how do drops count if you don't drop anything?

I'm not up to date on the rules involved with that, I'll give you that  

[Malakithe]

14 minutes ago, Killax said:

The Battalions don't even excite me much to be honest...

If you want to cut into drops, summon them.

For me it has nothing to do with drops, thats just a bonus. For me its all about giving the necros the ability to cast 2 spells a turn. Thats 4 spells then Arkhan can cast 3 in the battalion. And with 12 spells plus warscroll options...mmm...plenty of fun stuff to choose from.

Minimum Sacrament battalion with 3×40 skellies is 1630pts

 

[RuneBrush]

Just now, Killax said:

But you don't drop anything during the setup phase? So how do drops count if you don't drop anything?

I'm not up to date on the rules involved with that, I'll give you that  

I could well be wrong (mostly been a dirty Khorne player too), but the way I've played it is you select a unit to setup and then can declare you're not putting it on the table (instead putting it Azyr, underground, overground (wombling free) etc).  This does mean your opponent is then forced to show a bit more of his hand to begin with too.

I think we've just adopted drops as a "thing" as it's the easiest way to explain how we put things on/off the table

[Killax]

2 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

For me it has nothing to do with drops, thats just a bonus. For me its all about giving the necros the ability to cast 2 spells a turn. Thats 4 spells then Arkhan can cast 3 in the battalion. And with 12 spells plus warscroll options...mmm...plenty of fun stuff to choose from.

Minimum Sacrament battalion with 3×40 skellies is 1630pts

 

But you can do that simply by playing a Corpse cart with Unholy poker and Legion of Sacrement. I tend to think that the aspect ripples even harder... But I do agree that if you thake Arkhan with LoS is a smart move, I just doubt you actually need that Battalion.

[Jamopower]

I have been thinking about the banshees in my future Legion of Blood. With the spell and having a unit with a banner close by, you can give the opponent quite easily -3 to bravery, which will make the banshee screams very scary against many things and the Banshees are not the only ones with the bravery based screams. The Bloodseeker palanquin, the new Vampire prince and Terrorgheist all feel quite nice. e.g. the Terrorgheist scream is 3+d6 mortal wounds against bravery 6 units.

[smucreo]

Yeah I theorycrafted a similar thing a while ago, though as legion of blood is the one legion I'm less interested in I've abandoned the idea for now. 

[Killax]

5 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

I could well be wrong (mostly been a dirty Khorne player too), but the way I've played it is you select a unit to setup and then can declare you're not putting it on the table (instead putting it Azyr, underground, overground (wombling free) etc).  This does mean your opponent is then forced to show a bit more of his hand to begin with too.

I think we've just adopted drops as a "thing" as it's the easiest way to explain how we put things on/off the table

Well, the way I look into those Core rules is that they state that you set up etc. But if you are 'done' setting up by not setting up anything (Legion of Night) I do think you effectively create a 0 drop.

Now yeah, typically you'll have at least 2 drops for Vampires to go to Gravemarkers but other than that all these units that are Summonned or set in Ambush are not set up before the battle begins as far as I read into it...

I don't even have acces to the stuff but I have a vague feeling it does work that way?

2 minutes ago, Jamopower said:

I have been thinking about the banshees in my future Legion of Blood. With the spell and having a unit with a banner close by, you can give the opponent quite easily -3 to bravery, which will make the banshee screams very scary against many things and the Banshees are not the only ones with the bravery based screams. The Bloodseeker palanquin, the new Vampire prince and Terrorgheist all feel quite nice.

Yeah certainly. I really like where the Terrorgheist and Flying Vampires are right now. Because the cost of a Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon is really just stapling the two of them together but in reality I'd like my Vampire Lord to stick around in the middle of a 40 Skeleton block so he can provide magical support/command ability support/command trait support.

Do like the Legion of Blood for Vampire Lords on Zombie Dragons, but I do also think that the Bravery aspect is a nice tool but not something I'd heavily lean onto.

[RuneBrush]

2 minutes ago, Killax said:

Well, the way I look into those Core rules is that they state that you set up etc. But if you are 'done' setting up by not setting up anything (Legion of Night) I do think you effectively create a 0 drop.

Now yeah, typically you'll have at least 2 drops for Vampires to go to Gravemarkers but other than that all these units that are Summonned or set in Ambush are not set up before the battle begins as far as I read into it...

I don't even have acces to the stuff but I have a vague feeling it does work that way?

Can see the logic with that - sadly I've just checked the FAQ's though and they've sort of stolen the jam from the donut on doing that .

[Killax]

1 minute ago, RuneBrush said:

Can see the logic with that - sadly I've just checked the FAQ's though and they've sort of stolen the jam from the donut on doing that .

Huh well, it is what it is then, still not sold on the Battalions however.

I'd rather just scoot in there and summon the stuff based on scenery allowing for some LoS blockage to Vampires,

[Smavo]

Everyone realises that we only get 1 lore of the dead spell per wizard. Sacrament doesnt get any extra they know, still 1. The only char that knows more than one lore of the dead spell is Nagash. Which is 3.

 

Ive seen allot of people thinking it means 2 spells from the lore per wizard but thats just not the case.

[Malakithe]

21 minutes ago, Killax said:

But you can do that simply by playing a Corpse cart with Unholy poker and Legion of Sacrement. I tend to think that the aspect ripples even harder... But I do agree that if you thake Arkhan with LoS is a smart move, I just doubt you actually need that Battalion.

No the battalion gives the ability to cast another spell. The Sacrament allegiance gives you the ability to pick another spell. LoS wizards can pick 2 instead of the normal one. Then the battalion allows you to cast another

[Malakithe]

4 minutes ago, Smavo said:

Everyone realises that we only get 1 lore of the dead spell per wizard. Sacrament doesnt get any extra they know, still 1. The only char that knows more than one lore of the dead spell is Nagash. Which is 3.

 

Ive seen allot of people thinking it means 2 spells from the lore per wizard but thats just not the case.

Actually that is the case. One of the Sacrament allegiance abilities is picking an additional spell. Thats on top of the one ever wizard can normally take. The other legions cant though

[Xasz]

1 minute ago, Malakithe said:

Actually that is the case. One of the Sacrament allegiance abilities is picking an additional spell. Thats on top of the one ever wizard can normally take. The other legions cant though

No?

Or citation please.

LoSacrament exclusive abilities are The Master's Teachings and The Black Disciples, none of those allow another spell.

The 'Magic' part on the page before artifacts/abilities is just a standard text that informs the player that he can use the new lores with Legions/Grand Host. The same wording appears under every legion.

Additionally, the wording is different from other battletomes, beforehand the reference to the lore and which wizards are eligible was on top of the actual lore pages. In LoN the reference is under the legions. (read the text on the lore page again "Wizards that know an additional spell..." and these wizards are only Legion or Grand Host wizards)

[Sception]

45 minutes ago, Smavo said:

Ive seen allot of people thinking it means 2 spells from the lore per wizard but thats just not the case.

This is an incorrect idea that sprang up around the sacrament preview, which stated all LoN wizards got a spell from the new lores at the start of fhe article. Then later showed a pic that said sacrament wizards get 'one extra' spell from the lores, so some people, myself included, thought that meant one extra in addition the one spell chosen from the lores that all LoN (and soulblight) wizards get.

But the 'one extra' wording IS the spell that all LoN wizards get.  Its one extra beyond the spells on their scrolls, just like the wizards in other legions, not one extra beyond what other legion wizards get.

[Mortarch]

Been looking at the following Nagash list, any thoughts or comments are very welcome.

 

List:
180    - First Cohort Battalion

800     - Nagash
    - 3+ Divert W or MW to Morghast Battery Pack (10 wounds)
    - 2+ save, re-rolling 1s with mystic shield
    - 4+ MW Save
    - 6+ Death Save
    - 3 wounds to skellies every turn
    - 2D3+D6 MW in magic per turn
    Saves:
        13.75% MW will go through until Morghast dead. 42% afterwards

        Rend 0 - Mystic Shield
        0.69% wounds go through with morghasts. 2.3% without.

        Rend 2 - Mystic Shield
        18% go through with morghasts. 55% without.

    Spells: 
        Amythistine Pinions: +5" move
        Vile Tx: D3 Mortals
        Amaranthine Orb: D6 mortals

220     - Morghasts
    Halberds. +1 attack from battalion
    Stays with Nagash to absorb damage
    5+ Mortal Save
    6+ Death Dave

320     - 40 Skelletons
    +2 Attacks
    +1 Hit from dedicated necromancer nearby
    Rerolls 1s to hit and save from Nagash
    Vanhels to double attack in combat
    6+ Deathsave
    6+ Diadem save from Necromancer

110    Necromancer
    Dedicated to skellie block.
    Takes diadem for 6+ save to skells
    Overwhelming dread for -1 hit and -1 bravery
    Tx wounds to skells

110    Necromancer
    Healling artifact
    Dedicated to skellie block.

80 10 Skells
    Set up in Grave

80 10 Skells
    Set up in Grave

120    White king, mounted to summon onto objectives.
=============================
2000 Total, 4 drops with two in grave.

GENERAL STRATEGY
-Place 4 grave sites in overlapping in centre of board, ensuring coverage of objectives.
- WK or Necromancer runs to objective to summon onto.
- Nagash and morghasts to snipe dangerous units.
- Between 5 and 15 wounds back to skellie unit per turn.

WEAKNESSES:
- Support hero fragility.

- Low unit count... basically two major elements and minor free radicals.

- Nagash will draw fire and once dead army will collapse. Morghasts cant be healed.

[Sception]

@Mortarch The points you listed add up to up to 2020, but also First cohort is 160, not 180, and 40 skeletons is 280, not 320.  So the actual total is 1960.

You could drop the wight king to up the summoned skellies to 20 each, or replace them with 2x10 grave guard, and still be at 2000 exactly.  Or you could swap the wight king for a mounted vamp lord, leaving you at 1980, to do the same thing while knowing another spell for nagash and being a bit more personally threatening.

[BURF1]

2 hours ago, Malakithe said:

For me it has nothing to do with drops, thats just a bonus. For me its all about giving the necros the ability to cast 2 spells a turn. Thats 4 spells then Arkhan can cast 3 in the battalion. And with 12 spells plus warscroll options...mmm...plenty of fun stuff to choose from.

Minimum Sacrament battalion with 3×40 skellies is 1630pts

 

See, I think running more than 1 40 of skeletons just isn't very good (even then I'd personally rather have Dwolvez) unless you're running Nagash, Especially at competitive events. You hit anything with a 3+ save and all you're really going to accomplish is making sure you have to dice down sometime in turn 2.

With LoS they become worse since you can't afford to use inspiring presence turn 1 and even if you could they just attack the other 2 big units, then you risk losing the whole unit to battleshock before you can even start regening.

[Xasz]

This is overall an interesting question, that'll be answered over the next couple months.

How many horde units are reasonable competitive? One? Two? Three?

I'm leaning towards two but I might be terribly wrong.

[Malakithe]

1 hour ago, Xasz said:

No?

Or citation please.

LoSacrament exclusive abilities are The Master's Teachings and The Black Disciples, none of those allow another spell.

The 'Magic' part on the page before artifacts/abilities is just a standard text that informs the player that he can use the new lores with Legions/Grand Host. The same wording appears under every legion.

Additionally, the wording is different from other battletomes, beforehand the reference to the lore and which wizards are eligible was on top of the actual lore pages. In LoN the reference is under the legions. (read the text on the lore page again "Wizards that know an additional spell..." and these wizards are only Legion or Grand Host wizards)

 

1 hour ago, Sception said:

This is an incorrect idea that sprang up around the sacrament preview, which stated all LoN wizards got a spell from the new lores at the start of fhe article. Then later showed a pic that said sacrament wizards get 'one extra' spell from the lores, so some people, myself included, thought that meant one extra in addition the one spell chosen from the lores that all LoN (and soulblight) wizards get.

But the 'one extra' wording IS the spell that all LoN wizards get.  Its one extra beyond the spells on their scrolls, just like the wizards in other legions, not one extra beyond what other legion wizards get.

They do get an extra extra spell. Look at every battletome and allegiance release so far. As a bonus to being in a allegiance of whatever each wizard gets to pick out a free spell of a lore if there is one. So all Death Wizards that can pick a spell will...that doesnt matter what Legion they are in. Now on top of that the Sacrament guys get to pick one more as one of the Legion bonuses. 

Why would they add in this when every Wizard gets a free spell just for being added to a allegiance list in the first place?

All Tzeentch Wizards get to pick a free spell for being in a full Tzeentch list. Thats how everyones allegiance works. Sacrament get a bonus free since they are the casty bois

[Xasz]

1 minute ago, Malakithe said:

 

They do get an extra extra spell. Look at every battletome and allegiance release so far. As a bonus to being in a allegiance of whatever each wizard gets to pick out a free spell of a lore if there is one. So all Death Wizards that can pick a spell will...that doesnt matter what Legion they are in. Now on top of that the Sacrament guys get to pick one more as one of the Legion bonuses. 

Why would they add in this when every Wizard gets a free spell just for being added to a allegiance list in the first place?

All Tzeentch Wizards get to pick a free spell for being in a full Tzeentch list. Thats how everyones allegiance works. Sacrament get a bonus free since they are the casty bois

No.

Read the entries in each (or any, doesn't really matter, they are all the same) Legion about Magic and then the text on top of the spell lore pages.

It is different in LoN compared to the other battletomes.

Bottom line, they get only one spell.

[Killax]

I personally think 2-3 blocks of 'horde' is sufficient. 

Cool factor list: 

Legion: Grand Host of Nagash
Vampire Lord - General - 
Vampire Lord
Necromancer 
Necromancer

6 Morghast Harbingers
40 Skeleton Warriors (spears)
40 Skeleton Warriors (spears)
Optional: 
40 Skeleton Warriors (spears)/2xCorpse Cart with Unholy+10 Dire Wolves/... 280 points to spend on your leisure really. 

Basically the force presents itself from the Gravesites minus Heroes and the massive Morghast Harbingers Hammer. Hammer becomes the Deathstar that reaches out. Skeleton Warriors become the anvil/hammer combi that pushes on and the rest can either focus on support, objectives, more hammers or being more anvils.

Pretty much the same set up seems very healthy for the Legion of Night. This then removes 6 Morghasts and opts for 2 Terrorgheists who are capable to Shoot from the Ambush.

Last option would be to present the rough same set up minus the Morghast hammer with Legion of Sacrement and focus more on hero support and/or Arkhan. This too seems very potent. Love what the Corpse Cart does there.

Plan A is really to reach out with Vampire Lords for Gravesites, set up the Undead swarm as if you got a turn for free and present several different hammers...

[smucreo]

I'll spam with my list too  This is the latest version of the list I've been brewing up, still not sure if I'd use the vamp lord to summon 40 of the 2x40 skellies far ahead or not though. I'm also not sure if I really want vamp lord instead of wight king, even though i have the points and another caster could be cool, since I'd rather stay with the skellies and have an extra save on the hero. For the necromancer artifact I just put the balefire as placeholder, but it could work so hey let me know your thoughts. I think this list is pretty good, it uses the regen to a great deal and has access to nice buffs for magic while also having a pretty strong hammer in a unit of 4 Morghasts (or 2x2).  

[Aginor]

I might have missed it, but:

Do we already know how Battlelines work? For example Black Knights: Are those Battleline in a GHoN or LoS army?
They used to be Deathrattle Battleline IIRC, but I assume Deathrattle allegiance doesn't exist anymore after Legions of Nagash, does it?

[AlvinAOS]

1 minute ago, Aginor said:

I might have missed it, but:

Do we already know how Battlelines work? For example Black Knights: Are those Battleline in a GHoN or LoS army?

Black Knights are not Battleline anymore.

[AlvinAOS]