Lets Chat: Legions of Nagash

[smucreo]

10 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

I feel like I'm a little bit closer to nailing down some actual lists, but that'll have to come later!

Looking forward to your lists!

[swarmofseals]

6 minutes ago, Undeadly said:

That pretty much confirms exactly what I was thinking, to be honest; make no mistake, Skeleton Hordes are deadly as hell, but they are no where near invulnerable as people think they are, even with DI. They definetly need that forward screen of Dire Wolfs to soak up shots and to provide a presence up the field, less they get mowed down and shot to oblivion. The beauty of direwolves is that not only are they surprisingly resilient, but they are fully capable of doing a moderate amount of damage, especially against softer enemy units.

Now, my other question that still eludes me, is how Black Knights and Hexwraiths stack up to one another.

I'm not sure that having Dire Wolves up field will really help much. Screens help against melee but won't stop the enemy from shooting down your objective holders.

Re: Black Knights vs. Hexwraiths I did the math a page or two upthread. 

[Lou_Cypher]

Hmmm, what would be the better weapon to equip a Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon with? Lance or Sword?

[Malakithe]

7 minutes ago, Lou_Cypher said:

Hmmm, what would be the better weapon to equip a Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon with? Lance or Sword?

Lance always 

[5kaven5lave]

Plus chalice and shield. Thanks for advice earlier guys. One more: Is a Mortis Engine not a Wizard? No spell lore option on warscrollbuilder. 

[Malakithe]

5 minutes ago, 5kaven5lave said:

Plus chalice and shield. Thanks for advice earlier guys. One more: Is a Mortis Engine not a Wizard? No spell lore option on warscrollbuilder. 

Its not a actual wizard. It just buffs them. Which is strange considering all the magicy stuff going on with it

[Malakithe]

54 minutes ago, scrollbuilderdude said:

Also, Warscroll Builder has been updated! Let me know if I missed anything.

VLoZD cant take any allegiance stuff from any Legion or Grand Host

[swarmofseals]

26 minutes ago, Lou_Cypher said:

Hmmm, what would be the better weapon to equip a Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon with? Lance or Sword?

I hate to rain on everyone's parade but it's not clear cut that the lance is better.

Lance charging: 4 damage average

Lance not charging:  2.67 damage average

Sword: 3.55 damage average 

 

With Legion of Blood buff:

Lance charging: 5.33 damage average

Lance not charging: 3.55 damage average

Sword: 4.44 damage average

 

So for a regular VLOZD the lance adds .45 damage when you charge but loses 1.33 damage when you aren't charging. Basically just to break even you need to be charging three rounds for every round that you aren't charging. Legion of Blood bonus closes the gap with the lance getting a .89 damage advantage on the charge while losing .89 damage when not charging. Now you only need to be charging half the time to break even, which seems much more realistic.

If you can add more than one attack then the lance becomes pretty clearly better. 

 

TL;DR: With no bonus attacks the sword is better, with one bonus attack they are the same, with more than one bonus attack the lance is better. 

[WoollyMammoth]

21 hours ago, Countmoore said:

Managed second place at a 16 player event today. Nagash killed three bloodthirstets and a host of other bits over three games. Sacrificed him to a mighty lord of khorne axe to win the mission in game one. 

Thoughts so far are that he is a great model still and stronger with the new spells and abilities. 

Genuinely excited to see how we do in some of the bigger events coming up this year. 

Quick blood Nagash. Very cool
What spells did you take?
How did you prevent people from targeting and killing nagash too fast?
What lists did you beat?
 

18 hours ago, Thostos said:

 Just wrapped up a game with Nagash vs a tournament Kunning Rukk(2x30 arrer boyz w/Goregrunta allies).Tabled the Bonesplitterz at the top of turn 5(the only round I went first on).Battleplan Battle for the Pass win 18 to 13 in points.

Very Cool. Love hearing Nagash success stories.
 

12 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

Lords of Sacrament. Three or four extra spell casts for 70 points is an insane value, and the armor bonus is just gravy. I know a lot of people have argued that a Balewind is "mandatory" with this battalion but I'm not so sure why that would be the case. It's not like you can put Arkhan on the Balewind, so really you are getting one Deathmages spell plus Arcane Bolt at the extended range. Perhaps being able to consistently hit most any target with Overwhelming Dread on turn 1 is the difference between winning and losing against Skyfire Spam or Aetherstrike Force? Against many armies I don't see it making a big impact. I also don't see why it would be needed here but not in other Death lists.

Option A: No Balewind.
First turn - even with all your range you aren't going to be able to cast anything first turn. Your best bet is to hope for an 18" deployment which is not going happen most of the time. If you are lucky your opponent may have some key units on a terrain piece that is sticking out of their deployment, so you can slow them down with a Spectral Grasp. Other than that, your first turn is always dedicated to setup, which means you are praying to win the first turn roll - along with everyone else.  7 spells and all you can do is cast Mystic Shield and hand the turn over.

Option B: Balewind.
Take a VL with Orb and place him behind all three casters in the battalion. He hops up on the Vortex and you got a 36" orb to start the turn. Even with the slightest of nudges, your Necromancers are now open to Dread, Vigor, Grasp and Decreprify. The extra Arcane Bolt is going off first turn. Arkhan can do a first turn CoY and also cast Soulpike. Your opponent has to eat your two best offenive spells and then is totally debuffed which has potential to completely stifle even through a double turn. I would take a Corpse Cart to maximize casting so you only need a 4 to get the balewind off an start casting.

Balewind + Lords of Sacrament might be the most interesting first turn list yet. It doesn't have the first turn punch that you really want, but opens up the entire new debuff lore for you to smother your opponent with, which used carefully might just be the most effective way to run the new book. Every debuff pushes your opponent into the long game, where death has the advantage.  
 

[Xasz]

7 minutes ago, WoollyMammoth said:

Option B: Balewind.
Take a VL with Orb and place him behind all three casters in the battalion. He hops up on the Vortex and you got a 36" orb to start the turn. Even with the slightest of nudges, your Necromancers are now open to Dread, Vigor, Grasp and Decreprify. The extra Arcane Bolt is going off first turn. Arkhan can do a first turn CoY and also cast Soulpike. Your opponent has to eat your two best offenive spells and then is totally debuffed which has potential to completely stifle even through a double turn. I would take a Corpse Cart to maximize casting so you only need a 4 to get the balewind off an start casting.

Balewind + Lords of Sacrament might be the most interesting first turn list yet. It doesn't have the first turn punch that you really want, but opens up the entire new debuff lore for you to smother your opponent with, which used carefully might just be the most effective way to run the new book. Every debuff pushes your opponent into the long game, where death has the advantage.  

Holy moly, I did not see that interaction...

It's so cheesy and awesome at the same time.

[swarmofseals]

15 minutes ago, WoollyMammoth said:

Option A: No Balewind.

Option B: Balewind.

I'm not arguing against taking the balewind, per se, but I'm not quite sure that I see your argument either. Most battleplans either have 18"or 24" neutral zones between deployment. If it's an 18" scenario, your opponent will be in range unless they deploy >6" off the line. In a 24" scenario they just have to deploy a fraction of an inch off the line to be out of range. With the balewind though they can just deploy 3" farther back and still be out of range of most of the spells. Surely you will catch some people out who don't know that a balewind can do this but it's not going to help you against experienced players. It does give you a slight positioning advantage, of course, but I'm just not seeing how it guarantees that you will get any spells off the first turn except from the guy actually on the vortex. 

Let's look at a couple of scenarios based on different opponents:

• Alpha strike: opponents with this type of list will want to go first and will certainly be in range of your spells in your hero phase.
• "Fair" lists: Difficult to predict, probably varies from list to list. In this case it doesn't really matter though as the first turn is likely to be used for positioning as neither army can do a whole lot on turn 1. If you have a reasonably fast list they will probably need to go first to hope to get on the objectives first -- if they let you set up on the objectives (either through gravesites or through fast units) and dig in they will be in serious trouble.
• Gunlines/Spell-lines: They will want to give you the first turn so that they can try to double turn you. I have to think that most of these lists can deploy their key shooters and characters plenty far back though. Skyfires have a 40" threat radius; Longstrikes have 30"; Savage Arrowboys are at 28" (with Hand of Gork/Mork). They can all just deploy 27.5" back and still be able to reach you on their turn. 

I'm not really seeing the same extreme advantage here. One noteworthy exception is a situation in which a 3" bump will allow you to reach a forward Gravesite that you wouldn't otherwise be able to reach. That could actually force your opponent into making some difficult decisions.

OK, all that being said, I do still agree with you that taking a balewind is something that we really should consider (regardless of Lord of Sacrament or not).  I think the 3" bump will make a difference for positioning in some situations but more importantly there are a number of lists where getting off a turn 1 Overwhelming Dread will be incredibly crucial, and the only way for it to be in range on turn 1 is with a balewind.

[Malakithe]

I hate wasting points on balewinds. We need another source of Overwhelming Dread other then the flimsy necro or Mortarchs

[BURF1]

11 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

I'm not arguing against taking the balewind, per se, but I'm not quite sure that I see your argument either. Most battleplans either have 18"or 24" neutral zones between deployment. If it's an 18" scenario, your opponent will be in range unless they deploy >6" off the line. In a 24" scenario they just have to deploy a fraction of an inch off the line to be out of range. With the balewind though they can just deploy 3" farther back and still be out of range of most of the spells. Surely you will catch some people out who don't know that a balewind can do this but it's not going to help you against experienced players. It does give you a slight positioning advantage, of course, but I'm just not seeing how it guarantees that you will get any spells off the first turn except from the guy actually on the vortex. 

Let's look at a couple of scenarios based on different opponents:

• Alpha strike: opponents with this type of list will want to go first and will certainly be in range of your spells in your hero phase.
• "Fair" lists: Difficult to predict, probably varies from list to list. In this case it doesn't really matter though as the first turn is likely to be used for positioning as neither army can do a whole lot on turn 1. If you have a reasonably fast list they will probably need to go first to hope to get on the objectives first -- if they let you set up on the objectives (either through gravesites or through fast units) and dig in they will be in serious trouble.
• Gunlines/Spell-lines: They will want to give you the first turn so that they can try to double turn you. I have to think that most of these lists can deploy their key shooters and characters plenty far back though. Skyfires have a 40" threat radius; Longstrikes have 30"; Savage Arrowboys are at 28" (with Hand of Gork/Mork). They can all just deploy 27.5" back and still be able to reach you on their turn. 

I'm not really seeing the same extreme advantage here. One noteworthy exception is a situation in which a 3" bump will allow you to reach a forward Gravesite that you wouldn't otherwise be able to reach. That could actually force your opponent into making some difficult decisions.

OK, all that being said, I do still agree with you that taking a balewind is something that we really should consider (regardless of Lord of Sacrament or not).  I think the 3" bump will make a difference for positioning in some situations but more importantly there are a number of lists where getting off a turn 1 Overwhelming Dread will be incredibly crucial, and the only way for it to be in range on turn 1 is with a balewind.

The other thing the balewind provides is actually being able to land some spells turn 1. No balewind=/=no spells except Mystic AT ALL if you go first, it's 100 points to reduce the single biggest weakness of this list setup which is your vulnerability to T1-T2 double turn. Remember, your opponent can shut down the formation benefits JUST by killing the Mortis engine which is not a particularly tough unit. Being able to hit a debuff on a fast unit or a shooting unit could be the difference between your mortis engine and support units living to be regened and dying outright.

[swarmofseals]

3 minutes ago, BURF1 said:

The other thing the balewind provides is actually being able to land some spells turn 1. No balewind=/=no spells except Mystic AT ALL if you go first, it's 100 points to reduce the single biggest weakness of this list setup which is your vulnerability to T1-T2 double turn. Remember, your opponent can shut down the formation benefits JUST by killing the Mortis engine which is not a particularly tough unit. Being able to hit a debuff on a fast unit or a shooting unit could be the difference between your mortis engine and support units living to be regened and dying outright.

This is pretty much exactly the question my post was addressing:

"OK, all that being said, I do still agree with you that taking a balewind is something that we really should consider (regardless of Lord of Sacrament or not).  I think the 3" bump will make a difference for positioning in some situations but more importantly there are a number of lists where getting off a turn 1 Overwhelming Dread will be incredibly crucial, and the only way for it to be in range on turn 1 is with a balewind."

@WoollyMammoth's argument is that the 3" movement "bump" that the balewind provides will allow you to get all your spells off turn 1. I argued that this is likely not the case against the kinds of lists that we actually strongly care about getting our spells off turn 1 against, but that the balewind is still probably worth taking because exactly one spell (Overwhelming Dread) is so massively important to surviving turn 1/2 against gunline armies (which are the armies we really want to be casting against turn 1).

[swarmofseals]

8 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

I hate wasting points on balewinds. We need another source of Overwhelming Dread other then the flimsy necro or Mortarchs

Has nothing to do with the flimsyness of Necromancers or Mortarchs and everything to do with casting range. You don't take a balewind to protect your Necromancer, you take it to have a chance at getting a critical debuff on turn 1 against armies that might otherwise table/cripple you if they get a double turn. 

[BURF1]

So, my own version of the LoB double Dragon list:

Prefacing this by saying that, while Vhordrai's command ability is SWEET, the VLoZD's command ability isn't too terribly worse when used on himself and makes it less devastating when one of them goes down. But that's not why I choose the VLoZD to be general, I choose the VLoZD to be general because the Legion of Blood Command traits are easily the best in the book IMHO.

Also, Blood Knights...not in a double dragon. You're condensing too many points into too few units as is and blood knights aren't resurrectable. The goal here is to weather the focus fire long enough to heal back up, which blood knights just can't do anymore. 

So here goes:

Vhordrai

VLoZD General Aristocracy of blood(though there are 3 other GREAT traits for this) Soulbound Garments(amulet also great)

Necro

Vamp Lord(-)

5 Dwolves

5 Dwolves

10 skellies

Mortis Engine (I think this is great in most multi character lists. It's SO helpful and people waste shots at it all the time)

Batswarm (summon out of gravesites to hopefully  ****** up shooting a bit)(-)

10 Black Knights(-)

3 Spirit Hosts (-)

Everything with a minus is something I'm on the fence about. I'm not sure exactly what would be the best bodies to fill the list out with but I need things that can contribute meaningfully to doing damage while also having decent staying power. I'm also worried about not having enough magic. With all the spells we have now, it's so hard to choose what to cast.

[BURF1]

12 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

This is pretty much exactly the question my post was addressing:

"OK, all that being said, I do still agree with you that taking a balewind is something that we really should consider (regardless of Lord of Sacrament or not).  I think the 3" bump will make a difference for positioning in some situations but more importantly there are a number of lists where getting off a turn 1 Overwhelming Dread will be incredibly crucial, and the only way for it to be in range on turn 1 is with a balewind."

@WoollyMammoth's argument is that the 3" movement "bump" that the balewind provides will allow you to get all your spells off turn 1. I argued that this is likely not the case against the kinds of lists that we actually strongly care about getting our spells off turn 1 against, but that the balewind is still probably worth taking because exactly one spell (Overwhelming Dread) is so massively important to surviving turn 1/2 against gunline armies (which are the armies we really want to be casting against turn 1).

Oh whoops, skimmed it too fast, lol. Glad we were both thinking along the same lines though.

[Malakithe]

4 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

Has nothing to do with the flimsyness of Necromancers or Mortarchs and everything to do with casting range. You don't take a balewind to protect your Necromancer, you take it to have a chance at getting a critical debuff on turn 1 against armies that might otherwise table/cripple you if they get a double turn. 

Oh i know i has nothing to with durability. Its a one trick pony. Your opponents first turn that necro is gone. Then your out a source of DI, DM extender, and 2 spells(with battalion). All for what? A chance to cast Dread on a single unit and pop d3 MW?

[BURF1]

2 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Oh i know i has nothing to with durability. Its a one trick pony. Your opponents first turn that necro is gone. Then your out a source of DI, DM extender, and 2 spells(with battalion). All for what? A chance to cast Dread on a single unit and pop d3 MW?

He shouldn't necessarily be 'gone' at -2 to hit, in cover, with deathless minions(or 4++ depending on the relic) Your opponent shouldn't really be killing it turn 1. Skyfires might but Vanguard raptors won't,  judicators usually need 2 units and above average rolls or they won't, Kurnoths won't. Most casters won't be willing to get into unbind range first turn. He won't survive a double but he should be able to stand one turn against most armies.

[Malakithe]

1 minute ago, BURF1 said:

He shouldn't necessarily be 'gone' at -2 to hit, in cover, with deathless minions(or 4++ depending on the relic) Your opponent shouldn't really be killing it turn 1. Skyfires might but Vanguard raptors won't,  judicators usually need 2 units and above average rolls or they won't, Kurnoths won't. Most casters won't be willing to get into unbind range first turn. He won't survive a double but he should be able to stand one turn against most armies.

Fair point there lol

[Malakithe]

13 minutes ago, BURF1 said:

So, my own version of the LoB double Dragon list:

Prefacing this by saying that, while Vhordrai's command ability is SWEET, the VLoZD's command ability isn't too terribly worse when used on himself and makes it less devastating when one of them goes down. But that's not why I choose the VLoZD to be general, I choose the VLoZD to be general because the Legion of Blood Command traits are easily the best in the book IMHO.

Also, Blood Knights...not in a double dragon. You're condensing too many points into too few units as is and blood knights aren't resurrectable. The goal here is to weather the focus fire long enough to heal back up, which blood knights just can't do anymore. 

So here goes:

Vhordrai

VLoZD General Aristocracy of blood(though there are 3 other GREAT traits for this) Soulbound Garments(amulet also great)

Necro

Vamp Lord(-)

5 Dwolves

5 Dwolves

10 skellies

Mortis Engine (I think this is great in most multi character lists. It's SO helpful and people waste shots at it all the time)

Batswarm (summon out of gravesites to hopefully  ****** up shooting a bit)(-)

10 Black Knights(-)

3 Spirit Hosts (-)

Everything with a minus is something I'm on the fence about. I'm not sure exactly what would be the best bodies to fill the list out with but I need things that can contribute meaningfully to doing damage while also having decent staying power. I'm also worried about not having enough magic. With all the spells we have now, it's so hard to choose what to cast.

Double dragon...i like how that sounds lol

[swarmofseals]

3 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Oh i know i has nothing to with durability. Its a one trick pony. Your opponents first turn that necro is gone. Then your out a source of DI, DM extender, and 2 spells(with battalion). All for what? A chance to cast Dread on a single unit and pop d3 MW?

Your opponent can choose to go first and pop your Necromancer regardless of whether or not you took a balewind, and as the balewind isn't assigned to a specific character until you cast it you don't exactly waste the points even if they do take turn 1 and pop the necro. 

Against a normal opponent having access to the balewind allows you to deploy that necro much further back than you normally would, which in itself should protect it if they take the first turn. 

Against a Tier 1 long ranged gunline list (Kunnin' Rukk, Aetherstrike for example) you basically lose the game if they double turn you on turn 1 into turn 2. They can wipe out all of your objective holders, which means you have no chance. I did extensive math on this a little bit upthread from here, and suffice to say that getting a -1 hit penalty on the key shooting unit changes the math substantially. They go from being able to wipe your board with a double turn to being able to only take out one block (assuming your composition is correct). If they fail to get the double turn, they go from being able to likely wipe out a block to not being able to do that.  These are basically the differences between not being able to score enough and being able to stay on the objectives for enough turns to win despite them wrecking your army.

Frankly, if your opponent is playing one of these long ranged gunline lists and elects to take the first turn in order to kill the Necromancer you are getting an even better outcome. You're really most afraid of the double turn. By taking the first turn they are basically agreeing to never have a double turn unless they give you a guaranteed double turn first in order to have a 50/50 shot of getting one themselves later. I'd GLADLY pay 100 points in these matchups to not have to worry about getting double turned.

All that being said, if you aren't prepping for a tournament where you expect to see this kind of opposition then feel free to not take a balewind. I think it's a nice tactical addition but it's not even close to mandatory.

[swarmofseals]

29 minutes ago, BURF1 said:

So, my own version of the LoB double Dragon list:

Definitely excited to try some variation of this myself. If you find yourself wishing you had some more points one thing to consider would be dropping the VLoZD for a Coven Throne. Yes it wouldn't be a double dragon list anymore, but the CT command ability is disgusting with Vhordrai. 

I totally agree about the Mortis Engine, especially in Legion of Blood. Hey... you know what you could do with that extra 180 points....

[grungolah]

Nevermind, went cross eyed for a minute.

[Xasz]

2 minutes ago, grungolah said:

Just got the book, and the first thing that popped out at me was in the Soulblight allegiance.   The Black Knights become battleline for Soulblight allegiance, but do not have the keyword.  Do they GET the keyword?    I no longer have access to the old warscroll to see if this is an old or new question.

 

Blood Knights become battleline and they already have the Soulblight keyword.