Keldaur Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 10 minutes ago, Charles said: That’s a little subjective, the sorcerer can be counted normally. A Khorne player would like only need the Skull Cannon to counter the Balewind. It's not subjective. You invest 220 points for a gaunt summoner on a balewind vortex, and it can die to someone who sneezes at it in the shooting phase. And the khorne lists that suffer the most against it just double down on number models because it is more efficient, but that doesn't make it an impossible (or even uphill) battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 1 minute ago, Arkiham said: Double the points ? Summoner on balewind is..240 points. A skull cannon is 180. If kroak that's 640? Still 2 skullcannons will kill him at 360, or 540 is 3... As explained above the Wizards can be handled by any unit. The shooting is only required for the Balewind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keldaur Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Just now, Charles said: As explained above the Wizards can be handled by any unit. The shooting is only required for the Balewind. Most wizards must be handled by shooting or magic. That's how the game works since you can screen them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 1 minute ago, Keldaur said: It's not subjective. You invest 220 points for a gaunt summoner on a balewind vortex, and it can die to someone who sneezes at it in the shooting phase. And the khorne lists that suffer the most against it just double down on number models because it is more efficient, but that doesn't make it an impossible (or even uphill) battle. It is, because you don’t have to have shooting to defeat a gaunt summoner. You only require the shooting for the 100 point BW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 We're at risk of theory crafting here and what looks good on paper isn't good in practice. Skull Cannon *could* kill a 5 wound model on top in one hit - something like a 22% chance? If you make average rolls, it'll take two turns to kill a normal wizard on a balewind (assuming they have a normal armour save), going on the statistics (I truly loath mathhammer) it'll take 5 turns. Realistically though how much is that going to harm the army overall - the most damage it's ever going to do in one turn is 16 (a bit more if you buff the melee attacks) - compare that to the fact it's the same cost with a unit of Skullreapers or Wrathmongers. It's also got a 30" range, so you've immediately put it 6" within range of the balewind so it's not a magic solution to the handful of times you face a balewind. The fact we don't see the Skullcannon in every Khorne list speaks volumes about it's overall performance. I still stand by my statement that telling people to change their list to counter one model means that one model needs looking at. Also let's try and keep this friendly Khorne is just one example of an army that struggles with the balewind - there are others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Just now, Keldaur said: Most wizards must be handled by shooting or magic. That's how the game works since you can screen them. In order to to that you have to play tactically and there are multiple solutions to that defence. RuneBrush is correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keldaur Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 You don't take a skull cannon. It's simply not good for its cost for that purpose. You can just take more models. You are using an example (khorne) who actually has little problems with balewind now if built right, because you can pretty much ignore him and tithe his spells. Edit - Nope, RuneBrush is completely incorrect If he stands by "you should be able to play whatever list" which is what he has said if he doesn't want to adapt, it is completely untrue and it is also said hyperbolizing the importance balewind vortex has in any regular game. Aslo Charles, your last response doesn't make sense at all, if you are getting wizards at melee before they had impact in the game, your opponent has made several mistakes he should had not done. Where do we stop ? Is the bloodsecrator too good since i have a full melee army and i "can't deal with it" ? Who has a bigger impact balewind or bloodsecrator ? Should we ban the bloodsecrator since it forces my melee army to have some ways to snipe characters ? The argument "one model should not force me to change some stuff in my list" is complete nonsense, that's the whole point of optimization and metagaming, to take into account all this little synergies and possibilities in list buildings opponents might have. PS - I play Khorne. And yes, i had repeated nonsense too many times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitch of Izalith Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Every Khorne player knows that skull cannons rarely manage to hit and wound things - let alone when they really need to... 160 points for a 1 dice weapon is too much to even think about taking them unless you bulid a list around them. Which is not most peoples idea of how Khorne should play. What about FEC how do they shoot it? I like the IDEA of the balewind but not how it effects the game. It just makes really powerful things even more powerful. I don't think it should be banned but 2 small changes to the scroll would be good. You should be able to unbind it in ANY of your heroe phases - not just when its cast. You should be able to attack the wizard on top with flying units. Afterall if the vortex extended above the platform it would blow the wizard off the top too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yeled Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 41 minutes ago, Twitch of Izalith said: Every Khorne player knows that skull cannons rarely manage to hit and wound things - let alone when they really need to... 160 points for a 1 dice weapon is too much to even think about taking them unless you bulid a list around them. Which is not most peoples idea of how Khorne should play. What about FEC how do they shoot it? I like the IDEA of the balewind but not how it effects the game. It just makes really powerful things even more powerful. I don't think it should be banned but 2 small changes to the scroll would be good. You should be able to unbind it in ANY of your heroe phases - not just when its cast. You should be able to attack the wizard on top with flying units. Afterall if the vortex extended above the platform it would blow the wizard off the top too... Those are excellent suggestions. I especially love the idea of being able to unbind it in any phase. That would basically solve the issue, though I'd argue you'd have to rethink its points cost or allow it to be re-summoned for reduced cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 1 minute ago, Yeled said: Those are excellent suggestions. I especially love the idea of being able to unbind it in any phase. That would basically solve the issue, though I'd argue you'd have to rethink its points cost or allow it to be re-summoned for reduced cost. Except it doesn't solve the problem for the two main armies crying about it. Khorne and ironjawz. Both would require the priest or wizard in range. Which would die. So they'll still be crying about it rather than adapting their lists Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 42 minutes ago, Keldaur said: Edit - Nope, RuneBrush is completely incorrect If he stands by "you should be able to play whatever list" which is what he has said if he doesn't want to adapt, it is completely untrue and it is also said hyperbolizing the importance balewind vortex has in any regular game. At what point have I said "you should be able to play whatever list"? I haven't said that and that's not what I'm driving at and neither I believe is @Charles. My point is that we're on page two of (not the first) a discussion about a single model of 100 points. You're right in saying "playing whatever list" is incorrect - but that's what you've read between the lines and not what I have said. Most of us tweak our lists following a game, units we weren't happy with get popped to one side (or put on the shelf of shame) and replaced with something else, that's part of the fun of the game, building an army that suits your own playstyle and improves the game for both you and your opponent. The Balewind requires a really specific counter which some armies just don't have easy or efficient access to - to tell players to change their list to permanently include those counters in my opinion suggests that the balewind needs looking at. I'd say that's not adapting either, adapting would be following the subtle shift in games you've played recently and tweaking your list. 2 minutes ago, Arkiham said: Except it doesn't solve the problem for the two main armies crying about it. Khorne and ironjawz. Both would require the priest or wizard in range. Which would die. So they'll still be crying about it rather than adapting their lists Really...? No crying going on here, just airing our own personal opinions/experiences here that certain bits of the balewind don't provide an enjoyable game experience for both parties. Our opinions clearly differ on this - that's cool, but on this page I've been told I'm incorrect and now told I'm crying about things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keldaur Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 The problem is that you think that you need to change your list to deal with it, which is something khorne explicitly does not need. Neither any army if built properly. If you are not saying that you can't play whatever list, then i don't understand why you are saying that you have to adapt your list to one model as something relevant. It is simple, if you were building a list you should had already taken balewind and a myriad of options into account in the listbuilding proccess. The posts i am reading are just having a fixation on balewind specifically (that's why i used the bloodsecrator as an example, but there are plenty of others examples, like battlesmiths, and the like which can't be dealt with withouth proper sniping tools and have potentially gamechanging reach, most of the time bigger than a balewind sorcerer itself for its cost). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 13 minutes ago, Keldaur said: The problem is that you think that you need to change your list to deal with it, which is something khorne explicitly does not need. Neither any army if built properly. If you are not saying that you can't play whatever list, then i don't understand why you are saying that you have to adapt your list to one model as something relevant. It is simple, if you were building a list you should had already taken balewind and a myriad of options into account in the listbuilding proccess. The posts i am reading are just having a fixation on balewind specifically (that's why i used the bloodsecrator as an example, but there are plenty of others examples, like battlesmiths, and the like which can't be dealt with withouth proper sniping tools and have potentially gamechanging reach, most of the time bigger than a balewind sorcerer itself for its cost). Erm, the topic is about the balewind, that's why we're all fixated on talking about it Personally I have adapted my army a bit to cater for magic, this won't help if I go against a balewind area of effect based army, but does provide utility overall - this adaptation was a direct result of one particularly unenjoyable experience against a sylvaneth balewind. However I do feel the balewind itself does need some tweaks to ensure that all players have an enjoyable experience - that's my driving force for any changes, both my opponent and I need to have an enjoyable game, regardless of the outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keldaur Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Yes, and that's why i am calling out people for creating and continue to discuss on a thread meant to bash the Balewind specifically withouth any nuance. And what is enjoyable for you and your group doesn't translate to every gaming group, so while it is fine you voice your opinion, it is good you keep it as such rather than as factual which completely ignores the people who don't mind or think having stuff like balewind is good for listbuilding and enjoyable games, specially if you do it with arguments that are void of merit (like having to adapt your list to X model when designing a list, that's pretty much 101 list building). At the end, balance isn't a thing where you can fixate into single things, you need to look at the broader picture and what impact it is having and what the current GHB iteration benefits from its existence, and i would say that Balewind is on a good spot right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 But their is moaning about it. There's been consistent moaning about it since everyone realised it was good. Even after the point addtion and nerf..s! It's always "certain armies can't deal with it unless they take so and so " well, take so and so.. There's even allies now to allow you to take more stuff to make it even easier. It's fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aginor Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 12 hours ago, Sigwarus said: I think it's unbalanced at its current cost. Hopefully it goes up. It's such a no-brainer for seraphon and tzeentch. At least the latter will stay competitive without it. In our area we have banned it at tournaments and it works great. Sooooo any Seraphon players in your area? EDIT Further thoughts: Seraphon have, like, two competitive lists: Kroaknado and Thunderquake. Without the BWV one of them (the better one) is basically dead. Tzeentch can live without the Balewind very well. Kroaknado lists require 800 points (Kroak, Astrolith and the BWV) to really work. That's really expensive. I fail to see how those are OP although I see the following problem: if you change your IJ army to include BS archers to counter it, your army becomes SO much worse against other armies that you probably can just go home instead of playing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitch of Izalith Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 If something is "auto include" outside of battleline it usually means its too powerful for its points cost or that the rules are slightly broken. Also a unit can be taken by anyone that benefits some armies more than others is fundamentally against the balancing mechanic of the game - i.e. the points values. Army selection should be focused on your playstyle + your army strengths + competing in as many phases of the game as you can + competing in all the battleplans. One 100 point piece of scenery should not be influencing list building accross the entire game in my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 3 hours ago, RuneBrush said: Really...? No crying going on here, just airing our own personal opinions/experiences here that certain bits of the balewind don't provide an enjoyable game experience for both parties. Our opinions clearly differ on this - that's cool, but on this page I've been told I'm incorrect and now told I'm crying about things. Unfortunately name calling, mocking and deliberately misquoting are the go to comments of people with unjustifiable positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gotrek Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Khorne doesnt need skull cannons for the balewind, slaughter priests will do the job (which you should be including anyway since the buffs they bring are strong you cant very well call it a tax). Furthermore, neither kroak nor the gaunt summoner can spike down a priest in 1 turn (kroak dealing d3 and the summoner dealing 1 compared to the priests d6). FEC can magic the offending wizards off the board and use the zombie dragons breath weapon. If you plan for the balewind you can beat it. If you go to a GT with no plan to deal with a balewind, thats on you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myzyrael Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 47 minutes ago, Gotrek said: (kroak dealing d3 and the summoner dealing 1 compared to the priests d6). I‘m a Tzeentch player and we have a Seraphon player that uses Kroaknado relatively often. You can do very awful and nasty stuff with this vortex and there are armies out there that have a too hard time going against it. We both have seen the devastating effect of this thing to be really concerned about it’s impact. I don’t think you have to remove it from the game altogether but can definetly see why some tournaments are banning it. In fact, I don’t like what it does to the game overall. As tzeentch you already have access to very powerful magic and the gaunt summoner can easily delete any horde unit the enemy has while being relatively save with treacherous bond. The changeling can extend the range of your most powerful mage (the bird) to dish out 6mw average with little fear of miscast (+2, reroll 1s), summon a Herold for 120 and you have 6+2xd6 mw with 36“ range turn one, kroak will Deal d3 do 3-6 units plus d3 to all in range plus d3... I feel like there should be a punishment for taking the vortex, maybe d3 mw to the mage each round that can’t be saved or transferred, maybe the guy on top has to roll each round and in 1/3 of times he is so baffled by all the magic around him that he cannot do anything or whatever... Make it less controllable, that’s my suggestion. Yoi don’t have to remove it completely but it has to have a downside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chord Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 I do like the idea of flying units being able to hit it. That seems like a fair compromise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riavan Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 3 hours ago, Twitch of Izalith said: If something is "auto include" outside of battleline it usually means its too powerful for its points cost or that the rules are slightly broken. Also a unit can be taken by anyone that benefits some armies more than others is fundamentally against the balancing mechanic of the game - i.e. the points values. Army selection should be focused on your playstyle + your army strengths + competing in as many phases of the game as you can + competing in all the battleplans. One 100 point piece of scenery should not be influencing list building accross the entire game in my opinion Sums up my thoughts nicely. If armies like seraphon struggle without it then they have other issues that need fixing. Tzeentch is already overpowered and doesn't need it to stay relevant in the meta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigwarus Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Well I play tzeentch and not khorne or Iron Jaws. I just think that the vortex is an unbalanced piece. All armies have access to it but a few benefits a lot more than the others. As a tzeentch player I don't need this to win. But sure let the seraphon have it. Frankly I think the vortex is a fluff choice for narrative play and nothing for the competitive invironment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firebat Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 2 hours ago, Gotrek said: If you plan for the balewind you can beat it. If you go to a GT with no plan to deal with a balewind, thats on you That's missing the point somewhat and pretty much just adds to the argument that it's OP. As far as I can think of there is nothing else in the game that is completely immune if you haven't included certain things in your army. There might be stuff that is harder to deal with that requires you to play a lot better or perhaps just being lucky but everything can be killed, which is why arguments comparing it to hordes or mortal wounds don't actually work. I don't mind things being hard to deal with for certain armies but if any single unit has such an effect where everyone has to take it into account when making any list and it forces specific choices all that does is reinforce list homogenization and makes the game boring. Some of the suggestions to deal with it don't hold any weight for me either because they seem to rely on one model to take it out and ignores the bonus to range the BV gives and the entire rest of the army that are going to be on the look out to counter your limited threats. Personally I think either it should be killable (or inflicting x wounds banishes it) or it should be more of a commitment to placing it. The rule saying it doesn't count as a spell the wizard has cast has always felt odd to me given it doesn't allow you to cast an extra spell and you'd think it would be a commitment summoning something that boosts your power so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelmaster Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 To decide if something is overpowered, look at how it affects the Nash Equilibrium of the game vs. how it's designed to affect the NE of the game. For instance, any option that winds up being an "auto include" is fine if it's designed to be an "auto include", but not if it's only supposed to show up maybe 5% of the time. The most broken option would be an auto-include in every army, yet would clearly not be intended to show up in every army. Those types are thankfully rare. The majority of "broken" options, though, only actually show up in about 33% of armies (but are intended to show up in a lot less). Like playing rock-paper-scissors, the armies that make up the meta-game can be divided into "X", "counter-X", or "counter-counter-X" (where counter-counter-X loses to X). Once there are roughly a third of each, a stable NE is reached. Again, this is fine if it's how the game is intended to play — but not if the option in question is warping the meta-game into something the designers never intended, something that isn't fun to play. Whether or not "counter-X" armies exist isn't the issue — the issue is whether the option reduces the game to a simple rock-paper-scissors. There's pretty much no better indicator of a "broken" option, than one that reduces the game to a rock-paper-scissors trio, with the option itself (or variants of it) making up one of the three. So yes, I think the Balewind Vortex is bad for the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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