Old World lore

[Trout]

Was the Old World static? Or did the story ever advance? For example, as long as I've known of Warhammer, Karl Franz has always been emperor. Was there a Warhammer edition during which there was another emperor or a war of succession or anything like that? Was there any advancement in the plot prior to the world being blown up?

[Killax]

Not so much static, very slowely the story advanced. It did have more history added, due to model ranges uses for multiple editions the same models had the same tasks since 6th edition, before that there was less lore and more characters where up to the player to create.

Basically since Black Libery was created the lore of Warhammer went much deeper as it did before that. Logical also because the initial editions of WFB where much more RPG like, with narrative of settings but less specific battles.

[Trout]

18 minutes ago, Killax said:

Not so much static, very slowely the story advanced. It did have more history added, due to model ranges uses for multiple editions the same models had the same tasks since 6th edition, before that there was less lore and more characters where up to the player to create.

Basically since Black Libery was created the lore of Warhammer went much deeper as it did before that. Logical also because the initial editions of WFB where much more RPG like, with narrative of settings but less specific battles.

I understand that more backstory was added, but from a game perspective there was no time during which Karl Franz wasn't emperor, there was no war of succession, no major city ever fell, no major character ever died, etc? Or was there a real advancement at any point?

[Killax]

16 minutes ago, Trout said:

I understand that more backstory was added, but from a game perspective there was no time during which Karl Franz wasn't emperor, there was no war of succession, no major city ever fell, no major character ever died, etc? Or was there a real advancement at any point?

Well there was but it wasnt until 4th edition that the game really got big, also as in a big army game as opposed to a skirmish. Karl Franz was Emperor the whole way around. Wars where held, some cities where lost but nothing too drastical actually.  Storm of Chaos in 6th ed was an advancement but not too big either. Lore did drastically change/recton for some Armies, such as Lizardmen but other than that just not too much. Keep in mind though covering stuff in those times was a lot slower as AoS. Two books a year per system was a long norm. 

[Aegisgrimm]

Mordheim as a skirmish setting was also several hundred years before the time period that WHFB took place.

The Old World was more of a setting than a storyline, but really was static enough that only fluff elements would change if gamers wanted to play within about a 500 year span of the Old, as all the armies stayed in relatively the same state, as well as most locations.  

[someone2040]

There were very few significant events that 'progressed' during the older editions of Warhammer. I'm more familiar with 6th edition onwards.

So the significant events that contributed into the army books and the like:

Albion

Storm of Chaos (retconned for the most part in 8th ed)

pre-End times lead up

End Times

I  can't remember if the Nemesis Crown stuff ever made it into the proper fluff (i.e army book fluff), but I don't seem to think it did (Although I am not that familiar with the 8th edition fluff for all armies).

There were historical supplements also that detailed out particular historical wars. Such as the War of the Beards, Lustria (Between the Hosts of Sotek and Clans Pestilens) and a few others. Mordheim obviously detailed fighting within Mordheim while a particular notable historical Old World event was ongoing (War of the 3 Emporer's).

 

The most significant plot altering event was of course, the End Times, which basically progressed the narrative forwards over the course of a year. Very similar to how the Realmgate Wars played out.

 

So yeah, you can basically say, for the most part, the old world fluff was pretty static. Karl Franz is Emporer, Chaos threatens to sweep in from the North and invade, Beastmen stage attacks from the Forests, Orcs and Goblin Waaagh's threaten from the Badlands, yadda yadda yadda.

[Menkeroth]

True. It was static, which is not necessary a bad thing but when the world is too small and the rival factions are too many, it's not good. The Empire was besieged from all sides by vampires, greenskins, Chaos, skaven... and yet endured and all was status quo. Even if the skaven wipe out the 3/4 of the whole population by the plague, it stands still. Very dull.

[Killax]

Thing is it was also static for a reason. It's interesting to see how GW works now from a perspective that also has seen the days where a monthly release was allready a lot! With this I mean that I also feel that the Warhammer Fantasy (and 40k) lore for a mighty long time was kept static because the many of the model releases couldn't otherwise keep up with the product progression. With this I mean that it's much easier to write things down and have it be cannon as it is to actually make that narrative reality with a figure. Much more has to happen and GW always did create many different things at the same time which in turn mend some whole armies never recieved an actual update in the end (such as Brettonia).
The prime reason as to why Specialist Games was initially let go was to focus more on their core products. The prime reason why WFB was let go was to focus on a new game that hopefully would grab more fans (which it does now). 

One of the things that WFB lore does have is that it's often more relatable as the AOS lore, by large because a lot of WFB lore was inspired by history and historical events. It's completely true that many armies where heavily fantasy influenced but WFB was unique in the sence that certain armies where more historically correct and inspired as others. For example Empire and Brettonia didn't nearly have the high fantasy aspects of Chaos Daemons or Lizardmen. 

Because of that historical touch certain campaigns where also very cool. Such as the exploration into Lustria, a smaller campaign as Storm of Chaos but it did make a lot of sence for the Empire to search for the city of gold. Albion was like this too and actually contained parts that allowed for the Storm of Chaos set up to begin in 6th. As mentioned a lot of things where rectonned in 8th's Storm of Chaos/End Times but to me it was a good end to a game, because ending a game is never going to get pretty.

So all in all I can't say I was bothered by WFB's static lore because I am not bothered by it for 40K nor AoS either, fully knowing there there are always parties who dislike the "illogical" progression of lore. A setting isn't judged on it's progression or static lore, it's judged on the way it allows the player or reader to immerse in the world. Because WFB was very much historically influenced this was actually very easy to do. In that same vein Malifaux and The Other Side have some fantastic lore also as it's completely based on an alternate timeline earth. 

 

[Double Misfire]

13 hours ago, Trout said:

Was the Old World static? Or did the story ever advance? For example, as long as I've known of Warhammer, Karl Franz has always been emperor. Was there a Warhammer edition during which there was another emperor or a war of succession or anything like that? Was there any advancement in the plot prior to the world being blown up?

Hi @Trout. It's really awesome that you have a Volkmar avatar and are asking about WFB background advancing.  

The old WFB setting advanced in fits and starts and at nowhere near the pace AoS has. When the setting was developed into the one most familiar with modern gamers at the beginning of 4th edition with the first army books the intention was for the Warhammer Word's history to be so fleshed out that most games could be comfortably set in the "past", with all the army books featuring massive timelines and having large sections dedicated to "historical" conflicts like the War of Vengeance (War of the Beard if you're an elf), the Great War Against Chaos and Waaagh! Gorbad, as well GW producing models and rules for long dead special characters like Azhag the Slaughterer and Vlad and Isabella von Carstein. It wasn't so much that the "modern" setting was  ever static, just that the emphasis was never on it.

This continued through 5th edition with the release of several army specific campaign boxes, most of which were set way back in the setting's past - Grudge of Drong featured possibly the first open conflict between Dwarfs and Elves and was set over 2000 years before the founding of the Empire! The onl y vaguely notable advancement in 5th edition was Archaon turning up in Champions of Chaos as one of many new Chaos special characters; back then he was just an undivided Chaos Lord collecting treasures on a quest to destroy the world that nobody thought would ever happen.

When the 6h editon of Warhammer rolled out in 2000 the design team had a major change in background policy, focusing entirely on the "present day" Warhammer World, with all historical special characters disappearing from  army books*  and the timeline slowly inching forward in army books and White Dwarf articles. In the 6th ed Empire book, the second army book released for 6th edition a new Supreme Patriarch was introduced, Luthor Huss turned up for the first time (though at this point fairly purposeless and not looking for Valten yet), and the Elector Count Marius Leitdorf, a fan favourite special character was killed by an orc warboss at a new battle for Blackfire Pass. GW continued to slowly up the ante advancing the background, with the Dark Shadows/Albion worldwide campaign properly introducing Be'lakor and expanding on the historical background first set up in Mordhiem, the sacking of Miragliano by Skaven in White Dwarf 266 and Eltharion's capture and having his eyes removed by Malekith in the Dark Elf army book and path to rehabilitation in the High Elf book being the most notable.

It was when Hordes of Chaos, the "main" Chaos army book for 6th edition hit that the background advancement at the time really went into overdrive. Hordes of Chaos and the White Dwarf articles from it's release onwards made Archaon having been crowned Everchosen and ill portents predicting the largest Chaos invasion of the Old World since the Great War against Chaos. In Hordes of Chaos's debut battle report Volkmar the Grim,  the Grand Theogonist (pope) of the Empire lead a hastily assembled crusading army north to nip the invasion in the bud and kill Archaon before he marshalled a large enough army; needless to say they failed, with Volkmar brutally slain and replaced by Johan Esmer, a new Grand Theognist, more concerned with protecting the Sigmarite clergy's wealth than fiery oratory or rallying against a future Chaos invasion.

From here almost every subsequent army book and White Dwarf background article, and even several Black Library novels and the excellent Liber Chaotica series of coffee table background books focusing on the buildup to the Storm of Chaos worldwide campaign. This even included miniature releases with Crom the Conquerer making his debut, Be'lakor freeing himself from being crazy for long enough to get a model and Valten getting  several models. When Storm of Chaos eventually did hit in  2004 the campaign focused on Archaon's horde fighting their way through the Empire sack to Middenhiem and snuff out the Flame of Ulric, dooming the Old World to eternal winter, with several side conflicts (Dark Elves vs Lizardmen) unfolding in different parts of the Warhammer World so the armies not based in the Old World could feel like they counted take part. When the campaign results came in the playerbase obviously liked the setting enough that they didn't want to see it destroyed, with Archaon never technically making it to the walls of Middenhiem on the map based on player results and GW having to fudge the results to get him there in the last couple of weeks, and Crom the Conqueror never making it to the Empire through Sylvania.

From pretty much the White Dwarf article concluding the events of Storm of Chaos based on the player results onwards GW seemed to have taken another 180 turn in the background, with the status quo being quickly reset. Archaon had been beaten up by an orc and run off up north, dignity intact to plot his revenge; Valten was killed in his bed shortly after the the Chaos forces were routed by an ambiguously paid skaven assassin and Karl Franz took Ghal Maraz back and continued to rule the Empire; Mannfred von Carstien was told to ****** off by a recently resurrected (don't ask) Volkmar, who in the next Empire army book proceeded to take his old job back after Johan Esmer lined his pockets with the church treasury and fled to Marienburg; Garagrim Ironfist was heroically slain after a chaos giant fell on him, finally ending the Kings' of Karak Kadrin's slayer oath for good, only for Ungrim Ironfist to retake the slayer vow out of shame at his son having been killed instead of him. From here subsequent army books and White Dwarf articles had an emphasis on expanding the world, not advancing it, most notably with the release of the first Ogre Kingdoms army book in 2005, expanding a previously pretty minor race in the greater scheme of WFB into it's own distinct army and detailing the lands to the east of the Old World not involving Chaos Dwarfs for the first time.

The second edition of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, debuting in 2005 was  distinctly set in the post Storm of Chaos world, with the emphasis of the setting any most of the adventure modules released for it being on the Empire as it recovered from Archaon's invasion. The 7th edition Warhammer army books initially paid lip service the events of the Storm of Chaos and the background advances in 6th as having happened, with the Empire book released in 2006 in particular keeping Marius Leitdorf dead, dedicating a couple of pages to the Storm of Chaos and the events leading up to it, and Volkmar and Luthor Huss' special character entries acknowledging how the events of the campaign had affected them. As 7th edition rolled on however later army books began rewinding the clock on the storyline advancements of 6th, with 2007's High Elves featuring Eltharion with 20/20 vision riding Stormwing and carrying all his old wargear, with no mention of his blinding and retraining; and 2008's Warriors of Chaos only bringing Archaon's story up to his coronation by Be'lakor (though it was accompanied by the reused Storm of Chaos cover art of him fighting Valten so who knows).

One interesting footnote is that when Warhammer Forge (Forge World's short lived dedicated WFB division) initially launched in 2011 it was helmed by no less than Rick Priestly, who appearing at Games Day 2011 set out his plans to tell an alternate story chronically the end of the Warhammer World at the hands of the Chaos Gods, with all the Elector Counts being slain and the Elder of the Moot being named defacto Emperor, Karl Franz's illegitimate son being a dark wizard and all kinds of crazy stuff. Rick Priestly left GW shortly the announcement and the models designed for this grand alternate setting were repurposed and released for what because the Tamurkhan book. Details on this campaign are hazy and I wasn't heavily involved in the hobby when it happened, so if you know anything about it or even spoke to Rick Priestly at Games Day, please please hit me up with more info.

8th edition began by continuing 7th's trend, with the 8th ed Empire army book having no mention of Vaten, the Storm of Chaos,  or Volkmar possibly having been resurrected by a daemon to be found (Marius Lietdorf was still dead though so there's that!), but as the edition crept forwards steps to start advancing the narrative began again (though from a pre most of 6th edition/Storm of Chaos fresh start) these happened slowly at first, and seemed to focus on Nagash and the undead, with Arkhan the Black turning up and being up to no good in the Tomb Kings book, and a convoluted storyline  involving Mannfred von Carstein kidnapping the Everqueen's daughter carried through the Vampire Counts, High Elf and Dwarf books. This had many people speculating about the return of Nagash, as a lot of folk had originally assumed that the Warhammer's premiere silver medal arch-villain would get "his turn" at a global campaign after Storm of Chaos. A few Black Library books towards the end of 8th started slowly pushing the plot forward too, with Thorgrim seeing Gorfang Rotgut finally ousted from Black Crag and slain (though not at the hands of King Kazador).

Things started kicking into high gear for the 8th ed background with the release of Sigmar's Blood, a old school style campaign supplement with it's own tie in novel by Phil Kelly, which saw Volkmar ride out into Sylvania, not the Chaos Wastes this to stop Mannfred von Carstein before he could pull off something truly terrible, only to get captured by Mannfred and find out he'd deliberately been lured there to be sacrificed in some horrifying ritual all along (poor guy just can't catch a break in these things); and Wood Elves, 8th's final armybook, a large part of which's background was dedicated to a Bretonnia being consumed by a brutal civil war (Bretonnia not having revived a new army book since way back before Storm of Chaos!), with Louen Leoncour's rumoured vampire ****** son (a previously very obscure character who'd only ever appeared in a WFRP2 adventure module), leading half the kingdom and backed by the undead, intent on claiming his father's crown.

This of course lead directly into The End Times, a year long series of glossy, excellently edited  harback booksets chronicling what most people didn't realise to begin with would be the destruction of the Warhammer World, They and their tie in novels are very nice books and manage to tie together a lovely scope of favourites from all over Warhammer History, from Genevieve to King Kazador in a suitably bloody farewell to the setting. Many elements from the Storm of Chaos (Valten, Crom, the Flame of Ulric, Garagrim Ironfist) were reused and incorporated into the story. Josh Reynold's End Times: Archaon tie-in novel, the excellent Lord of the End Times in particular went out of it's way to tie up several of the fates of the more obscure WFB characters and is well worth checking out (if you ever wanted to know what happened to Valnir the Reaper then this is the novel for you!).

 

Blimey, that turned into a much longer post about the role of Warhammer's timeline than I'd ever planned on! I hope it's of some use to you, please let me know if you have any specific questions.  

 

 

*With the exception of Gorthor, who nobody had cared about enough to realise he was historical character when writing Beasts of Chaos (true story!); and of course Tzar Boris who rode a bear and was far too cool a character not to make a model of for the Kislev mini army book. Tzar Boris!

Spoiler

 

[Double Misfire]

11 hours ago, Killax said:

Well there was but it wasnt until 4th edition that the game really got big, also as in a big army game as opposed to a skirmish. Karl Franz was Emperor the whole way around. Wars where held, some cities where lost but nothing too drastical actually.  Storm of Chaos in 6th ed was an advancement but not too big either. Lore did drastically change/recton for some Armies, such as Lizardmen but other than that just not too much. Keep in mind though covering stuff in those times was a lot slower as AoS. Two books a year per system was a long norm. 

Oh boy, Killax thread! Behind the spoiler is one of the armies from the Thistlewood scenario for the first edition of Warhammer appearing in White Dwarf 45. It contains three different amounts of figures for each regiment for three different engagement levels. At the lowest engagement level (ironically described as "Skirmish Level", though not close to the Necromunda/Morheim 12 models a side modern gaming would categorise a skirmish at) this force contains 96 models, including two (for the time) large monsters. Almost twice as many models as a lot of 2000 point 8th edition and AoS armies. You might have WFB confused with Rogue Trader, which did start out as a narrative focused skirmish game.

Spoiler

 

[Killax]

Uh yes there are always scenario's of epic proportions, which do not represent a regular game at all.
However perhaps you play every AoS game with Nagash vs Archaon as the scenario in Everchosen suggests? I most certainly don't.

A typical 8th edition army had 50-100 models, it largely depends per faction and it still does in AoS.
2K AoS models now easily lead you to 100+ models if you want to...

[Chris Tomlin]

Fantastic post @Double Misfire! That was a fun trip down memory lane. Seems like we have taken similar journeys through Warhammer.

[Double Misfire]

39 minutes ago, Killax said:

Uh yes there are always scenario's of epic proportions, which do not represent a regular game at all.

See:

1 hour ago, Double Misfire said:

At the lowest engagement level (ironically described as "Skirmish Level", though not close to the Necromunda/Morheim 12 models a side modern gaming would categorise a skirmish at) this force contains 96 models, including two (for the time) large monsters.

Also, I've just unboxed and skimmed through my copy of the 1st edition Warhammer supplement Forces of Fantasy that contained the game's first army lists (scans behind the spoiler tag are not mine):

Spoiler

Forces of Fantasy recommends taking an army of three battalions, each battalion consisting of 1000 points of models. I've navigated the archaic art of 1980s list building to make a sample battalion of Men of the West (think proto Empire/Bretonnia, or proto proto Freeguild if you prefer ) featuring a  hero, a very expensive wizard and a balanced spread of unit types hidden behind the next spoiler tag:

Spoiler

men of the west

hero, magic item, lance, plate armour, shield, warhorse, barding (75.5)

acolyte (level 2) wizard, magic item (342)

5 knights including champion, lances, plate armour, shields, warhorses, barding (57.5)

20 crossbowmen, crossbows, standard bearer (240)

27 pesants, spears, standard bearer, musican (285)

exactly 1000 points

The battalion comes to 54 models. I haven't got the time/energy to sit down with a calculator and rattle out two more battalions, but assuming I'd duplicated the first one twice I'd be looking at 162 models at the recommended game size.  

 

1 hour ago, Killax said:

A typical 8th edition army had 50-100 models, it largely depends per faction and it still does in AoS.
2K AoS models now easily lead you to 100+ models if you want to...

 

2 hours ago, Double Misfire said:

Almost twice as many models as a lot of 2000 point 8th edition and AoS armies. 

I don't see your point.

[Killax]

10 minutes ago, Double Misfire said:

See:

Also, I've just unboxed and skimmed through my copy of the 1st edition Warhammer supplement Forces of Fantasy that contained the game's first army lists (scans behind the spoiler tag are not mine):

  Reveal hidden contents

Forces of Fantasy recommends taking an army of three battalions, each battalion consisting of 1000 points of models. I've navigated the archaic art of 1980s list building to make a sample battalion of Men of the West (think proto Empire/Bretonnia, or proto proto Freeguild if you prefer ) featuring a  hero, a very expensive wizard and a balanced spread of unit types hidden behind the next spoiler tag:

  Reveal hidden contents

men of the west

hero, magic item, lance, plate armour, shield, warhorse, barding (75.5)

acolyte (level 2) wizard, magic item (342)

5 knights including champion, lances, plate armour, shields, warhorses, barding (57.5)

20 crossbowmen, crossbows, standard bearer (240)

27 pesants, spears, standard bearer, musican (285)

exactly 1000 points

The battalion comes to 54 models. I haven't got the time/energy to sit down with a calculator and rattle out two more battalions, but assuming I'd duplicated the first one twice I'd be looking at 162 models at the recommended game size.  

I don't see your point.

I have no clue what you are on about. Guess that's the missfire?

Warhammer 1st through 4th edition was a build up from Heroes, adding multiple models to Heroes to form units. In many cases WFB was known as Herohammer because of that reason. There was little reason to actually obtain that much models because A. It wasn't as easy to collect Warhammer then and B. It wasn't rewarded by the system to actually go and make that effort. It's funny that you say you have "unboxed" your first edition book while you directly downloaded that page from a Russian VK website.

As before suggesting that armies where played "the same" only proves that your onto something which you have not played.  Doesn't matter to me, feel free to act as if you did.

Cheers,

 

[BaldoBeardo]

Friendly warning - don't try and take DM on with anything to do with Warhammer history (fluff or product).

Have a look through his posts.

You won't win.

This guy can recite Solland's annual wool export figures seemingly from memory.

[BaldoBeardo]

4 minutes ago, Killax said:

As before suggesting that armies where played "the same" only proves that your onto something which you have not played.

Oh no you didn't. 

[Killax]

6 minutes ago, BaldoBeardo said:

Friendly warning - don't try and take DM on with anything to do with Warhammer history (fluff or product).

Have a look through his posts.

You won't win.

This guy can recite Solland's annual wool export figures seemingly from memory.

The oddity really is how this also has nothing to do with the initial topic, which is about Warhammer Fantasies Lore.

One of the most interesting parts to see however is that the old WFB lore in many places also had some tie-ins with 40K and while this also dissapeared and was rectonned later on it would be very cool if AoS would continue this design. It's also a whole lot easier to do now as AoS too works with universes instead of one Old World where all battles thake place.

In the end I also think this is why WFB was eventually canceled because a lot of places where allready filled, all kinds of places had some form of narrative and generally the only real armies or lines that could be added to WFB at the end where the possible Albion giants and Cathay warriors. With FW covering Chaos Dwarfs pretty much all the armies that played a massive role for the regular humanity was covered.

All in all I like the open part of AoS lore as it still allows for many more armies to come. As a result I also do not think and hope that GW will map out the universe completely any time soon as the downside of this is that you make it clear to your fanbase where the borders are. While I love my old WFB world map in the end it was a very crowded place as all armies also wanted to have a respectable place of ground to defend and keep.

3 minutes ago, BaldoBeardo said:

Oh no you didn't. 

If we're going into a "see what I can pull from russian websites" topic I'm out anyway.  

 

[BaldoBeardo]

5 minutes ago, Killax said:

The oddity really is how this also has nothing to do with the initial topic, which is about Warhammer Fantasies Lore.
...

If we're going into a "see what I can pull from russian websites" topic I'm out anyway.  

 

You were the one that first raised game sizes.

[Killax]

4 minutes ago, BaldoBeardo said:

You were the one that first raised game sizes.

You mean this part:

Quote

Well there was but it wasnt until 4th edition that the game really got big, also as in a big army game as opposed to a skirmish.

Still stand by what Ive said there. Feel free to look into the rules and costs attached to models for any 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th edition. In addition my post didn't end there, so if we're only reacting to slivers of a post, good luck with it.

[Double Misfire]

15 minutes ago, Killax said:

It's funny that you say you have "unboxed" your first edition book while you directly downloaded that page from a Russian VK website.

As before suggesting that armies where played "the same" only proves that your onto something which you have not played.  Doesn't matter to me, feel free to act as if you did.

 

17 minutes ago, Killax said:

Warhammer 1st through 4th edition was a build up from Heroes, adding multiple models to Heroes to form units. In many cases WFB was known as Herohammer because of that reason.

I've already posted hard evidence to the contrary that like in every thread you've interacted with me in you've chosen to ignore. I wasn't aware of the term Herohammer being popularised until 4th edition and the rise of special character cards though pre internet forums who knows what people called it.

I'm going to bow out of discussing the scale of previous editions of Warhammer in this thread now because it's stretched what was previously an interesting thread about old WFB background into off topic territory. If you want to continue discussing the scale of WFB games pre 4th edition, I'd be delighted to in a new thread.

 

21 minutes ago, BaldoBeardo said:

This guy can recite Solland's annual wool export figures seemingly from memory.

Nil from 1707 to the End Times?  

[Killax]

Good for you, happy to see your not ripping all from the Russian websites! 

If your reacting to parts of my post I see no reason to do differently. Despite some scenario's 1st to 4th was actively played with less models also because several army entries didn't have models upon the release of their books.

The lore in itself though was more stagnent because model releases by comaprison where aswell. Nontheless a lot of popularity in D&D also caused GW to grow immensely, based on that popularity a lot of WFB content was designed for RPGs aswell. Both are what was Warhammer Fantasy. 

[Gaz Taylor]

+++ Mod Hat On +++

There's having heated discussions and then there's being rude. @Killax you are being rude. Please stop it and think more about your replies

 

[BaldoBeardo]

35 minutes ago, Killax said:

Good for you, happy to see your not ripping all from the Russian websites! 

If your reacting to parts of my post I see no reason to do differently. Despite some scenario's 1st to 4th was actively played with less models also because several army entries didn't have models upon the release of their books.

The lore in itself though was more stagnent because model releases by comaprison where aswell. Nontheless a lot of popularity in D&D also caused GW to grow immensely, based on that popularity a lot of WFB content was designed for RPGs aswell. Both are what was Warhammer Fantasy. 

Killax, this is entirely what's happened in this thread in microcosm. You make a statement, it is disproven/refuted, and you either ignore the point, deflect or make out that someone else is derailing/going OT.

Differences of opinion are fine. It's the internet, it's going to happen. But you undermine your own argument if you can't be coherent.

[Ollie Grimwood]

I've still got White Dwarfs with battle reports from the Osprey World championships that used to be held at Gamesday back in 3rd (late 80s early 90s) when I started.  Defo not Herohammer the armies are big they specifically have one with the biggest and smallest they range from about 80 to over 200 minis in size. 

WFB was well static in the end, they kept having large campaigns and the like but nothing really changed, Storm of Chaos was hilariously inconclusive.   Early doors though it was fairly jumpy I remember playing WFRP and Boris Trodbringer and Karl Franz being decrepit old men and then  they're mighty warriors in the prime of their lives.  Still such things happen as a setting solidifies 40K was just as bad. 

[Aegisgrimm]

The Albion campaign was especially interesting, especially when the victors could choose from a table that represented a tongue in cheek cache of 40K technology and weapons as a nod to the early editions of Warhammer, lol.

I always wanted to put together an Empire general with a power fist....