My analysis about Death in GH2017

[deynon]

2 minutes ago, Kugane said:

Well, thats a handbook I'm not buying then haha. Thanks for the info! 

You should buy it anyway: scenarios, rules, points, everything useful. I think it's a must anyway for a player.

[Malakithe]

5 minutes ago, deynon said:

why FEC? They are quite good at the end, they have only to shift compared to before.

 

@Malakithe: deathlords, deathmages, deathwalkers, deathrattles, Nighthaunt

@Kugane: no

Excellent....so I can do a Soulblight list with added skellies

[lare2]

9 minutes ago, Kugane said:

Did they release some Deathrattle rules or at least points?

No real rules as of yet but the points were leaked. Loving the massive regiments... Now I just need to come up with conversations to keep my opponents entertained as I shuffle skellies across the board! 

[AverageBoss]

Soulblight and FEC look a bit more potent. It just means I have to strip my army down to 3-4 models repeated 100 times. I miss having a full undead army with skeletons, zombies, ghosts, ghouls, monsters, and vampires all together, that actually worked. I really dislike the fractured micro forces route GW has broken the army into.

How can some of the undead stuff not even be allied with other undead?

[Rob Hawkins]

1 hour ago, AverageBoss said:

Soulblight and FEC look a bit more potent. It just means I have to strip my army down to 3-4 models repeated 100 times. I miss having a full undead army with skeletons, zombies, ghosts, ghouls, monsters, and vampires all together, that actually worked. I really dislike the fractured micro forces route GW has broken the army into.

How can some of the undead stuff not even be allied with other undead?

Right?  Death is the only "grand" alliance that's made from a single former army, and now it can't even ally with all of itself except under a generic "no bells & whistles" Death alliance.  How come all the Skaven clans get to ally with each other? 

[Rob Hawkins]

Now i know how the Chaos players felt in 6th when the "Chaos army" was split into Warriors, Beastmen, and Daemons, and everyone was left with 1/3 of three different armies. 

[Malakithe]

Mixed or pure FEC is going to be the only viable options still. Nighthaunt, as cool as it is, is just absolutely not viable in any way. And Soulblight suffers from low model counts in a new world of #HordMeta2017. With only 3 heroes each the pool of abilities and spells is very little as well. 

 

[Sedraxis]

1 hour ago, Malakithe said:

Mixed or pure FEC is going to be the only viable options still. Nighthaunt, as cool as it is, is just absolutely not viable in any way. And Soulblight suffers from low model counts in a new world of #HordMeta2017. With only 3 heroes each the pool of abilities and spells is very little as well. 

 

How many games did you play with their new allegiance bonusses and artifacts? Seems a bit early to call everything, especially with all the changes on all fronts. Shooting, our first and foremost problem, got big point cost increases and we've yet to see how scary this hordemeta will be.

[Malakithe]

Shooting wont make a difference when its 5 Blood Knights vs 40 Orruks, or 60 grots, or 30 Tzaangors or 30 of this and that. Vargheists would far even worse. Not enough dmg to deal with Bonsplitters with their 2 wounds each...and even the mighty VLoZD will be grinded down against a unit of newly buffed Vulkite Berzerkers. 

So yeah thats just combat lol  sure shooting took a hit but thats the least of issues now. Thats why it has to be mixed Death. 

[shinros]

I can see what Malakithe is saying in my eyes Death is largely a horde based alliance with strong supporting elites and heroes acting as the hammer and the hordes being the anvil. Cause in the end other alliances and factions do the elite army waaaay better than we can and with the buffs to line infantry our elites would just be ground into dust due to the sheer weight of attacks and the elites not packing enough punch. 

Looking at the new traits I am still going to be running mixed death or FEC to be honest. 

[Dracothjay]

I am a FEC through and through. Looking forward to using my GKoZD now. I do like the GKoTG with his unholy vitality, but now with deathless save only a 6+, the spell from GKoZD is far more attractive, especially with a unit of horrors rerolling failed hits, the feeding frenzy spell rerolling failed wounds. Ouch.

also, a necromancer just became more viable in a FEC list now that we are gonna need better saves. Lets face it, our units are gonna die a lot easier now. FEC are gonna have to be even more super aggressive.

[assfor]

after mornghoul DEATH who is the damage dealer? how you kill save2/3 enemy ?
i'm relly hate the new Death faction, soulblight are a glass cannon, if you fail a charge or enemy charge you, you are Death, fec lost lot of save bonus for a better charge attitude, but why charge with no rend unit? who you gonna kill human footman?

ghost faction is the worst, with mournghoul nerfed they not have a single metod to do damage  

[deynon]

3 minutes ago, assfor said:

after mornghoul DEATH who is the damage dealer? how you kill save2/3 enemy ?
i'm relly hate the new Death faction, soulblight are a glass cannon, if you fail a charge or enemy charge you, you are Death, fec lost lot of save bonus for a better charge attitude, but why charge with no rend unit? who you gonna kill human footman?

ghost faction is the worst, with mournghoul nerfed they not have a single metod to do damage  

it's untrue FEC misses rend units. Yhey are not ghouls ones, but there are...

[assfor]

3 minutes ago, deynon said:

it's untrue FEC misses rend units. Yhey are not ghouls ones, but there are...

sorry mate, my bad, i wanna say "fec not have units with rend/mortal wounds, and take more bonus for charge enemy in this new generals handbook, but why you wanna charge if you not have decent damage dealer?"

[deynon]

1 minute ago, assfor said:

sorry mate, my bad, i wanna say "fec not have units with rend/mortal wounds, and take more bonus for charge enemy in this new generals handbook, but why you wanna charge if you not have decent damage dealer?"

Cause  I have the damge dealers^^ I have the GKoTG/DZ, I hav the Crypt flyers, and I can make in the way that I can attack twice. Even with gohul you can use mass and healing them quite a lot. You have the allies avalaible and there are some tricks avalaible with them.
Moreovere you have to see the delusions, that can make more slid the attacks, even if without rend.

[Malakithe]

For me one of my personal favorite factions has always been Fyreslayers and they got supremely buffed. I now base all my list building on whether or not it can handle the full brunt of 3x30 Vulkites grinding everything to dust. They have 1 wound each but a 5/4+ save then a 4++ save. Then they have 2 attacks each at -1 rend. Thats before the buffs...Vulkite Berzerkers are arguably the best battleline unit in the game. Now all Fyreslayers list will run a Warrior Kinband...when they charge with shields they deal MW on 6s after they charge. Thats 30 dice that can roll 6s. Again...still unbuffed. Buffed they can re-roll armor saves and re-roll wound rolls...then all the new rune bonuses lol anyway....so thats what I personally base  a list on. Whether or not it can even hurt them or outlast them.

Now...on paper I made a super killy VLoZD with the new Soulblight stuff. Problem is he would have no real support. Blood Knights are good but not good enough to deal with mass hordes. No where even close. I was also thinking of ally Deathmages for 2 Mortis Engines to help escort the VLoZD and the 3 of them together might be able to pull off some work while everything else in the list kinda does whatever else..run around, bait, pretend to kill stuff...

 

[swarmofseals]

18 hours ago, Malakithe said:

For me one of my personal favorite factions has always been Fyreslayers and they got supremely buffed. I now base all my list building on whether or not it can handle the full brunt of 3x30 Vulkites grinding everything to dust. They have 1 wound each but a 5/4+ save then a 4++ save. Then they have 2 attacks each at -1 rend. Thats before the buffs...Vulkite Berzerkers are arguably the best battleline unit in the game. Now all Fyreslayers list will run a Warrior Kinband...when they charge with shields they deal MW on 6s after they charge. Thats 30 dice that can roll 6s. Again...still unbuffed. Buffed they can re-roll armor saves and re-roll wound rolls...then all the new rune bonuses lol anyway....so thats what I personally base  a list on. Whether or not it can even hurt them or outlast them.

Now...on paper I made a super killy VLoZD with the new Soulblight stuff. Problem is he would have no real support. Blood Knights are good but not good enough to deal with mass hordes. No where even close. I was also thinking of ally Deathmages for 2 Mortis Engines to help escort the VLoZD and the 3 of them together might be able to pull off some work while everything else in the list kinda does whatever else..run around, bait, pretend to kill stuff...

 

Vulkite Berzerkers are indeed pretty insane in the new GHB, particularly when buffed. Tzaangors are also really scary. I reject the notion that Soulblight doesn't have the tools to break hordes, though. Hordes excel at efficiency, but their weakness is damage concentration. This is particularly true of horde units with a 1" range like the Vulkites. Elite armies like Soulblight have the opposite problem -- they have worse raw efficiency but they can concentrate damage into a smaller area much more easily. 

90 Vulkite Berzerkers is going to take up a lot of space on the table, and there will be opportunities to charge them in such a way that you can enjoy a major advantage in damage concentration. A VLoZD can easily cycle charge vulnerable areas, kill 5-15 vulkites and then retreat. The vulkites won't have enough time to surround him and threaten real damage. Once the numbers on the vulkite units start to drop they die a lot more easily. 

Also remember that while Blood Knights seem like shock cavalry, they are also pretty grindy as well. They heal 3-4 wounds per turn per unit, and without the ability to concentrate damage heavily and wipe out whole units the enemy will struggle against this. The idea that the enemy is going to somehow get 90 vulkites attacking you all at once is a fantasy. It would take a Magical Christmas Land type scenario for them to get even 2/3 of them into range at the same time, and even half is a stretch. I'd guess that it's more likely that they'll be getting 30ish models in range in a more typical situation, and if you are careful you can avoid even that. 

Even if we imagine a crazy scenario -- 45 vulkites in range, rerolling all hit and wound rolls with rend 3 from the enhanced runegold effect -- we're looking at something like 42 unsaved wounds. that's enough to kill 14 blood knights. Realistically though to get that many guys in combat they will need to be distributing that damage across 4-5 units of blood knights, which means most if not all of your banners will survive. I doubt even that scenario will happen much though. The opposite end of the spectrum -- 20 vulkites attacking unbuffed -- aren't even favored to kill one blood knight. 

And keep in mind here that Vulkites are like the perfect storm of bad news. They have rend (Blood Knights laugh at non-rend attacks) AND a huge ward save that is basically guaranteed to be in place when they get charged AND a decent armor save. While vulkite hordes may be popular, most of your opponents probably won't be using them. Most hordes are WAY easier for Blood Knights to deal with. A couple of units of Blood Knights charging can break most big blocks, especially if they don't have inspiring presence (and remember, if they have 3+ big blocks they probably can't inspire all of them). Even if you don't break them, they aren't likely to really threaten your BKs either.

I'm not saying that I expect Soulblight to be competitive, mind, but I think the idea that they just can't beat large masses of cheap infantry just isn't the case.

[Malakithe]

3 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

Vulkite Berzerkers are indeed pretty insane in the new GHB, particularly when buffed. Tzaangors are also really scary. I reject the notion that Soulblight doesn't have the tools to break hordes, though. Hordes excel at efficiency, but their weakness is damage concentration. This is particularly true of horde units with a 1" range like the Vulkites. Elite armies like Soulblight have the opposite problem -- they have worse raw efficiency but they can concentrate damage into a smaller area much more easily. 

90 Vulkite Berzerkers is going to take up a lot of space on the table, and there will be opportunities to charge them in such a way that you can enjoy a major advantage in damage concentration. A VLoZD can easily cycle charge vulnerable areas, kill 5-15 vulkites and then retreat. The vulkites won't have enough time to surround him and threaten real damage. Once the numbers on the vulkite units start to drop they die a lot more easily. 

Also remember that while Blood Knights seem like shock cavalry, they are also pretty grindy as well. They heal 3-4 wounds per turn per unit, and without the ability to concentrate damage heavily and wipe out whole units the enemy will struggle against this. The idea that the enemy is going to somehow get 90 vulkites attacking you all at once is a fantasy. It would take a Magical Christmas Land type scenario for them to get even 2/3 of them into range at the same time, and even half is a stretch. I'd guess that it's more likely that they'll be getting 30ish models in range in a more typical situation, and if you are careful you can avoid even that. 

Even if we imagine a crazy scenario -- 45 vulkites in range, rerolling all hit and wound rolls with rend 3 from the enhanced runegold effect -- we're looking at something like 42 unsaved wounds. that's enough to kill 14 blood knights. Realistically though to get that many guys in combat they will need to be distributing that damage across 4-5 units of blood knights, which means most if not all of your banners will survive. I doubt even that scenario will happen much though. The opposite end of the spectrum -- 20 vulkites attacking unbuffed -- aren't even favored to kill one blood knight. 

And keep in mind here that Vulkites are like the perfect storm of bad news. They have rend (Blood Knights laugh at non-rend attacks) AND a huge ward save that is basically guaranteed to be in place when they get charged AND a decent armor save. While vulkite hordes may be popular, most of your opponents probably won't be using them. Most hordes are WAY easier for Blood Knights to deal with. A couple of units of Blood Knights charging can break most big blocks, especially if they don't have inspiring presence (and remember, if they have 3+ big blocks they probably can't inspire all of them). Even if you don't break them, they aren't likely to really threaten your BKs either.

I'm not saying that I expect Soulblight to be competitive, mind, but I think the idea that they just can't beat large masses of cheap infantry just isn't the case.

See...this is how you have to think now cuz this is the reality. With the meta shifting you have to think differently then just slapping a list together and thinking it looks good and balanced. Keep in mind as well that most lists will have the Warrior Kinband which allows for double throwing axes. And most lists will use the Pick/Shield combo...which is -1 rend base and MW on the charge...how many 6s are rollled on average of 30 dice? I dont know but thats easily a dead Blook Knight before combat. And if there are more then one unit in range they can pile in D3 more inches.

But yeah most other horde units will probably be cut down way easier for BKs. For me I see Soulblight as I see SCE and Ironjawz and BCR. You already lost if you cant take the objectives in the new battleplans that require 20+ models

[swarmofseals]

19 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

See...this is how you have to think now cuz this is the reality. With the meta shifting you have to think differently then just slapping a list together and thinking it looks good and balanced. Keep in mind as well that most lists will have the Warrior Kinband which allows for double throwing axes. And most lists will use the Pick/Shield combo...which is -1 rend base and MW on the charge...how many 6s are rollled on average of 30 dice? I dont know but thats easily a dead Blook Knight before combat. And if there are more then one unit in range they can pile in D3 more inches.

But yeah most other horde units will probably be cut down way easier for BKs. For me I see Soulblight as I see SCE and Ironjawz and BCR. You already lost if you cant take the objectives in the new battleplans that require 20+ models

I was doing my math assuming the Pick/Shield combo. If you are getting charged by a move 4 unit when your entire army moves 10"+ (or even better 12" with flying depending on what bloodline you take) then something has gone horribly wrong. The pile in does help them get more models in range, but ultimately it just comes down to a matter of space. Vulkites are on 32mm bases, which means they are fighting in one rank. Blood Knights are what, 35mmx60mm? Frontage for 5 Blood Knights is 175mm. So that's 6 vulkites fitting, plus another four in the second rank that can fit in the crevices. Even if the vulkites manage to get fully around both flanks that's still less than 20 in range, and even with d3 extra pile in that's pretty ambitious. 

Double axes are nice, but they aren't that scary. It's still just 4+/4+/- with a very short range. 

 

Your point about objectives is very well taken, however, and this is one major reason why I said that "I'm not saying that I expect Soulblight to be competitive." You can make up for this somewhat by taking one or two big blocks of chaff as allies, but I'm not sure that will be enough. Keep in mind that only two battleplans give preference to units of 20+ models, and you can still hold an objective with smaller units so long as you keep the enemy hordes at bay, and your superior speed should be reasonably good at doing that. 

 

Another tool to keep in mind is the coven throne, which can lock up a massive regiment quite nicely with her spell. 

[Malakithe]

8 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

I was doing my math assuming the Pick/Shield combo. If you are getting charged by a move 4 unit when your entire army moves 10"+ (or even better 12" with flying depending on what bloodline you take) then something has gone horribly wrong. The pile in does help them get more models in range, but ultimately it just comes down to a matter of space. Vulkites are on 32mm bases, which means they are fighting in one rank. Blood Knights are what, 35mmx60mm? Frontage for 5 Blood Knights is 175mm. So that's 6 vulkites fitting, plus another four in the second rank that can fit in the crevices. Even if the vulkites manage to get fully around both flanks that's still less than 20 in range, and even with d3 extra pile in that's pretty ambitious. 

Double axes are nice, but they aren't that scary. It's still just 4+/4+/- with a very short range. 

 

Your point about objectives is very well taken, however, and this is one major reason why I said that "I'm not saying that I expect Soulblight to be competitive." You can make up for this somewhat by taking one or two big blocks of chaff as allies, but I'm not sure that will be enough. Keep in mind that only two battleplans give preference to units of 20+ models, and you can still hold an objective with smaller units so long as you keep the enemy hordes at bay, and your superior speed should be reasonably good at doing that. 

 

Another tool to keep in mind is the coven throne, which can lock up a massive regiment quite nicely with her spell. 

Actually with the MagSon...his CA gives 3 dice to charge with, discarding one, and the Vulkites are allowed to re-roll a charge dice. They also have the +4" army wide rune with the enchanced version +4 to charge as well lol so its very possible. Also..the throwing axe rune...16" range lol thats 60 throwing axes per unit...

I was looking at the Coven Throne...it looks like it would be a excellent tarpit

[assfor]

you still speak about dwarf... how you think you can manage a durthutreeman with lot of sylvaneth wildwood on the object or ironjaws with rend on every model or IceOgre with mammuth? kill a caster on a vortex? before you think to a dwarf battleline, think to real issue

[swarmofseals]

3 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Actually with the MagSon...his CA gives 3 dice to charge with, discarding one, and the Vulkites are allowed to re-roll a charge dice. They also have the +4" army wide rune with the enchanced version +4 to charge as well lol so its very possible. Also..the throwing axe rune...16" range lol thats 60 throwing axes per unit...

I was looking at the Coven Throne...it looks like it would be a excellent tarpit

60 Throwing Axes is just over 4 expected wounds vs Blood Knights, and if they are using that rune then they aren't using one of the powerful melee ones. You can only use one rune per turn, and each rune once per battle. 

Even if we assume they will always roll 10 inches to charge and your opponent uses the rune, that's still an 18" threat radius assuming a completely open field. If they roll a 6 it gets up to 22". If you want to factor in abilities, Blood Knights can have a minimum 18" guaranteed flying threat radius with good odds to go over that. So you are correct, it's not impossible that they will get a charge off but on a realistic table with terrain I don't think it'll happen that often, and when it does it's still only 5 mortal wounds, and it likely means that they aren't going to have the rend rune or the reroll rune which means the rest of the charge will be much less threatening. 

I also just want to take a moment to illustrate what a big deal having a 1" range and a 32mm base is:

 

Forget that those are ghouls for a moment and imagine they are typical spear infantry with a 2" range. In this picture, only 6-7 of the 32mm bases are in range while all of the 25mm spearmen are in range with room to fit more. Granted when the 32mms pile in they will be able to get more models into contact, but the point remains that 32mm 1" ranged guys will likely face three times the attackers from 25mm 2" range guys. It's not exactly apropos to the Blood Knights discussion exactly, but it does illustrate how awkward horde units on 32mm bases with a 1" range are.

[Jaehaerys]

so how does ring artifact work now? Say someone does 10 damage to my 5 wound hero. Proc ring heal can I then move as per the artifact (because i basically revived) and fight another day or does the damage keep applying after I heal?

[deynon]

27 minutes ago, Jaehaerys said:

so how does ring artifact work now? Say someone does 10 damage to my 5 wound hero. Proc ring heal can I then move as per the artifact (because i basically revived) and fight another day or does the damage keep applying after I heal?

it'd die anyway cause you can't heal enough. You don't die and resurrect, that would require reinforcement points. When you reach 0wounds the ring activate and yiu roll a 3+, if passed you roll a D3 and you heal that amount but if not enough to substain the damage you're receiving you die anyway

[Jaehaerys]

11 hours ago, deynon said:

it'd die anyway cause you can't heal enough. You don't die and resurrect, that would require reinforcement points. When you reach 0wounds the ring activate and yiu roll a 3+, if passed you roll a D3 and you heal that amount but if not enough to substain the damage you're receiving you die anyway

Thought as much. Cheers