GHB 2017 Points changes

[Nico]

Quote

the reason they are spammed is they have a great shooting option and a very strong combat option. change this and views will change. a flat points increase is a sure way to kill off a unit. 

They will not rewrite the scrolls for a very long time except in cases of actual mistakes, so that's not an option. Enlightened would be too good with the Skyfires' rule. 

Unusually - the goal here is to kill off the unit. The unit never should have existed (mortal wound shooting at 40" effective range is a terrible development and shooting units that do such heavy melee damage are also broken) and simply needs to be made into an uneconomic option.

[stato]

14 hours ago, Mune said:

And for more "confirmed" changes, just take the skirmish points.

No one is listening to you mate, they are all too busy trying to argue for rules changes to units LOL! 

[Nico]

I heard that the skirmish points for Skyfires were actually cheaper than the current GHB points multiplied by the relevant factor.

[someone2040]

13 minutes ago, Nico said:

They will not rewrite the scrolls for a very long time except in cases of actual mistakes, so that's not an option. Enlightened would be too good with the Skyfires' rule. 

Unusually - the goal here is to kill off the unit. The unit never should have existed (mortal wound shooting at 40" effective range is a terrible development and shooting units that do such heavy melee damage are also broken) and simply needs to be made into an uneconomic option.

Yeah, the threat range combined with guaranteed damage from the destiny dice makes them very powerful. Kinda stupid that they have a bigger threat range than war machines. It makes them a really hard unit to balance.

I think that to make to actually make them a fair unit that wouldn't get people on edge, they'd have to do the following:

1) Make guided by the future re-roll just hits.

2) Remove the Tzaangor Shamans bonus to hit

3) Reduce their range to say 18"

The problem is, they're just far too good at... well everything. They're actually pretty decent in combat if they fight first. The Tzaangor shaman makes their mortal wounds that much more reliable. And their attack range means they can still sit back and stay away from combat. Put it this way, if they're sitting 24" away from Chaos Knights, Chaos Knight's in the following turn (even if there are no units in the way) cannot possibly charge them without a double turn or some way to increase their movement/charge range.

Really tough unit to get a good balance. 

5 minutes ago, Nico said:

I heard that the skirmish points for Skyfires were actually cheaper than the current GHB points multiplied by the relevant factor.

Nah, they're the same in Skirmish.

[Arkiham]

7 minutes ago, Nico said:

I heard that the skirmish points for Skyfires were actually cheaper than the current GHB points multiplied by the relevant factor.

well wrong price but yeah. 

165

 

the theory doesnt hold weight at all 

[stato]

 

3 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

well wrong price but yeah. 

165

 

the theory doesnt hold weight at all 

160/3/5=10.66 so ~11 renown is right for current points.

[Erdemo86]

I think nice would be a rule of 1 which says that you can only buff a stat one time not more. For example you can only get +1 attack not more or only +1 to hit not +2 or +3. that would change many things like skyfires or aetherkhemnust problems.

[Mayple]

49 minutes ago, Erdemo86 said:

I think nice would be a rule of 1 which says that you can only buff a stat one time not more. For example you can only get +1 attack not more or only +1 to hit not +2 or +3. that would change many things like skyfires or aetherkhemnust problems.

I'm okay with stats getting buffed repedeately, but it could be healthy to force that increase to come from different sources, rather than from four-five copies of the same unit. That pretty much balances out things like that, because it's a much more difficult process than spamming a bunch of the best singular buffer.

[BunkhouseBuster]

18 hours ago, Luke.w said:

Reduce gore-gruntas to 140.

As an Ironjawz player, I would say that Gore-gruntas ought to be 160.  Sure, that 20 point difference may not be a big deal, but if you stack your buffs (Warchanter, Bellowing Tyrant, Megaboss Waaagh!) on the Gore-gruntas and get a first-turn charge, then can be more than just a flank holder.  There is great potential in them.

18 hours ago, Luke.w said:

Make Ardboyz battleline regardless of allegiance.

By the Emperor, yes!  That would open up so many more options, especially for those of us who started Ironjawz with the Battleforce that contained a Gargant in it.  I mean, my group isn't too worried about Battleline requirements, so I can field the Gargant without them getting bothered by it.

3 hours ago, Jamopower said:

A lot of the heavy cavalry units and chariots should come down in cost, they are mostly horribly overcosted for what they do.

I think that their points are tied into their mobility and durability more than their damage output.  Having looked at Slaves to Darkness, Ironjawz, and Greenskins Cavalry and Chariots, I feel that they are decent for moving up and holding a flank soon, giving the hard hitters time to move in, which is kind of counter-intuitive for how they perform in reality (which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it is what it is).  But I agree, maybe a slight decrease in points?

Personally, my wishlist is limited based upon my experience with playing one army and facing off against a few.  Aside from what others have mentioned, my request is this:  Ironjawz Brutes should cost the exact same points as Khorne Wrathmongers.  I have had several games where my Brute Squad charged into a Wrathmonger unit and wiped them out, only to later wipe themselves out almost completely on a regular basis.  It is ridiculously awesoeme!

[Nico]

Quote

As an Ironjawz player, I would say that Gore-gruntas ought to be 160.  Sure, that 20 point difference may not be a big deal, but if you stack your buffs (Warchanter, Bellowing Tyrant, Megaboss Waaagh!) on the Gore-gruntas and get a first-turn charge, then can be more than just a flank holder.  There is great potential in them.

That 20 point drop is a 16.7% decrease, which is pretty big. A 10% change can significantly affect a unit's viability.

Quote

Personally, my wishlist is limited based upon my experience with playing one army and facing off against a few.  Aside from what others have mentioned, my request is this:  Ironjawz Brutes should cost the exact same points as Khorne Wrathmongers. 

I hate to break it to you, but I'm pretty sure they are both 180 points.

[13on2D6]

From the armies I have and played against I would say ---

Bloodletters increased

Rat Orgres reduced

Screaming bell- reduced

Skyfires increased

Kunnin Rukk- change it to once per game like the peasant archers?

Sayl- Increase

 

 

[Deathmaster Snikch]

I'm excited to see the changes. Here's my wish list including FW and things I don't play but think should change

Up

 

Sayl

Stonehorns

Skyfires

Stonehorns (especially with BattleBrew)

Thundertusks

Arrow Boyz and the Kunnin Rukk

Stonehorns

Ripperdactyls

Down

Nightrunners down to 80 points! (I'm probably the only person that truely exploits this unit) 

Warpgnaw Verminlord 

Mawkrusha

Gordrakk

Mannfred

 

Finally Stonehorns should go up in points and the Mourngul should stay the same!

[Deathmaster Snikch]

8 minutes ago, 13on2D6 said:

From the armies I have and played against I would say ---

Bloodletters increased

Rat Orgres reduced

Screaming bell- reduced

Skyfires increased

Kunnin Rukk- change it to once per game like the peasant archers?

Sayl- Increase

 

 

The screaming bell needs some love. I'd personally prefer it if they just redid its warscroll entirely but I think GW are trying to get people to build the furnace instead for Pestilens 

 

Rat ogres I can't see changing as theyre not commonly used but the brood horror is overcosted

[13on2D6]

Just now, Deathmaster Snikch said:

The screaming bell needs some love. I'd personally prefer it if they just redid its warscroll entirely but I think GW are trying to get people to build the furnace instead for Pestilens 

 

Rat ogres I can't see changing as theyre not commonly used but the brood horror is overcosted

The brood horror is such a lovely model yet in game is garbage! It makes me sad- I laughed when the incorrect  forgeworld points came out the other week and had it increased

Rat ogres are under loved - I would love to run a Moulder list!!!

[AverageBoss]

There are lots of thing that need to go up, and plenty that need to go down.

 

Skyfires and Rukk I would argue instead need a complete rules rewrite. Rukk is simply bad game design. Skyfires have access to far too many synergies. I see lots of complaints about Skyfires with Destiny Dice here. That's honestly not even that bad. Try fighting them in a generic chaos list, with an additional +1 to hit (whole unit hits on 2s, triggers mortals on 4s), backed up by flying bloodletters (more mortal wounds), and stormfiends.
 

I don't think there is any right points value for them as they currently function.

[BunkhouseBuster]

3 hours ago, Nico said:

I hate to break it to you, but I'm pretty sure they are both 180 points.

I know that.  I guess what I meant is that I hope they stay the same cost, whatever it may be if changed.

[Kramer]

Another thing you could check for an indication...  (didn't look for differences in points myself but just saw it when I tried the warscroll builder for the first time, today) 

edit: I think this would be the best indication after checking it out. Hosts of Slaanesh is divided in Daemons of Slaanesh and the hellstriders put under Mortals. 

and all skaven factions have become 'Skaven' except Clan pestilens, they are still separate. 

Edit 2: don't know the points for skyfires but in this trial version it's 160 and with no limit on unit size, haha

[Trout]

It's hard to say what the point cost changes should be without first knowing what the new rules of 1 are.

[someone2040]

10 hours ago, BunkhouseBuster said:

By the Emperor, yes!  That would open up so many more options, especially for those of us who started Ironjawz with the Battleforce that contained a Gargant in it.  I mean, my group isn't too worried about Battleline requirements, so I can field the Gargant without them getting bothered by it.

See, I'm a person who generally disagrees with making 'Ardboyz pure battleline.  I'm against it because it addresses a symptom, and not attacking the root cause.

Why do you want 'Ardboyz to be pure battleline? I daresay it's more because you want to take a mostly Ironjawz army with some other pieces on the side, whether those are Gargants, Ogors or Troggoths. But  I bet if Ironjawz had some cool nifty allegiance abilities and magic items, that there wouldn't be such a clamor to make Ardboyz pure battleline because you still would have to make the tough call between Allegiance abilities and making a mixed Destruction list. Something that's not such a tough call at the moment for a lot of factions (Bonesplitterz, Beastclaw) because the Destruction abilities and magic items are just too good.

 

So yeah, that's why I'm not a huge fan of that particular change, whether it happens in GHB2 or not. It doesn't address the real issue which believe it or not, isn't exclusive to Ironjawz players. It effects most factions that are quite small and only have a few options, and it'll even become a issue for factions that have pure battleline with the coming of Allegiance Abilities.

So I really hope that GW have a good solution for this in GHB2. It could be as simple as 25% of the army doesn't need to share the same keyword to keep allegiance, or it could be more complicated where each faction has a set of other factions which can be taken in their list without breaking allegiance. Overall hoping it's a change that comes in now, especially since they're going to be dealing out about 20 allegiance abilities all at once.

[someone2040]

6 hours ago, Kramer said:

Another thing you could check for an indication...  (didn't look for differences in points myself but just saw it when I tried the warscroll builder for the first time, today) 

edit: I think this would be the best indication after checking it out. Hosts of Slaanesh is divided in Daemons of Slaanesh and the hellstriders put under Mortals. 

and all skaven factions have become 'Skaven' except Clan pestilens, they are still separate. 

Edit 2: don't know the points for skyfires but in this trial version it's 160 and with no limit on unit size, haha

I wouldn't read too much into this. Warscroll Builder has always had these categorizations from what I recall. 

It might be just how it was categorized pre-Grand Alliance books for the older points pack like Clash and SCGT.

[ZephyrExia]

The change I'd like to see is a points decrease for Gryph hounds from 40ppm to 30ppm. The little Dog Birds need some love!

All this stuff about Mournghuls and Sayl, this is why I personally don't like to play against FW stuff. They look great, but man, its like FW deliberately makes things exceptionally powerful because they are a 'premium service.' 

I'd love to see the GHB have formations for Deathrattle similar to the Island of Blood, where a Vampire can be taken and given the Deathrattle keyword. I love the vampire models, but I really don't like the lore/models for the necromancers...

[shadowgra]

imho things that should go up:

skyfires (obvious)

kurnoth hunters

thunderers

khemist if no rule of 1 hits him

guys with baloon of KO (the op ones)

bloodsecretor

skullreapers (to be in line with other 3w 4+ elite melee units)

lord celestant on dracoth (come on, with staunch he is just too good)

fulminators (only by a few points, to bring them in line with other dracothian)

judicators?

relictor imho should be 100

kunnin rukk to at least 120 (if not changing warscroll)

arrow boyz

stonehorn (huskard and frostlord)

thundertusk (huskard and beastriders)

stormfiends

sayl

neferata

VLOAT

skinks

 

things that should go down

Durthu

treelord (normal)

tree revenants, spite revenants and driads

tzaangor by 20 points

kairic by a lot

frigade

bloodcrushers

vanguard hunters

celestant prime

mournfang cavalry

screaming bell

verminlord warpseer and skreech

mannfred and arkhan

morghast harbingers (the guys with 2 swords)

blood knights and vargheists

glottkin

lord of plagues

orghotts

plagueclaw catapult

verminlord corruptor

everything in the STD range cause it sucks (beside warriors and marauders)

gore gruntaz

maw crushas

monsters of chaos

gutbusters in general beside ogors

temple guards

stegadon

kroak

bastiladon by an inch

rypper (for not having rend they are too expensive)

 

probably forgot a lot but for my experience these are changes that i would really appreciate

 

[ledha]

56 minutes ago, shadowgra said:

imho things that should go up:

skyfires (obvious)

kurnoth hunters

thunderers

khemist if no rule of 1 hits him

guys with baloon of KO (the op ones)

bloodsecretor

skullreapers (to be in line with other 3w 4+ elite melee units)

lord celestant on dracoth (come on, with staunch he is just too good)

fulminators (only by a few points, to bring them in line with other dracothian)

judicators?

relictor imho should be 100

kunnin rukk to at least 120 (if not changing warscroll)

arrow boyz

stonehorn (huskard and frostlord)

thundertusk (huskard and beastriders)

stormfiends

sayl

neferata

VLOAT

skinks

 

things that should go down

Durthu

treelord (normal)

tree revenants, spite revenants and driads

tzaangor by 20 points

kairic by a lot

frigade

bloodcrushers

vanguard hunters

celestant prime

mournfang cavalry

screaming bell

verminlord warpseer and skreech

mannfred and arkhan

morghast harbingers (the guys with 2 swords)

blood knights and vargheists

glottkin

lord of plagues

orghotts

plagueclaw catapult

verminlord corruptor

everything in the STD range cause it sucks (beside warriors and marauders)

gore gruntaz

maw crushas

monsters of chaos

gutbusters in general beside ogors

temple guards

stegadon

kroak

bastiladon by an inch

rypper (for not having rend they are too expensive)

 

probably forgot a lot but for my experience these are changes that i would really appreciate

 

i agree on some of them, but the judicator are actually quite expensive for what they do. 5 shot 3+/3+/-1/1 is averagely good for 160, but for 170/180 pts, it would make them a very terrible ranged unit.

[shadowgra]

well judicators have the bow that makes them quite good also don't forget that they have 2 wounds each at a 4+ save. why shoud they be as tanky as a liberator with no shield if they are meant to stryke from afar? in this way light shooting really struggle to wound them. also they reroll 1 vs chaos (chaos hate is a thing i do hardly accept cause no one has hate vs destruction or death and rarely order). also the champion does an average of 3.5 hits, which puts them at 8.5 shots for 160 points. i don't think that they do too much damage, but they have good damage, tankiness and a really strong option.

they can stay at 160 for me if other stormcast thing get nerfed, otherwise i am sorry but a battleline with these stat, combined with the other stormcast goodness (basically everything) make that army too much a top tier (and in tournaments they are always in top 3, which is saying something). 

i may be a bit too hard on them, but i really think that they are treated much like space marine of 40k, but being less balanced and more op. they are actually too good at everything beside magic. movement? lightning chariot and allegiance (for instance). shooting? all the raptors, prosecutors and judicators. combat? paladins, dracothian, palladors, celestants. save? castellant and staunch. prayers? relictor and veritant. mortal wounds? EH.

there is a bit of a hate i know, but i don't think to have said lot of wrong things. and i forgot many options in it

[chord]

I really hope they lower points for Celestant Prime, just so we can see it around more often