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GHB 2017 Points changes


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Let's kick off a discussion of what points changes you would like to see in GHB2017. 

Increases: stormfiends with flame throwers or at least a distinction between options, weapons teams with flame throwers and stone horn.

Reductions: mawcrusher, kroxigor and Saurus knights. The Mortarchs. 

 

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Reduce gore-gruntas to 140. Make Ardboyz battleline regardless of allegiance. All the 1 wound 4+ save, 2 atracks 3+/3+/-1/1 elites to be reduced in cost. Don't make wildwoods free. Phoenix with Anointed to have separate, inceeased points value. Sisterso the Thorn and Wild Riders both decreased slightly.  

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I wish that Allegianceline goes away, but likely won't.  I hope that some FEC things drop in points, the army is too expensive IMHO for what they can do (also some special abilities would be nice).  I hope that Skyfires, Kunnin Rukk get increased, same with Kurnoth hunters.

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45 minutes ago, Mune said:

Sayl wont change. Hes a forgeworld Mini and they just got their point changes.

And for more "confirmed" changes, just take the skirmish points.

I hope not, that means my FEC stuff is going up in points for no reason (Horrors and Flayers both get points increases if you apply the skirmish formula)

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9 minutes ago, wayniac said:

I hope not, that means my FEC stuff is going up in points for no reason (Horrors and Flayers both get points increases if you apply the skirmish formula)

I dont hope so either. Skullcrushers cheaper as Bloodcrushers makes no sence at all.

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Nagash should drop to 700 points. Vampire lords should probably go down to 120.  Hell, most of death's heroes should go down by 20 points or so when you compare them to the factions with books. Black knights should drop as well and grave guard should be deathrattle battleline.

 

Obviously, skyfires should go up to 200 for 3.

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3 hours ago, Auticus said:

For kunnin rukk to be effectively increased, they need to treat the formation as a multiplier.  Kunnin Rukk doubles damage output.  To me that means any unit using it should double their points cost.

While I absolutely loathe Kunnin' Rukk, this really doesn't make sense at all. It doubles damage output for one unit, but the formation requires quite a few units. Even if you only paid double for one of the units, you'd still just be better off taking two of those units. You'd have more wounds, more bodies, and you wouldn't be introducing a snipeable linchpin into your army. 

It should be quite a lot more expensive than it is now (and arrowboys should cost more as well), but doubling the cost of every unit would only serve to make the battalion almost strictly worse than not running the battalion (basically you'd be trading half your wounds, a bunch of wasted extra points and making your damage output rely on a single hero for an extra artefact).

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Honestly, I don't know that much about the top tier lists, and what points would be appropriate for them. I hope they all get price increases, as some stuff *cough*skyfires*cough* just make everything else 200 points or below look silly before you even add in Destiny Dice. I mainly care about buffs for weaker units, as a lot of them seem to be in older armies which IMO are just as interesting as all the new stuff!

Anyway, I've been doing a lot of mathhammer around cavalry recently that stemmed a while ago from comparing Demigryph's to Prosecutors. And here's my thoughts. Most the stuff is base lined off Dragon Blades, which don't get a lot of notice, but seem to actually be a pretty decent Cavalry unit. A new army on the horizon? Who knows... but I do have a fully painted Dragon and some Dragon Blades packed away somewhere...

These are therefore, some of the changes I'd like to see:

Demigryph Knights - 200 -> 160 points. Sadly, their damage output is just rubbish. Largely this comes from the lack of attacks from the Knights on top. Dragon Blades are just generally better but have a few less wounds. I guess you could say, that regular cavalry will lose attacks faster than the Demigryphs.

Drakespawn Knights : 160 -> 140 points. Dunno who was smoking when they decided these cost the same amount as Dragon Blades. It almost seems like they were expected to have another attack or something. Funny that these guys actually outdamage Demigryph's on the charge :S

Chaos Knights : 200 -> 180 points. Not so sure about the exact points, but these guys don't really hit like the Chaos Knights of old, so could use a bit of help in the points department. Dragon Blades actually hit a bit harder, but Chaos Knights are more tanky at 3 wounds a piece. 

 

And lastly, throw in some Greenskinz love. Almost everything in the list needs to be decreased by 20 points. The Orruk Great Shaman should be reduced by 40 down to 100. That, or they all need to get a wound increase to put them in-line with all the other Orruks, but... that seems doubtful. GW have given no indication that they are willing to change warscrolls outside their release cycle.

 

Lastly again! I'd really like to see Brettonians (and I think Waywatchers from Wood Elves) made consistent with units in sizes of 5/10. It's really stupid that they're in box sizes rather than normal sizes. I mean, other compendium units (Skeleton Horsemen, High Elf Spearmen/Archers/Silver Helms, etc) all follow the regular pattern, so why not those units. It's stupid and unnecessary.

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I'm not overly interested in speculating on the increase/decrease to individual units (although yes stuff like Skyfires/Kurnoth/Stonehorn need to be fixed). I think the GHB2017 - and future versions - should be used to level the playing field. No matter which units have their points adjusted, its clear to me that those factions which constantly hog all the top spots at the tournaments (DoT, SE, Beastclaw/Destruction, etc) need mild decreases in competitiveness while factions which consistently under perform or aren't used at all should have the points costs of their units reduced.

Then next year for GHB2018 rinse & repeat and after a few years of adjustments you should have a fairly even playing field.

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As a Death player I would like to see some changes in the FEC Courtiers. The costs of a courtier are 20 Points lower than the Unit it supplies. I think that could be increased to 40 Points difference between them.

Point reduction for the Mortarchs would be nice, but i don't think that would happen. They are strong enough. If they get a reduction the costs would be same as FEC Ghoul King on Terrorgheist / Zombiedragon.

Maybe the Vampirelord on Zombiedragon and the Blood Knights could be less expensive.

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5 hours ago, Auticus said:

So you make the unit that is getting doubled in power double their point cost and leave the others alone.

It'd still be unplayably bad. Which would you rather have: 40 arrowboys that can fire twice if your big boss is still alive, or 80 arrowboys?

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What's interesting is that I agree with every suggestion in this topic. Hopefully that means that these are sensible suggestions and that GW will come to the same conclusion. 

If Ardboyz became destruction battleline I would be over the moon! I'd also like to see the Mortarchs become generic heroes rather than named characters as in my opinion they cannot compete with the zdragon ATM.

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6 hours ago, Auticus said:

So you make the unit that is getting doubled in power double their point cost and leave the others alone.

The one small fear I have is that they will not change it at all in point cost.

Granted I dont think thats where its issue lies. Basically I get what Kunnin Rukk is trying to do from a narrative perspective and would simply change it to:
- Regular effect is only once per Battle
- Unless you have the Battalion maximized, then it's like it's written now

We have several Battalions with "ultimates" if they are maxed, I think Kunnin Rukk should have been amongst those.

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3 minutes ago, Koalaninja said:

Do you not agree that the maw crusher is over costed but would also kill a Mortarch in a single combat phase if it went first? 

With Deathless Minions and Rules of the Night normaly you cant kill Mortarch with Maw Krusha in one combat phase. In last games i got 30-50% wounds saved by normal save and 20-30% saved by Deathless Minions. But now the difference of 80+ points between Maw Krusha and Mortarch... I dont know how take Mortarch as general, but with Rules of the Night it's big mistake.

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Reduce gore-gruntas to 140.

I don't think Gore Gruntas should cost less per wound than Liberators (the baseline for the game)! Old school Khorgoraths were mental as 8 wound models at 10 points per wound.

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Make Ardboyz battleline regardless of allegiance.

Yes.

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All the 1 wound 4+ save, 2 atracks 3+/3+/-1/1 elites to be reduced in cost.

Yes - these units have virtually disappeared with the rise of Age of Pew Pew.

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Don't make wildwoods free. 

Sylvaneth are so much weaker now compared to how they were on release. Having spent months talking about them on the Sylvaneth thread, I've shelved them until they get a points adjustment. Above all else, they have zero wriggle room on points, with so many overcosted units (Tree Revenants, Dryads, Spite Revenants, Spirits of Durthu, Alarielle and Drycha and all of the Battalions except Gnarlroot) against one undercosted unit (Kurnoth Hunters).

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As with Skyfires, the unit cap for Arrer Boyz is a huge part of the problem. Reducing this to 30 models from 40 slices 20 wounds off the unit and makes it far easier to get it under 20 models. This together with a points hike to 120 for 10 would fix that problem without needing to change the Rukk itself.

I would like Skyfires to be 200 for 3 and capped at a unit of 6 (or deleted entirely from the game - truly terrible unit design). However, DoT need a lot of points reductions:

  • Curseling (what's that?).
  • Fatemaster
  • Herald on Disk
  • Kairic Acolytes
  • Exalted Flamers
  • Flamers
  • Screamers
  • Burning Chariots
  • The Exalted Greater Daemon of Tzeentch needs to come down to 320 from 440 (I know it's unlikely to be in the GHB).
  • Chaos Knights
  • Lord on Manticore
  • Archaon
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making skyfires more expensive is not the way. 

swap their rules with the enlightened so they get rerolls when they go after someone else. you'll see a more even spread between the skyfires, enlightened and tzaangors.

the reason they are spammed is they have a great shooting option and a very strong combat option. change this and views will change. a flat points increase is a sure way to kill off a unit. 

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