Responding to 'Which army should I play posts'

[Dave Fraser]

Which army should I play?

The standard response to this is ‘apply the rule of cool’ and to be fair this is a reasonably good answer in the absence of any further information.  But I don’t think that it is necessarily the right answer to give.

First of all we should really try and establish a little bit more about who is asking the question.  To do this I think there are a few further questions that we should aim to ask before giving an answer:

• Are you new to the game?

• What sort of playstyle do you enjoy (or do you just want a change from what you already have)?

• What budget are you working to?

• How do you feel about painting?

• Do you want to play competitively?

Subject to the answer to these you can end up in a very different place.  Next I’ll expand on why I think these are important questions to ask.

Are you new to the game?

In itself being new to a game doesn’t really change which army a player will pick but it helps us frame our response in a manner which will be as beneficial as possible to the person asking the question.  You could argue that some armies are slightly more complex than others but I don’t think this is a significant consideration for AoS.

What sort of playstyle do you enjoy?

Someone that wants to play a gunline is unlikely to find Ironjaws or Khorne to be the right army for them.  We can loosely attach different playstyles to different armies and that can shape where we should direct people.

What budget are you working to?

A Stormcast army tends to cost a bit more to buy than certain others (volume of different units & cost of characters tend to push the price up) that said if you can build your force out of the assorted starter sets which are around (plus a box of judicators) then you can keep the cost down. Compare that to certain other armies where you can largely pick up a couple of starter boxes and be very close to a full army and the respective cost can vary a lot.  Also the second hand market will typically be more active for older armies unless you happen to catch the offloading from those chasing the ‘new hotness’ to pick up the previous hotness.

How do you feel about painting?

Some armies are easier to paint than others (stormcasts), some people don’t like painting big models, lots of the same models etc etc.  There is little point in directing someone that detests painting to pick up a horde army of tricky to paint models (Khorne), unless they will get them commission painted (refer back to budget for cost of an army!)

Do you want to play competitively?

While you can usually build a reasonably competitive army out of most of the options recent results point to death & beastclaw being an uphill struggle in a competitive environment.  There was an interesting discussion on twitter recently that said if you have played an army 100 times then you should beat someone that has just picked up the latest netlist.  This is probably true but then what happens when you face those players at the top table that have played with their honed (and I’ll say netlist here despite it not always being the case) netlist 100 times?  The player with the better list generally wins if you’re both equally practiced, right?  So to play at the top tables you want one of the top armies.

 

So next time someone asks what seems like a fairly straightforward question of ‘which army should I pick’ hopefully we can improve the discussion and improve the likelihood of a positive outcome being achieved by engaging the question in a more reasoned manner than simply pointing someone to pick what they think is cool.

[Arkiham]

maybe a section for " new to AOS " could be created and tutorials, guides, etc etc could be posted in that. maybe in the new members thing as typically youll see new to aos also being new members?

a flow chart maybe of which army might best suit a player also added ?

[Waizer]

I'd love to see a flowchart like that. I know I may have found that useful when going back and forth which army I wanted to play over the last few weeks

Could be an idea so that the each army is then given a link to what we might consider a decent youtube video of the army in action. If someone is interested in an army just searching youtube won't always give you a fair representation of how an army plays.

[Travis Baumann]

Good original post and I would add one more question:  What sort of fantasy force do you imagine in your head?  And by that I mean do you want to be the "Righter of Wrongs" or "Wrongest Mother in the 9 realms"?  Someone who is drawn to AoS with pictures of nobility and honor in their head probably should stay away from something as backstabby as Skaven for instance and likewise, someone drawn to writhing tentacle madness most likely would find Stormcast a bit stifling and out of character for what they imagined.  This of course mingles with play style but is a separate thing especially when it comes to fluff, look of the models, and the mentality of your fighters/general.

[Menkeroth]

It would all be helpful and good if it would have been something else but our hobby, but the hobby about modeling can not be something else but "apply the rule of cool". If you feel you should, must or have to choose something you have chosen the wrong hobby.

[Lavy]

Has anyone ever done one of those Magic: the gathering questionnaires you do on like Facebook; what magic colour are you? I feel like with an appropriate list of questions we could have people answer them and have a program assign a faction based on that person's answers. Would never be perfect, but might be fun and helpful.

[Tiger]

Initially I liked those questioners. After a while you stop looking at the colors as such and rather think on a specific mechanics you want to have.  I recommend that the potential player gets to know the mechanics of the game, what mechanics he'd prefer to play and consult with more experienced player if his style is even doable.

[Twitch of Izalith]

On 14/10/2017 at 9:45 PM, Menkeroth said:

It would all be helpful and good if it would have been something else but our hobby, but the hobby about modeling can not be something else but "apply the rule of cool". If you feel you should, must or have to choose something you have chosen the wrong hobby.

I think that is far too absolute. For some people, working out the must have, should have , need to have combinations IS the hobby. People play these games for all sorts of reasons will many different priorities. 

If people have something they enjoy about the hobby then they have chosen the right hobby - whatever the thing is.

Some people don't care about modelling and painting and others choose armies based on the stat lines without any great consideration of what the models look like or the background behind the army. I think most people want to tick all the boxes though - they want something they think is cool, will suit their modelling and painting aspirations and will also do ok when they are gaming. IMO "just choose the models you like" is actually bad advice unless you are only interested in open play. If I had bought witch elves, black dragons, dark riders, and cold one knights when I first started collecting for AoS specifically then I wouldn't even be able to play matched play with it because I would have no battleline...

 

[Menkeroth]

I can't say people miss out on something when they can not play matched play, for instance. It's the parasite eating the hobby from within, sadly, because it's not about statlines - you could play with paper ****** as many people do instead. The hobby is about models, it can not exist without them, and even GW states they are a model company. There are tons of competitive games out there which are way better than AoS - which is not suited to this at all, luckily. Warhammer is about universe and models and this is the only truth there is.

[Killax]

Well where I agree is that competitive design really shouldn't be the focus for anyone playing any army. As that kind of design is certainly more subject to change as the models.
For anyone who would ask me something along the lines of "How to start" I'd basically follow the same route Games Workshop initial gave us and still gives us for the game.

Do you like Order? Essentially the good guy and hero of the game.
Do you like Chaos? Essentially the villain of the game.
Do you like Destruction? Essentially the brute of the game that cares not for good or evil but want simple destruction.
Do you like Death? Essentially the necromancer of the game that profits from the many battles and deaths that are going on in the several realms.
Most of the time figuring out what kind of Grand Allegiance you like allows for a lot of depth within that Grand Allegiance.

Order offers plentora of different heroes but I would often say go for the newer range, based on availability and great deals.
- This more or less means Stormcast, Seraphon, Kharadron, Sylvaneth, Fyreslayers and the mixed Order Firestorm boxes offer a great start.
One of the minor annoyances most will have with Order is that basically every release comes with Stormcasts but thanks to GH2017 more factions have become viable and Seraphon is an extremely promising alternative to them. Going for the mix is what sets them apart as a fantastic Grand Allegiance that has no hate for each other. The additions Firestorm has given these mixes is also very potent, if you can't choose on what you like Order doesn't punish that. 

Chaos offers basically three big villains, that in the form of Daemon, "Chaos Warrior" and Skaven. Lots of good deals still, though slightly less as Order.
- This more or less means Khorne, Tzeentch, Slaanesh, Slaves to Darkness + Everchosen and mixed Skaven offer a lot of choice. Skaven is a less ideal route to go because their ranges contain more Finecast models which isn't ideal or easy to acces for all but the essential Daemons and Chaos Warriors are easy to find and expand upon.
The cool thing about Chaos is that I think the models have a lot of character however at the same time their synergies are more specific to the Chaos Gods. Where Order can become a merry band of everything Chaos does this much less so, Slaves to Darkness lines still offer a ton of customisation but you do get rewarded for going with one Chaos God very well.

Destruction offers Ogres, Orks and Goblins, a ton of fun and probably overall the best complete allegiance with larger models and monsters that isn't Stormcast or Seraphon. 
- Destruction players have less choice as Order or Chaos but do get rewarded with awesome looking models.
Mixes are possible, Ogres have preformed well in 2016, Orks have preformed well in 2017. More importantly though you just have to enjoy the physical form of these models. They are all brutes of all kinds of sizes and they all act like this very well. Having a smaller range is not hindering them whatsoever because it also means you have to worry less about purchases and unlike Chaos there is no real reason to not mix things up.

Death offers exactly as it says on the tin. You have to love these kinds of models and also be prepaired for painting hordes or dive into finecast models. 
- Death players like Destruction have less choices for now but there are many hints of GW adressing this sooner as later.
Mixes are possible and also rewarded well. The downside of the faction is the many sub-sub-Factions which means they don't get the same ammount of love out of GH2017 however their Grand Allegiance Wraithfleet still allows for a very potent mix and is certainly something I'd recommend for now. Other than that Flesh-Eaters also have a ton of depth and great potential. 
The cool thing about Death is that they have a unique narrative perspective on things that is less expected as we see on other Grand Allegiances. At the same time though there is some fleshing out to do so by specific Faction comparison within the Grand Allegiances it is most certainly harder to get a army going in the competitive sence.

All in all though, I agree that the rule of cool is much more important. Just be aware that some armies do support massive numbers and this can be a huge task. Age of Sigmar also offers a lot of armies who run with lower numbers. As a rule of tumb I'd say Order and Destruction have less ammounts of models (while swarm options remain in for example Seraphon, Free People or Goblins for Destruction) and Chaos and Death have larger ammount of models (while elite options remain, though typically you do want a swarm unit or two in your army). 

Hope this helps anyone reading  who's new.

Cheers!
 

[Trout]

The problem with the recommended questions is that, unless you are talking to an experienced tabletop wargamer, they aren't going to have a correct response to most of those questions. Prior to actually trying it out, I thought that since I don't have an artistic bone in my  body and have never enjoyed: drawing, coloring, painting, or any other visual art, I would not enjoy painting miniatures; I was wrong. I also thought I liked gunlines. I was wrong about that too. They aren't even going to be in a position to say whether they will wind up enjoying competitive environments or narrative environments more, nor will they know which environments are actually available in their area.

 

Rule of cool is one of the few things they do know for sure. It also happens to be one of the most important aspects of the hobby; so I think responding with the rule of cool is the best move in most situations.

 

Seasoned tabletop wargamers are going to ask different questions than beginners do and you won't need this response for them. They will already have some idea of what they like and the kind of questions they need to ask to figure out which army is right for them.

[Kramer]

31 minutes ago, Trout said:

Rule of cool is one of the few things they do know for sure. It also happens to be one of the most important aspects of the hobby; so I think responding with the rule of cool is the best move in most situations.

 

And mostly they are asking for reassurance that they are making a right choice. Even though they know it's the right one and that's fine. 

[Killax]

Yeah keep it light. Not all AoS design cares for competitive play so why would a new player?

Start easy and grow or not. Some just like having a nice mix of models without true army form. Thats cool too.

What veteran gamers often do is flood people with knowledge, keep awnsers simple to simple questions.

1. Figure out Grand Allegiance.

2. Figure out first Faction and have fun.

[Menkeroth]

Seconding on that. Alliance => specific faction => specific sub-faction (if any, just because there are lots of) => have fun indeed. I, for one, also quite enoy the whole system as it allows for interesting combinations that especially come in handy because many model ranges are quite small. So, for instance, one could unite Order Serpentis and Draconis both and have different and various cavalry units, a choice of heroes and even monsters and chariots. And two ways of painting at least - like they are quite separate forces or a union with details painted similarly. 

[Lucio]

One key question to ask as well, are you on a tight budget? If the answer's yes, then always recomend Stormcast or Khorne Bloodbound. Both have a plethora of cheap ways to get into the hobby as whilst the Start Collecting boxes are good value for money, the Starter sets and the snap-fit miniatures are still the best way to get started.

[Kramer]

6 hours ago, Lucio said:

One key question to ask as well, are you on a tight budget? If the answer's yes, then always recomend Stormcast or Khorne Bloodbound. Both have a plethora of cheap ways to get into the hobby as whilst the Start Collecting boxes are good value for money, the Starter sets and the snap-fit miniatures are still the best way to get started.

Well yes on them being good options.. but all startersets net around 500pt (Beastclaw even 800 something, ill do the math later) all for €65. Snap fit miniatures are a good tip though. 

[Kramer]

6 hours ago, Lucio said:

One key question to ask as well, are you on a tight budget? If the answer's yes, then always recomend Stormcast or Khorne Bloodbound. Both have a plethora of cheap ways to get into the hobby as whilst the Start Collecting boxes are good value for money, the Starter sets and the snap-fit miniatures are still the best way to get started.

Well yes on them being good options.. but all startersets net around 500pt (Beastclaw even 800 something, ill do the math later) all for €65. Snap fit miniatures are a good tip though. 

Bloodbound: 440 + battalion
Greenskinz:410 + Warboss with banner (no points in GHB2017) +battalion
Slaanesh: 360 + Battalion
FleshEaters: 560 + battalion
Stormcast: 300 + battlion + 2 Retributors which I think you need at least five of  
Beastlords: 780 + battalion

And now I'm done  
 

[GammaMage]

There are some oddities that going GA first, allegiance second, won't really cover. Like, what if you want to play something on the border between good and evil (Darkling Covens)? Or happy jolly spreaders of disease who think that they are helping people despite being chaos (Nurgle)? And there are two groups of crazy blood cultists (Khorne and Khaine), but new players are porbably not gonna look in Order for 'so much blood you can fill cauldrons with it'.

[TheNotebookGM]

As someone who just went through this process here is my 2 cents:

Best answer is "spend a couple weeks reading TGA and watching YouTube videos. The models are expensive and the hobby is hard to explain. There are many ways to skin this cat and honestly, if you aren't willing to spend some time figuring it out you probably won't like the game."

I bought two battletomes (neither for the army I settled on) and both GHBs before buying any models. If I'd just bought a ton of KO (because heck yeah steampunk duardin) right off the bat I'd be a sad camper right now because the play style isn't my cup of tea. Literally months went between deciding to play and tomorrow is my first game  (Ended up getting two spire of dawns and a tenebrael shard because I like the hit and run playstyle and the flavor of the faction, and I enlisted a buddy who wanted to make a horde of communist skaven so it worked out for him too). Now I'm pumped to get the Gyrforge Buzzards painted up and reading for your viewing pleasure. Soon to be joined by some Fyreslayers and some Gryphhounds to round out my force.

 

[Wraith01]

Interesting... But when I was looking to get into the game last year my answers would have been:

1. The only tabletop game I've ever played is Mouse Trap with my baby sister and it sucks.

2. Lol, What is play style...?

3. $25

4. I have a BA in Fine Arts so I love painting.

5. One step at a time, I don't even know if I'll like this.

What helped me decide to get into the game was the "Getting into AoS" magazine and the "Storm of Sigmar" mini 2 player starter set. Between those 2 purchases (and the Build and Paint set) I got a good taste of everything that the hobby involves and I enjoyed it and wanted more. I found a place where they played AoS every Saturday and joined the group, made friends and learned a lot. Now I have a 2000 point Stormcast army and a 2000+ point Khorne army. I stuck to the first 2 armies I tried out but I'm planning on expanding into a third at some point in the future (testing the 40k waters now). Oh, and I'm not interested in competitive play at all, I'm all about Narrative games and having fun.

[Dave Fraser]

1 hour ago, Wraith01 said:

Interesting... But when I was looking to get into the game last year my answers would have been:

1. The only tabletop game I've ever played is Mouse Trap with my baby sister and it sucks.

2. Lol, What is play style...?

3. $25

4. I have a BA in Fine Arts so I love painting.

5. One step at a time, I don't even know if I'll like this.

What helped me decide to get into the game was the "Getting into AoS" magazine and the "Storm of Sigmar" mini 2 player starter set. Between those 2 purchases (and the Build and Paint set) I got a good taste of everything that the hobby involves and I enjoyed it and wanted more. I found a place where they played AoS every Saturday and joined the group, made friends and learned a lot. Now I have a 2000 point Stormcast army and a 2000+ point Khorne army. I stuck to the first 2 armies I tried out but I'm planning on expanding into a third at some point in the future (testing the 40k waters now). Oh, and I'm not interested in competitive play at all, I'm all about Narrative games and having fun.

Cool, very helpful, I'd gotten stuck in my mentality of the question mostly coming from people who play tabletop games of some kind, just not necessarily AOS.

That said if the response to  'are you new to the game' came back as yes, I've never played a game before then I'd like to hope most people would tailor their responses accordingly.

1. Are you new to gaming?

A: Yes, never played a strategy/tabletop/miniature/wargame game before.

2. Ok, so why are you getting into it now?

A: I came across the starter set and it looked cool.

Awesome, yeah the GW starter sets are really good value, which of those armies have you been playing.  You like those models/how it plays in the games you've had. 

 

3. Who/where are you playing?

A: I found this group

That's really helpful so you've got people to play with, are they at the same level? that's an awesome way to get into the game as you can all build and get immersed together.  I'd recommend you try to avoid getting into an arms race of buying the model which trumps what your mates are playing, it can get expensive fast and push you all to be really competitive.  But a little bit of that hurts nobody ;-)

4. What's your budget ?

A: $25

what total, a month?  Unfortunately there is a fairly significant capital buy into miniature games so it sounds like a slow grow is the way for you.  Have you heard of Path to Glory, that's a good way of building up a force over time and having some really cool fun games as you go.

5.  You like painting?

A:  I have a BA in Fine Arts so I love painting.

Awesome, when I started I didn't have a painting bone in my body but I always enjoyed giving it a crack.  Since I came back into it as an adult I've found its my absolute favourite thing to do for stress relief and paint pretty much every day, I'm still not great but I like to churn out armies and try and paint the occasional model to stretch my abilities.  Anything in particular catch your eye, from what you've seen, as something you'd love to paint?

6. Do you fancy playing competitively?

A: Oh, and I'm not interested in competitive play at all, I'm all about Narrative games and having fun..

7.  Sundry additional conversation or looping back round to earlier point

A:I stuck to the first 2 armies I tried out but I'm planning on expanding into a third at some point in the future (testing the 40k waters now)

Ah so you're at the decision point of what next, well

[this is where there is potential to start applying my original 5 questions again but also throw 40k into the mix etc etc.]

So for your third army what are you considering?

1. obviously you know the game a little now, are you just after something different to paint or are you looking for a different playstyle in your games?

A: Actually I'm thinking about 40k

2. ok, what's drawing you to that, is it the models or the lore, or just a different gaming experience?  Personally I've generally preferred a fantasy setting but the depth of the 40k background is seriously cool and I've picked up a bunch of models at various times despite never really playing the game.

etc etc.

 

It's easy enough to tailor your responses to fit any level, they obviously don't work straight up into people at the opposite end of the scale but with very little effort can still provide a framework that is better than just saying 'what do you think is cool, ok buy that'. 

[GammaMage]

I actually work in a gaming store. Warhammer 40k is our biggest seller, but AoS is gaining traction. So I actually get asked these questions quite a bit. We keep each  of the Start Collecting boxes in stock, so that helps a lot, I can point people towards them, and usually say 'Which one do you like the look of most?' and then I can explain a bit of how the armies they think look cool play. Of course,  there are some decent armies without Start Collecting boxes, like Kharadron, Bonesplitterz, and Soulblight so I have to try and remember to point out them as options.