Turragor

I want to test 2 Starcast lists as soon as xmas family commitments are out of the way: 1. My last touney list with incantor upgrade & skinks Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals Celestant-Prime (340) Lord-Celestant on Stardrake (500) - Celestine Hammer Drakesworn Templar (420) - Tempest Axe Lord-Castellant (120) Knight-Incantor (140) 5 x Liberators (100) - Warhammer & Shield 5 x Liberators (100) - Warhammer & Shield 5 x Liberators (100) - Warhammer & Shield 10 x Skinks (70) - Meteoric Javelins & Star Bucklers - Allies Everblaze Comet (100) Total: 1990 / 2000 Extra Command Points: 0 Allies: 70 / 400 Wounds: 91 2. Maximising the mw burst Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals Celestant-Prime (340) Drakesworn Templar (420) - Tempest Axe Drakesworn Templar (420) - Tempest Axe Knight-Incantor (140) Lord-Castellant (120) Knight-Heraldor (100) 5 x Liberators (100) - Warhammer & Shield 5 x Liberators (100) - Warhammer & Shield 5 x Liberators (100) - Warhammer & Shield Everblaze Comet (100) Total: 1940 / 2000 Extra Command Points: 0 Allies: 60 / 400 Wounds: 91 The 60 allied pts are optional here. I like the scourgerunner chariot on paper. Spite revenants are also 60. In the 1st list Id take staunch defender & shardfist pelt on LCoSD and azyrite halo for incantor. In 2nd there are more chamber, trait, artefact options as theres no lcosd. My gut is telling me that the 2nd option is going to really annoy some opponents

I'm interested in the options my starcast list has now the two dearest units got a price cut but I am thinking of the 6 desolator and templar lists too. They did just get cheaper as well. I'm probably the only sc player satisfied with the changes due to the kinds of lists I take but I'd have taken some super beefed up liberator scroll changes over the templar and LCoSD cuts. I guess with how ubiquitous libs are they wouldnt want to make big changes there without new battletome levels of play testing. One thing that is a concern is how the buffs to the dragons (price reduction) may prove cold comfort if tzeentchs new tome comes out bananas strong. They were always a counter for us. Well I've bought and am painting an obr army which together with my nurgle army should mean I will always have options at tourneys if the stardrakes and prime bore me (but they never do lol) .

I must say that in my 50 or more tournament games with a LCoSD it's died only a handful of times. You need to meet the likes of a celestant prime (off board till R3) or gotrek before it's any melee to worry about. Terrorgheists and hearth guard berserkers get you with their mws more than melee profiles

It's wounds taken not being applied so a drake is weak to anything that puts in 16 wounds total when all is said and done (regardless of 5s or 6s to save). Not much can do that though. Like the more bodies angle for your list but my preference is to reduce the need for them with more mws (which has its own risks). Finding your own balance is key. I've played this variation of stormcast so much now that I've been losing not because of lack bodies at all. However the extra bodies are a cushion against the misplays that cost me games

Originally 2 x LCoSDs was more pts than I thought would work but now it's not actually ridiculous. The main issue is you tend to want the Castellant with the LCoSD. The saving from the LCoSDs will buy you an extra castellant now. hmm I wonder. You'd still want to do a lot of long range chip mws so maybe that's going too defensive... but you're getting 2x Rain of stars and the shields give you reflect mws (which are also awesome). Perhaps a variant "hedgehog" version of starcast? Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals Lord-Celestant on Stardrake (500) - Celestine Hammer Lord-Celestant on Stardrake (500) - Celestine Hammer Lord-Castellant (120) Lord-Castellant (120) Knight-Incantor (140) Knight-Heraldor (100) 5 x Liberators (100) - Warhammer & Shield 5 x Liberators (100) - Warhammer & Shield 5 x Liberators (100) - Warhammer & Shield Total: 1880 / 2000 Extra Command Points: 0 Allies: 0 / 400 Wounds: 84 120 pts over for (probably) some more bodies. 10 x Shadow Warriors? That's not bad. You could also take a comet and aren't losing out that many mws (the prime's comet is nice though).

Same! I think I understand their rules more now after this round of faqs

I think it's worth testing out, I'll probably have it as 3rd or 4th test list. I prefer at least 1 LCoSD as their durability is much better. The temple costs 1400 which (with 300 lib tax) gives you 300 points to play with!

Locus is 5+ instead 4+ and greater daemons still get 2 added (so 3+). Or am I missing something

I think the best option is 10 skinks and an exorcist to incantor upgrade

What I can also do is add the Heraldor into the original list with the exorcist. That feels pretty potent. Comet Toot toot Rain of stars x2 Prime comet Maybe more mws than needed for support hero castles

I believe the trait got a little nerf? https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/e27ddc97.pdf

Just the points in azyr.

Confirmed! Lots of starcast options open now

I hear a rumour* that Arkhan is back to 340 so this would be "fine": Allegiance: Death Arkhan the Black, Mortarch of Sacrament (360) Liege-Kavalos (200) Mortisan Soulmason (140) 40 x Mortek Guard (440) - Nadirite Blade and Shield 5 x Kavalos Deathriders (180) - Nadirite Blade and Shield 5 x Kavalos Deathriders (180) - Nadirite Blade and Shield Mortek Crawler (200) Mortek Crawler (200) Kavalos Lance (120) Total: 2020 / 2000 Extra Command Points: 1 Allies: 0 / 400 Wounds: 117 I'm happy to test that out I think * We'll see when the great FAQ flawed rollout is complete

If the rumoured points changes are true, this is a viable list now: Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals Lord-Celestant on Stardrake (560) -60 - Celestine Hammer Drakesworn Templar (460) -40 - Tempest Axe Drakesworn Templar (460) -40 - Tempest Axe Lord-Castellant (120) Knight-Incantor (140) 5 x Liberators (100) - Warhammer & Shield 5 x Liberators (100) - Warhammer & Shield 5 x Liberators (100) - Warhammer & Shield Everblaze Comet (100) Total: 2140 / 2000 (-140) Extra Command Points: 0 Allies: 0 / 400 Wounds: 89

nonsense!

It's in en core rules faq too

It's a bit early to say but bks are very much improved with this small change. Means my demons are still meh. Guess if I want to continue with nurgle I get me many more bks. Maybe blightlords? Speed is all that's needed. Armies with good saves still a problem so who knows how this will pan out. Definitely an increase in nurgles attendance and an improvement in performance on the cards

For all to see:

This is also 100% valid when buying an army. Stats show tournament lists. Some fun lists get taken there but they may draw down the average win rates only. Again though, when tiering should we discount the fun factor?

This is a very good point. This topic is about tiering and stats are King there (but analysis of those stats are important). However if you're buying based on stats and tiers you might end up disappointed. Not all your games will be tournament games against tournament lists. A faction with a 50% win rate where the losses are all close fought might be much better than a faction with a 55% win rate where the 45% are all being tabled. Is that separate from tiering though?

Most of this thread doesn't give any valuable information that could be used to build an AoS tier list. There is however plenty of anecdotal listing going on, based on: What people feel the relative strengths of factions are Their biases What they've read (a majority of what is available to read is anecdotal) Their own games played It's like a bunch of football fans talking ****** in a pub while drunk. They may be right on a few things but it's no way to build something that, say, the bookies will use to establish odds for teams and player performance. https://thehonestwargamer.com Has the most accurate data available (it's not something that's "complete" but there's nothing else that compares). Here's the latest (and this is match win % sorted, not top 10s, not 5 wins > 4 Wins): Now that's not the whole story, but it's data. Impartial. It means more than opinion (when trying to work out tier listings). Seems like ppl often get the top tier right but when it comes to everything else, I'm guessing the faction they collect (and lose 50% of matches with against their gaming group) is shoved to the bottom. They are fishing for faction buffs. Everyone wants faction buffs. Case in point: Kharadron, with a 48.3% win rate they are 16 of 34 in that listing (albeit, some of the factions at the bottom shouldn't really be counted imo), 4th best Order faction. Better than CoS (which includes Tempest Eye). That's based on match win %, the other breakdowns on the honest wargamer site give a more complete picture. I personally value match win % over top 10 finishes and 5 wins > 4 wins (by those two metrics, CoS beats Kharadron - taking Kharadron as an example again) but that's my own bias. I like that stat.

Some extra stormcast were added during the year... but 2020's project is going to be OBR. Here is my latest test model: I want to do 'em quick and I'm going dark with a very bright desert like base. It's quite different from everything I've done so far!

Thank you once more! I'll move forward with the building and painting confident that when it's done I've something reasonably solid to test out. I actually just got 3 stalkers ( on sprue) cheap but can't think of where they'd fit in. It gives me the base of the option of taking 6 instead of crawlers in future for example.

Maybe faqs, errata and rules in general will get tighter if gw uses tools like yours (and others) I mean they MAY already have something like that going on but I think it's probably taking modifiers and base stat lines from different buckets and assigning points after a series of test games against other factions (and if any are already imbalanced, the teeter-totter effect continues) /edit I don't mean to imply the rules guys don't work hard more that I'm more convinced they create rules based on a kind of organic expertise they've built over years of products and experience rather than based on tools and maths etc