RocketPropelledGrenade

I'm holding off on buying a Coven Throne specifically to see what the Command Point economy looks like in AoS3. Number of command points granted being increased would definitely help it, but it matters by how much. I've also heard rumors some of the generic command abilities might be changed, so I want to take a look at that too.

There's some very interesting stuff with Flesh Eaters in Undying King, but they are still fairly minor characters. That's all I have read that counts, though. Hope it helps!

Starfall is a particularly unfortunate battleplan for OBR, given our slow speed and lack of movement tricks. I have definitely had trouble on that one.

Personally, I think there's enough possibility of forwarding-looking design choices being the source of confusion that I'm going to wait until after AoS3 to submit any questions.

I like Cities, would be fine with soup in S2D if it had been executed in a way where that actually worked, wish BCR and Gutbusters were less siloed from each other in Mawtribes, and only care about Ironjawz in Warclans. I don't have a single, monolithic opinion on soup. Context matters. In the specific context of Kharadron being souped with Fyreslayers and Dispossessed, I'm against it. It could maybe be executed well, but it still probably wouldn't be as good as a unique new Duardin army, maybe with a 1 in 4 rule to take one or both of the other two as allies or something. Largely echoing @zilberfrid as to why.

I'm in wait-and-see mode. I think the biggest issues with the game are not entirely intrinsinc to the rules, but to battletomes. There's definitely stuff that could be better in the core rules (like the ease of sniping heroes once you reach a certain critical mass of shooting attacks/models), but I think the worst offenses are often either things that don't really appear in the core rules (like activation war-style effects), or armies that have too many powerful, NPE-causing effects at once without real downsides (Seraphon come to mind). So an edition change is only going to fix the worst problems in the game inasmuch as it gives a reason to replace problematic battletomes. That being said, I have been a huge fan of the changes made in 9th edition 40k and the new baseline established for codices there, so I am hopeful--especially if we can expect to see more battletomes like Soulblight's (or at least, like my initial impressions of Soulblight--it's a little early still to make that call for sure). What I want for the game is a little tighter design on what we already have, basically, and I am cautiously optimistic we will get it. Still, too early to say whether I am am happy or not about an edition that isn't even out yet.

Assuming you're not completely attached to the Aura of Dark Majesty command trait and are willing to lean on the Soulbound Garments/Dark Mist/Coven Throne for your survivability needs, then I think Vargheists might have play with the Aristocracy of Blood command Trait. Deepstriking them to wholly within 12" of a VLoZD still gives a wide area to cover, thanks to the massive base on the zombie dragon, and re-rolling a 9" charge may not be as reliable as we'd like, but it's a lot more reliable than it could be. Makes them a decent option for striking a secondary target that your VLoZD can't focus on. Or at least, that's my theory, as I have yet to actually try it.

May I ask why you hate Deathrattle stuff so much? I think replacing one of your battleline Dire Wolf units with a mid-size unit of Deathrattle Skeletons would go a long way towards answering your board presence problem, especially with the option respawn them and/or the Dire Wolves with Endless Legions. I had a very similar train of thought to your final bullet point, except for that switch I just mentioned and buying a command point. Only 53 models initially on the table, but there's recursion to keep in mind, and the wounds total seems not bad at 128. I am definitely waiting on AoS 3 before finalizing the list, though. Depending on things like bonus stacking and command point generation, the Coven Throne may become more or less of a priority. And if the Blood Knights are confirmed to be intended as not able to retreat and charge, you could replace one or both units with cheaper Vargheists.

That's about where I'm at, yeah. Fortunately, I really like Legion of Blood, so they are easier to make appealing to me.

Ooh, I love using Mannfred's sickle-glaive for the lance. I may have to steal that idea!

I think if the points gap becomes bigger between Black Knights and Dire Wolves, then Black Knights become worthwhile. Hopefully we see a 15-20 pt or so drop on Black Knights, which would make them a decent alternate choice.

I haven't gotten my order yet, and would be missing 20 Dire Wolves even if I had, but I went ahead and proxied up a 1000 pt list against my buddy's Nighthaunt and had a blast. Some thoughts from the game, in no particular order: --Neferata is an amazing all rounder and can be surprisingly tanky. She spent something like 8 or 9 turns in combat and ended the game on full health thanks to healing. --Dire Wolves were pretty much exactly what I expected and wanted. Their offensive output is minimal, but they are fast bodies that are durable relative to a very reasonable cost. --Blood Knights are nice, but I think they probably need the FAQ/3E rules change to allow retreat-charging to be truly great. Or it could have been that I was using them badly, because I did definitely make some errors there. -Skeletons were hard to judge in terms of efficiency, because I made a really dumb charge with them after spawning them in from a gravesite and got them wrecked for very little gain--that was all on me, not on the warscroll. --Endless Legions is a lot of fun. I'm sure that's no surprise for you veteran LoN players, but popping up a unit in a surprise location is hilarious. I played with the least powerful interpretation of all rules with ambiguities, or I would have had several more units than I could have if it turns out you can reinforce from the same dead unit multiple times. And the threat of it really just kept things interesting. --Gravesite placement is going to be a huge thing, but the auras are pretty generous, honestly. With AoS3 likely moving to a smaller board like 40k did in 9th, I only anticipate them getting better in that regard.

I had a very similar thought--the Wight King on Skeletal Steed is mobile and relatively cheap, so having it available to support Blood Knights or shore up an engagement where they sniped a Necromancer or other foot hero could be very useful. I don't know if it's useful enough, but it's a hero that has been under consideration in some of my list building. It's definitely going to wait until the model is on sale outside the Start Collecting box, though.

That's actually pretty neat, I like that idea! Could be devastating against lower movement armies, too, in terms of controlling their game plan and ability to plan moves.

I don't know about "only," but it'd be pretty cool!

I've soured on S2D for the time being, or at least on the sections of the army I actually want to use, but I would agree with this from my experiences trying to get it to work. Sorc Lord on Manticore can do some work in combat.

I'll probably be running a sword, but mostly for modeling reasons. I think the lance is the better option mechanically.

With no non-Vargheist troops, you're locked into Legion of Night for Matched Play in order to have Battleline.

That's mostly me, but I'll make an exception for a really nice model, especially if I can come up with a lore reason they would be helping my personalized army out.

I have also been theorizing that 3.0 is aiming for less lethality and models staying on tables longer, and that Soulblight could be the first book hewing to the new standards. Just a guess at the moment, admittedly. On a different note, how dramatic do people think the differences between sword and lance will be for the generic VLoZD? I like the sword a lot better for modeling purposes, and will probably go for it. I'm just worried I'm shooting myself in the foot if so. The deathlance is only marginally worse (1 attack, basically same profile) off the charge, and seems dramatically better on the charge. But it's sometimes hard for me to get a sense for how things will actually play out on the table just by looking at probabilities, especially as I haven't actually played any big flying monsters in AoS yet. Are VLoZD players finding they charge more combat phases than not, or is the sword going to make back some work when the model gets bogged down?

A problem with this line of thinking is that if every tome is buffed to keep up with the broken issues of the front runners until the front runners can be adjusted, then the front runners can never be adjusted. I'd much rather exist in the middle and allow there to be design space for adjusting those factions downwards than make the new middle a pile of broken rules and absurd combo strikes that annihilate everything.

I use Immortis Guard and like them, but from what I hear online, Necropolis Stalkers are the much more popular build. The stance with both rend and damage on it is bonkers powerful for offense, to the point where the other offense-boosting aspects might as well not exist. The main reason they aren't recommended more is their cost relative to how easy they are to kill if they don't get to blend their target first.

A little disapppointed by the Skeleton warscroll, but I'll probably still be taking a block of them. They are just so much more visually appealing to me than the zombies. Battleline will probably be 20-30 skeletons to camp backfield and then Dire Wolves to push forward and screen. I'd like to throw in Black Knights for Legion of Blood Battle line, but...eurgh. No. Maybe if they drop in cost by 20+ points while Dire Wolves stay the same.

Blood Knights + Neferata and maybe a VLoZD (not that it has barding) for Vampires. For Deathrattle, I should clarify that "trim" in this case doesn't mean the detailing on the cuirasses, but the sections of mail in various places. I was using the same terminology for a different thing.

Don't think there are any Deadwalker specific buffs in at all, if I'm not mistaken--just stuff they share with Deathrattle and Deathrattle exclusive stuff. Might explain why the skeletons are more points per model, especially if the Wight King command ability ends up being usable somehow.