dmorley21

Can you explain the current meta from a NH perspective a bit more? I haven't played since the Tzeentch/KO release and haven't followed Wrath of the Everchosen, Seraphon, or Lumineth at all.

You bring up some good points. I've always had a unit of 10, and have had a lot of success with them typically without any hero support. They can make a great support unit if one of my anvils gets bogged down. More often, they're solid hero/MSU/lesser behemoth hunters. I've had many opponents not worry too much about them and focus on my Reapers/Blades/Lady O only to have a key unit/model wiped by the Harridans. They're also great objective hunters as they can typically wipe off other objective holders in a single round of combat. In my previous list, I had a unit of 10 Harridans and two units of 5 Bladegheists. I'm very tempted to now run two units of 10 Harridans and open up 40 pts.

Like others, I just sent an email about the WD battalions. On another note, I wanted to talk about Dreadscythe Harridans. I might be biased here, because I often take a unit of 10 (love the lore and the models) and they often exceed my expectations and catch my opponents by surprise as they're unfamiliar with them. However, I think with the most recent points drops there's a case that Harridans might be one of the best units in our book. At 70/260, they come out to be 14/13 pts per wound. Here's where that compares to other units: Chainrasps: 8/7 pts per wound (ppw) Hexwraiths: 13 Spirit Hosts: 13.3 Harridans: 14/13 Stalkers: 15 Reapers: 16/14 Myrmourns: 17.5 Bladegheists: 18/16 So, just looking at how much they cost per wound you can see they have some decent value. Granted, they're not battleline, so that hurts, but the value is there. But then I decided to calculate how much damage they do on average before saves (I did one attack causing 2 damage for every 6) and the results look like this: A unit of five: 5.3 A unit of ten: 11.2 A unit of fifteen: 17.18 A unit of twenty: 22.13 That damage output is really good by Nighthaunt standards. It's more output than Reapers (including their re-rolls) and Bladegheists that don't get charge off that turn. However, it really shines when you look at how much in terms of points you're paying for that damage: A unit of five: 13.2 pts A unit of ten: 12.5 pts A unit of fifteen: 12.2 pts A unit of twenty: 11.7 pts So how does that compare? Well, for Reapers that are fighting hordes, you're paying 16/14 pts per each wound before saves and 24/21 if they're not fighting hordes. For Chainrasps, you're also paying 16/14 pts and you don't get any rend. For Bladegheists, you're paying 14/12 if they're on the charge, and 20/18 if they're not. So, Harridans are our most points efficient damage dealers and one of our most points efficient per wound units. If their other special rule actually goes off, then that's gravy. This all begs the question, how should they be used? Even though they're very point efficient in a horde, their large bases and 1" reach makes me think that you'll end up losing some efficiency there. I've always had good luck surprising opponents with how much damage a unit of 10 can do, and I'm inclined to keep using them at that size. But I might look into including two units of 10 instead of one. There's far too many armies that ignore battleshock for me to run a Shrieker Host battalion, which is a shame, as that could be pretty interesting at this point. What are your thoughts on Harridans?

The Black Coach is unchanged from the digital winter points update, but changed since the last GHB. So it's the same points as what people have been playing lately, but it has an asterisk because this is the first time a hard copy has those points next to it. So maybe that was the confusion?

I hope you're right. Out of curiosity, what is something GW has cleared up for you when you have emailed them? I've never tried emailing them before. Just thinking about intent, these seem pretty different than White Dwarf battalions. The intent of starter set battalions is so that players can play against each other if they split the boxset. They're more of a toss in - people are buying that box for the models and the savings, not for the battalions. Meanwhile, people are specifically purchasing copies of White Dwarf magazine based on battalions. So it may make sense to ignore box set battalions, but it's sort of self defeating to negate White Dwarf battalions as that's literally a selling point for some of their issues.

I've enjoyed the editions of the General's Handbook that I've purchased - especially the updated battleplans. However, I enjoyed the Gaming Book that was released last year a lot more. That was a lot more user friendly during games. I wonder if a new version of that will be released.

My army dropped by 50 pts. It was 1970 before so I now have 80 pts to work with. This is assuming Dolorous Guard remains and remains the same price.

That would be excellent, logical news. Do you have a source on this? Missing Aetherquartz Brooch or something similar in an army that desperately wants Command Points is a major bummer. That being said, as others have mentioned, Nighthaunt artefacts are quite good. Pendant of the Fell Wind can straight up win games. Midnight Tome is a really useful artefact. If you take a Guardian of Souls, they have some really good options with Wychlight Lantern being my favorite. And then there's some interesting melee artefacts. Most times, you're only taking 1-3 artefacts. So while annoying not being able to reclaim a command point, it's not really going to ruin the army. I feel worse for armies that relied on Ethereal Amulet or Ghyrstrike.

Me too. I didn't convert Harrows but did by 2 kits of Hexwraiths and Lady Olynder. The battalion was a real game changer for me. I appreciate the other points changes though. I ran a 2 units of Hexes, a unit of 10 Harridans, and a GoS; so it opened up a good deal of points for me.

Yeah, I was wrong here. This is what it means. As for the battalions, do other armies have their WD battalions in the GHBs? Another thing I thought of is those battalions came out after Cities of Sigmar, so they might be in the digital update.

They are changes from the battletome. The asterisk represents when the points value are not what they are in the battletome.

Yeesh, I'm really disappointed the Emerald Host battalions got dropped. My list revolved around The Dolorous Guard.

This has been brought up quite a bit, and it seems that yes, you can use "Fly High" for Zilfin's Footnote. First off, even though it was brought up, it was never addressed in the FAQ/errata. Secondly, Warhammer TV posted a video where this occurs. It occurs late in the game IIRC - the link is posed below. Finally, there's been anecdotal evidence of players using the Fly High + Footnote at official Warhammer Heats. Given all of that, I'd think that Zilfin using their ability to Fly High during the hero phase and drop an Endless Spell is a legitimate strategy. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/540071772?filter=all&sort=time

The worst warscroll that I've ever used is easily Nighthaunt's Glaivewrath Stalkers. Two units were mandatory as part of a battalion I was running at the time. For 60 pts, you get a unit of 4 - 1 wound a piece. That's a strange unit size, but Myrmourn Banshees make it work by being very killy in the right circumstances and being able to unbind spells. Stalkers... move slowly, don't have any rend, and their attacks profile are outclassed by just about anything that is not a Chainrasp in the army. With a drummer they can retreat and charge, which juices up their attacks - to be still pretty bad. Bladegheists do the same thing but have a higher movement characteristic and actually hit hard. As a unit of 4 and the cheapest unit overall that Nighthaunt have access to, they can be a speed bump or a screen, but for 20 more points you get 6 more wounds by using Chainrasps. So, in essence, they're a bad unit that is then outclassed in every single way by another unit in the book. Oh, and they're not even batteline.

Yep. So I've been handicapping myself! I had just always used the Harrow before Dolorous Guard and thought this was the case. So good to know!

If your general isn't a named character, spectral summons allows you to teleport units not in combat as long as your general isn't either.

I haven't done the super battalion, but have been loving using Olynder as my general with Dolorous Guard, so she gets my vote. I don't get in many games due to where I live, but I'm 3-0 with that list against Stormcast (hybrid melee/shootcast build), Skaven (lots of bodies and shooting build), and Cities of Sigmar (60 Phoenix Guard, 2 Frosthearts build). She hasn't been killed in a single game, and I have found her command ability to bring back models more useful than Ruler of the Spirit Hosts was for me as my Dreablade Harrow was typically too busy ghosting around the board to be close enough to use it on units that needed it. In addition, she just deals a ton of damage with her Hexwraith guard. Now, it is worth noting that his works for me due to the fact that I also bring another major threat to the game with a blob of 30 Reapers supported by a Guardian of Souls (and soon a KoSoES). So my recommendation would be if you take Olynder as your general in Emerald Host, make sure you have another threat on the board.

I don't think that's completely necessary. Some units need a rewrite (hello Glaives!), but I think taking our allegiance abilities and then stacking that with sub faction abilities could do the trick. Imagine if we could choose from any of the following sub faction abilities: 3D6 charges where you get choose one die to discard. Still would allow Wave of Terror. An additional -2 bravery on the charge. Frightful touch army wide, then 5+ for units that already get it. +1 to casting rolls, unbinds, dispels, and a 5+ shrug of spell effects. A sub faction that had summoning. Any of those with our current rules would make for really strong or fun builds.

This is a tremendous post. A couple quick things. First is that the ethereal amulet does nothing for Nighthaunt. We're already ethereal, and allies can't take it. Second, I'd definitely add Pendant of the Fell Wind as an artefact worth taking. The +3 movement is absolutely huge in a game of objectives when our models all have Fly. Third, I'd definitely include endless spells. Chronomantic Cogs is such a useful spell for Nighthaunt, that I feel that it needs to be mentioned. Using Reikenor to cast Purple Sun or Geminids is also really fun/useful.

It's probably a decent list, all things considered. I don't have the models for it, so I won't be giving it a try. I also tend to think that being one drop isn't that useful for Nighthaunt. Being one drop allows you to go first against alpha strike lists, but we shouldn't fear alphas with our ability to deploy half our units off the table. It also allows you to go first and alpha armies that need a turn to get powered up - but those armies typically deploy in a castle that we just don't have the tools to break unless you roll 10+ for all of your turn one charges. It does still allow us to seek the double, but it's just not as powerful for our army as it is for others. This is true, but I'm beginning to wonder why that is. Obviously, RotSH is powerful, and even more so if used with Spirit Hosts. But if you're general is a teleporting Harrow, chances are you won't be by the unit you need to heal. I always took it on my Harrow general, and hardly ever used the ability because I was putting my Harrow into strategic positions for board control and not in middle of a big unit. So I mean, RotSH is powerful, but I think trying out other traits is a worthwhile endeavor. Also, did anyone ever see the Nighthaunt list that did well at Heat 1 at Warhammer World in the UK? I saw someone did pretty well, but haven't seen the list anywhere. Thanks.

It seems to be written to address that the extra artefact cannot go on a named character or an allied hero. Those normal restrictions are still in play.

There's other spells with similar potential. Purple Sun, Warp Lightning Vortex, Everblaze Comet all come to mind. The difference is those spells rely on luck and stuff the opponent does to do massive amounts of damage, so they can be played against whereas Daemonrift in Tzeentch allows the controlling player to execute the optimal setup. On another note, I'm late to the party, but I've been able to use a list with Dolorous Guard and Lady Olynder general a few times now. I have to say I love it. I never got good use out of RotSH before as my Harrow was always teleporting away from battle, so her command ability is an upgrade for me. I miss the Spectral Summons trick, but not nearly as much as I thought I would. With Underworlds deployment, Pendant of the Fell Wind, and Cogs; I always have plenty of movement. Meanwhile, Lady O and her Guard make for a block that can dominate the board control game. Especially when I run a unit of chaff with them. They can also fight just about anything with all the mortal wound potential. Finally, it makes Nighthaunt really competitive in hero missions now that we have a tanky and killy hero. I played Relocation Orb and Olynder and her Guard were able to dominate the objective. I'm hoping to take the list to a one day tournament in March.

Well the more in the new book talks about a special unit of thunderers to deal with the repercussions of the Necroquake. So that could be a unit. I could also see a Skywarden hero. Otherwise, it's hard to say.

I wish this was what united "Destruction" factions. Tragic factions that don't want evil things, but whose culture, society, and existence just don't allow them to co-exist with any of Order, Death, or Destruction. It would allow for a much more diverse group of forces with some fantastic lore. It really wouldn't be difficult put Orruks, Gitz, or Mawtribes into this type of lore either.

As someone new to the KO forums here, I have to say I'm pretty disappointed that there is so much bickering back-and-forth. I've got my own thoughts about the anti-synergies and problems that the book has (it does have problems, and that's fine to admit... and, golly gee, wouldn't just allowing units to disembark after ships move/fly high fix just about everything?), but I think we need to have more constructive conversation about the KO book that we do have. I'm someone who really loves to list build, it's just a part of the game that I really enjoy. So let's talk about lists. First off, I still think a lot of the list building is going to boil down to how many drops you think KO needs to be to compete. Despite high movement, low model count armies simply don't have a lot of room for error. There's plenty of armies that can turn 1 alpha strike us that screens won't do too much good at blocking (Cities, Tzeentch, Nighthaunt, Stormcast, Deepkin off the top of my head). So I'm not sure what the answer is here but let's look at lists based on drops: 1 Drop Well, you're taking the Iron Sky Command battalion with a Dirigible Suit general. It's the obvious, and seemingly great, list. It also works for any Skyport. 2 Drops Iron Sky Command battalion w/ Dirigible Suit general again. This time you get to add your own flavor of spice (Gunhauler/Thunderers/Knight Incantor+Comet). Escort Wing battalion in Barak-Zon with a Dirigible Suit general. This is pushing it, as you only get one hero, but Zon Skywardens actually are a strong melee unit and the forced Command Trait/Artefact loadout make the Dirigible Suit general strong in melee too. 3-5 Drops You're still primarily looking at the two lists above with more side spice. I think the Zon Escort Wing battalion really starts to shine at this amount of drops. You can add a couple of heroes along with a unit of Riggers. You can also try Escort Wing in any of Urbaz, Zilfin, or Nar, as they open up Gunhaulers/Frigates/Thunderers as battleline. Urbaz will be the lowest drops, and is the first list where you don't need a Dirigible Suit general anymore. You can also do a Zilfin Iron Sky Attack Squadron and get into this amount of drops easily without a Dirigible Suit general. I'm waiting on to see if this battalion gets Designer Commentary to specify whether it works after the Frigates "Fly High." 6+ Drops Go crazy! At this point, you aren't likely to have less drops than competitive armies that want to go first/second, so you can really build any list your heart desires and even leave the battalions at home. Overall, I think we need to figure out how many lists we'd face where we would need to control whether we go first or not and to figure out how many drops those armies are. Once we do, I think we can look past the drops and start asking interesting questions such as: 2 Frigates vs. 1 Frigate w/ 10 Thunderers vs. Ironclad? Enough drops so you can run a different general than the Dirigible Suit guy? The Admiral and Khemist both have game changing command ability options IMO (Cunning Fleetmaster/Collector respectively). Spell in a Bottle or no Spell? People seem to have strong opinions about both sides, but I see both sides having strong arguments, especially because not only does the spell cost you points in an already low wound army, but also because KO have the best artefact options I have ever seen in a book. Which spells for Spell in a Bottle are worth it? Obviously, Warp Lightning Vortex. The Comet I would save and only take if I ally in a Stormcast wizard, because Warp Lightning Vortex is the same points, but better IMO. I'd argue that there's merit to take Geminids in an alpha strike list. I'd also argue that Darkfire Daemonrift could probably do the most damage of any spell we could take. Purple Sun if you just want to have fun, but it's too swingy to count on since you only get to use it once. What's our best unit for holding objectives? Arkanaut Company for point efficiency, or Thunderers for their -1 to hit and more firepower? Honestly, neither will stand up to a true melee force, but what about for holding it against the type of speed chaff that is usually running/flying around and grabbing objectives?