First army.

[ZealotZ]

So I'm torn between these two factions as my first army, I've played Warhammer 40k, never touched fantasy, but more and more of my gaming group are moving to AoS. A game I have little knowledge of.

But the two armies that interest me are the Skaven, the horde mentality, pestilence, miasma of suffering and infighting between clans all serving the great horned rat. Then the grand alliance of Death, skeletons, zombies and fantastic beasts led by necromancers and vampires, what more could you want?  I would eventually like to play both but, right now. I don't have the money.

So my main question is. What is the current state of the game with these two armies, is one easier to build good strategies with? Does one have any particular strength or weakness over the other? Also which of the starter boxes is the better value? Any help for this novice would be greatly appreciated.

[Dez]

I'm seriously biased, I'd say Skaven  They have a good Start Collecting in the Pestilens box just for the Screaming Bell and Warplightning Cannon you can build out of it alone. There is also the crazy good deal of the Spire of Dawn set.

You can build a really good, competitive list from the Verminus Clawpack battalion alone. They have some really strong synergy, and the more Clan Rats you take the better they become. This is really good in board control. Their heroes help out a lot too. Also, they're shooting. All of Chaos borrows their Stormfields and Warplightning Cannons. Jezzails are really good, so are Rattling Guns and when close up Warpfire Throwers just douse things in Mortal Wounds. 

I find that Skaven have all the tools, in multiples, that you will need to be competitive and play a great game.

[Tretch]

I am also biased. However....

Death Alliance seems not to have much love from GW. Also there armies have no shooting.

Personally I wouldn't go with Pestilens because they don't have many different types of units. A normal Skaven army, with a few units of plague monks could work. You could get magic, shooting, melee rats. The whole package is there.


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[BunkhouseBuster]

Skaven have some really strong shooting attacks, able to do a decent amount of Mortal Wound output from a distance.

Both armies have a decent selection of hordes and some tough elite models.

Skeletons and Zombies (and Death in general) are considered to be a lower-tier strength army, but they have some possibilities for recursion and can be a strong tarpit that can take a ton of damage, and just just keep coming back.  They have some crazy shenanigans they can pull off, and the Mourngul model is one of the nastiest monsters of any Grand Alliance.

[Sactownbri]

So I'm torn between these two factions as my first army, I've played Warhammer 40k, never touched fantasy, but more and more of my gaming group are moving to AoS. A game I have little knowledge of.
But the two armies that interest me are the Skaven, the horde mentality, pestilence, miasma of suffering and infighting between clans all serving the great horned rat. Then the grand alliance of Death, skeletons, zombies and fantastic beasts led by necromancers and vampires, what more could you want?  I would eventually like to play both but, right now. I don't have the money.
So my main question is. What is the current state of the game with these two armies, is one easier to build good strategies with? Does one have any particular strength or weakness over the other? Also which of the starter boxes is the better value? Any help for this novice would be greatly appreciated.

If you are looking at this from a competitive point of view then Skaven all the way. Storm Vermin are just gross. The play style and the combos are easy to understand and there is lots of ways to play them. They also have the full suite of options, unlike Death. Death suffers from lack of range/artillery at the moment. Death also relies heavily on heroes and the army can crumble fast when they are sniped out. Where Skaven have more solid rank and file, and plenty of monsters filling all the niches.

If you are more interested in Narrative play then I prefer death. Nagash and the Mortarchs are all very fun to play. And I think they are the most fluffy army to play, nothing really compares to a zombie horde backed by Nagash in narrative play. You literally drown your opponents army in bodies.


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[DeadlySarcasm]

6 hours ago, BunkhouseBuster said:

Skeletons and Zombies (and Death in general) are considered to be a lower-tier strength army, but they have some possibilities for recursion...

Out of interest, what do you mean by this?

[BunkhouseBuster]

3 hours ago, DeadlySarcasm said:

Out of interest, what do you mean by this?

From what I have heard, Death's strength comes from its ability to summon up many blocks of Zombies, Skeletons, and other models.  In Matched Play, Summoning was toned down so that you still basically pay for the models and then can bring them in later outside of normal deployment.  Plus, you can only attempt to cast a summoning spell once per turn to bring in models.  If you are worried about competitive and tournament play, then you might be in for a uphill battle.

I have yet to play with or against death, so this is all anecdotal.  But if you are not worried about winning and want to focus on Narrative, Open, and house-ruled games, then Death would be fine.  I pick my armies based on looks and personal fluff ideas, and I haven't had any regrets yet.

[KnightFire]

Death can be pretty competitive. It is true that there aren't any cookie cutter netlist armies floating around for death, so you have to think about about what you want to do. Summoning still provides lots of flexibility, as you get to summon the units you need at that particular moment in time, and for that particular scenario and match-up, rather than having to put together a generic list and set it in stone at the start of a tournament. Death armies are still viable, they just aren't an option where you can copy the latest netlist and follow a simple formula to play it. I think some of the individual factions do struggle a bit, but if you take it as a mixed grand alliance you have a lot of scope.

I have a large death army, and have played against death in tournaments several times.

I am pretty sure the skeleton horde starter box is one of the best value ones you can get, the mortarch model on its own would cost £48

[Guest]

Don't discount the Flesh-Eater Courts if you're looking at Death armies. They don't have too many tricks but they do have the advantage of very effective unit replenishment and can be fielded as a horde, an army of elites, a monster mash or a mixture of all three. They're not your typical army of undead and aren't to everyone's taste, but they can be good fun and I'm led to believe they're even somewhat competitive in the right hands. They also have the most gloriously twisted backstory of any AoS faction so far, and the army has amazing potential for characterful conversions if that's your thing. They don't have any fancy allegiance abilities or artifacts like some of the newer factions, but then neither do Skaven.

Also, someone up-thread said that Death doesn't have any shooting which isn't strictly correct. Skeleton Archers, Ushabti and the Screaming Skull Catapult are options that are available to you, albeit options that will require some converting or expensive eBay hunting to actually field (the kits are no longer produced, but the warscrolls are still valid). And of course Death armies have the potential to field lots of 'wizards' with Arcane Bolt, which is sort of a shooting attack.

People will say that Death as a Grand Alliance doesn't get much love, which is sort of true, but if we're comparing Death to Skaven then it's worth bearing in mind that both Skaven and Death are neck-and-neck on 1 Battletome each. In terms of the lore, Death is featured constantly in key dramatic arcs, whereas the Skaven tend to just show up occasionally as a nuisance on the sidelines (so far).

And finally, there have been vague rumours of major new releases for both Death and Skaven circulating for some time now. So both could be due some goodies in the next few months.

[Chris Tomlin]

Ooops, looks like you missed Ironjawz from your initial post @ZealotZ!  

[KevenM]

Between the two choices I would also suggest Skaven. More competitve and not as many glaring weaknesses as the Death Grand Alliance.

[FRoper]

skaven is easier to use for a starting army, while death is more of a specilized army if you want to play competitivly, i would see what is happening around you and see what your meta is like, is it very or casual.

[Menkeroth]

The best advice is to follow your heart and choose whatever you like the most miniature-wise, that's the essence of the hobby.