Lets Chat Wanderers / Wood Elves compendium

[Aezeal]

It's not always having first turn though.. you still take turns deploying.. but you just declare they are off the table.. you won't autowin the first turn (unless you can go first and have a 1 drop batallion.

[Yeled]

49 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

It's not always having first turn though.. you still take turns deploying.. but you just declare they are off the table.. you won't autowin the first turn (unless you can go first and have a 1 drop batallion.

Yeah, we'd still need to use our one battalion to get first turn (although I think I'd choose second turn).

[Gwill_of_the_Woods]

On 9/3/2017 at 9:13 PM, WABBIT said:

Nice work on fast FAQ by GW.

So now all GW need to do is;

• add 2 wounds to the glade lord on dragon so he matchs all the other dragons in AoS (most of whom are cheaper!!)
• drop wild riders to 120pts and give them -1 Rend on charge in addition to their +1 to wound on charge.
• give the  avatar of the hunt the ability to reroll nearby  wild riders charge  and give the riders 1 extra attack.
• Allow woodelves to ally with wanderers or just regain wanderers keyword.
• drop wild wood rangers to 140pts as they have less armour than other elites and a niche ability rarely used.
• give all wanderers and woodelves immunity from wyld wood roused to wrath attacks and dangerous terrain rules. At least give it to Wyld wood rangers!!!!!
• fix azyr so the correct wander command traits are listed. "Hunting hawk" is not a command trait. Myst walker is missing.
• fix azyr so that wanderers allies appear when selected. Currently nothing comes up....
• fix warscroll builder to show eternal guard as wanderer battle line.
• Drop glade guard to 100pts and give them massive regiments option at 240. Or just massive regiments option for 300pts at least.
• allow sisters of the watch to shoot twice even if they move and drop their points to 200. Give them massive regiments cost of 500.
• give us some new awesome warhawk/ eagle rider models.
• reduce kurnoth hunters to 200pts so we can get 2 units in a 2000pt game  pleaaaaassssseeee!
• give us a hug.

Don't wake me up this is a nice dream.

 

I like the suggestions!

 

You should make one of those unofficial compendiums! I'd buy it!

[Aezeal]

3 hours ago, Gwill_of_the_Woods said:

I like the suggestions!

 

You should make one of those unofficial compendiums! I'd buy it!

I think he's asking for a bit much.. most units where he asks 2 things I think it should be one or the other (I'd not protest against getting both but I don't really think it would be balanced)

. Especially his demands for sisters are insane. 200 points for 20 shots that are stronger than GG seems illogical. I can see the double shot when not moving as a tactical choice.. but indeed a point drop would be nice.

I disagree completely on the powerup for the forestdragon.. it's a nimbler tactical dragon (less HP and attacks - he doesn't mention the 1 lesser d6 damage bite attack)  and his breath ability is strong if used correctly.. I think it's pretty OK on the points

What I'd like is a PRIEST that can summon a wyld wood... preferably we'd get them for free too and ofc we shouldn't be harmed by them either.

 

[Frozenbeast]

On 9/3/2017 at 9:13 PM, WABBIT said:

Nice work on fast FAQ by GW.

So now all GW need to do is;

• ........
• give us a hug.

Don't wake me up this is a nice dream.

 

I WANT THE HUG EVERYTHING ELSE ****** IT!!!!!!!!!

[Yeled]

3 hours ago, Aezeal said:

Especially his demands for sisters are insane. 200 points for 20 shots that are stronger than GG seems illogical. I can see the double shot when not moving as a tactical choice.. but indeed a point drop would be nice.

I don't think this is totally insane. Right now the Sisters at 220 are much less desirable than Glad Guard. They need to sit still to fire double shots, which given our allegiance abilities they really don't want to do, and they have half the wounds that GG have at similar points. That's a huge difference. 

Maybe they shouldn't get an automatic double shot, but right now they are way overpriced to the point that, no matter how much I want to use them in my armies, it's hard to justify given the way I want to play. They either need a significant price drop or they need a big boost. 20 shots with ten wounds and a 5+ save for 200 points isn't that unreasonable. They'd be a powerful but frail unit. Right now they are just frail.

[Aelfric]

I have been considering building 20 more Sisters to make a unit of 30 on the basis of economies of scale.  With 10 the stand and shoot is too ineffective to stop a charge so they have to be protected by Eternal Guard, but I'm wondering whether 30 shots might just break up a charge or give my opponent pause for thought, so won't need the bubblewrap.  Also 60 shots standing still seems pretty effective and if you need to move them you still get 30 and force a decision on your opponent - to charge or not to charge.  They would also be worthy of a mystic shield, making them a little more durable.  Add in a Waywatcher general for the -1 to hit for shooting.  I know it's a huge investment in points (and money!), but sometimes it's better to go all or nothing. Has anyone given it a go and, if so, how did they fare?

[Aezeal]

1 hour ago, Yeled said:

I don't think this is totally insane. Right now the Sisters at 220 are much less desirable than Glad Guard. They need to sit still to fire double shots, which given our allegiance abilities they really don't want to do, and they have half the wounds that GG have at similar points. That's a huge difference. 

Maybe they shouldn't get an automatic double shot, but right now they are way overpriced to the point that, no matter how much I want to use them in my armies, it's hard to justify given the way I want to play. They either need a significant price drop or they need a big boost. 20 shots with ten wounds and a 5+ save for 200 points isn't that unreasonable. They'd be a powerful but frail unit. Right now they are just frail.

I said both a price reduction and double shots is insane.. not saying a price reduction would be crazy (the double shot by itself might still be a bit much though). Once I get my first 10 (my main opponent wants to sell 10 but forgot them a few weeks and now we aren't playing a few weeks) I think they'll get into my 2K army (I'll still play mainly shooters like my 1500 list but maybe with the batallion, a unit of sisters and a 3th unit of EG. I think that combined with a unit of ERG they should be solid defenders of one of the objective in your own area and should be able to pressure midline objectives too with their shooting. If you can get them into a relevant position where they can defend an objective they'll be worth their points since defending objectives is one of our weaker points. (also I don't have another 30 GG lying around )

[WABBIT]

Haha glad the conversation about my list keeps going on and on. @Gwill_of_the_Woods Yeled has already started building the new aelf battletome on the living wish list thread and I'm already saving it to buy it from him.  He is doing a splendid job. if the next aelf book doesn't come out soon and have some solid balanced units in it I am not joking I'll send it to the printers. We May as well write our own rules so we can use our minis the way we want to. No one is suggesting anything approaching over powered. Everything I've read suggests everyone want a level playing field and an army that makes sense. This is feedback by people who actually own and play wanderer armies. GW do a great job for many armies but wanderers are a confused mess right now. I don't play events so I don't care if GW won't allow me to use community driven rules. They won't care either as they have my money and my respect for their awesome models. GW marketing staff and rules writers however need a kick up the bum. Their Community team deserve a big hug.

I think who ever sets the points level for units forgets to factor in durability. 220pts for a unit like the sisters is far too high when you compare their durability to kurnoth hunters for example.  their access to sylvaneth synergies like reroll saves, free spirits battalion move, free terrain to get cover from and many more makes them way more cost effective. Yes sisters have high offensive power but only when they don't move. The range is too short to be able to support your army from the back line so they must move to maintain mutual support or avoid enemy charges. They are incredible easy to shoot off the table or stay out of range of. A unit which cannot survive a stiff breeze is a liability not an asset. They generate so much threat they will be targeted for removal early or simply avoided (granted it's much harder to avoid them with wanderer allegiance). They are easy to get at by any enemy ranged units,  flyers and  cavalry. Sister of the watch are at odds with the swift moving theme, battalion rules and alliegence abilities of a wanderer army so they need a proper overhaul. Kurnoth hunters have 50% more wounds in a smaller foot print with a potentially 2 up save re-rollable, they can pump out mortal wounds in combat, have 30" range allowing them to stay clear of bad match ups and half a dozen other advantages I can't be bothered to list. Their durability is well known and actually dissuades opponents from bothering to deal with them, preferring softer targets instead. You can't score if your unit is dead. If the person setting the points for wanderers had actually used a wanderer army or collected one they would know that wanderers are out of sync and would have adjusted the warscrolls accordingly. 

And the the dragon definitely needs 2 more wounds and an extra bite attack (thanks Aezel) to be back in line with the other cheaper dragons who have a nice ranged mortal wound attack to compensate for the glade dragons breath attack.  With all due respect to Aezel I do Sometimes wonder if you want wanderers to be able to compete? Have you read some of the warscrolls wanderers have to compete with for the same points? It's obvious wanderers lack any credible chance of doing well in tournaments but we play them despite these disadvantages and Tidings, rather unhelpfully, proves they can still win quite convincingly 

[Yeled]

15 minutes ago, WABBIT said:

It's obvious wanderers lack any credible chance of doing well in tournaments but we play them despite these disadvantages and Tidings, rather unhelpfully, proves they can still win quite convincingly 

@Tidings does do that, though he adds in a lot of non-wanderer units to help him along.  

[WABBIT]

If living city alliegence units are immune to wyld wood wrath attacks then that will be an interesting army indeed. If not then what is the point? It's like deploying into a giant Venus fly trap. Nice idea poorly implemented again. I guess we don't know until the book drops. Only anvil guard looks strong. The others a bit meh.

[Pigey]

16 hours ago, Aezeal said:

It's not always having first turn though.. you still take turns deploying.. but you just declare they are off the table.. you won't autowin the first turn (unless you can go first and have a 1 drop batallion.

Thanks for pointing it out... Still interested though.

 

5 hours ago, WABBIT said:

If living city alliegence units are immune to wyld wood wrath attacks then that will be an interesting army indeed. If not then what is the point? It's like deploying into a giant Venus fly trap. Nice idea poorly thought out again. I guess we don't know until the book drops. Only anvil guard looks strong. The others a bit meh.

Although, there's that too... We'll see.

[Tidings]

7 hours ago, Aelfric said:

I have been considering building 20 more Sisters to make a unit of 30 on the basis of economies of scale.  With 10 the stand and shoot is too ineffective to stop a charge so they have to be protected by Eternal Guard, but I'm wondering whether 30 shots might just break up a charge or give my opponent pause for thought, so won't need the bubblewrap.  Also 60 shots standing still seems pretty effective and if you need to move them you still get 30 and force a decision on your opponent - to charge or not to charge.  They would also be worthy of a mystic shield, making them a little more durable.  Add in a Waywatcher general for the -1 to hit for shooting.  I know it's a huge investment in points (and money!), but sometimes it's better to go all or nothing. Has anyone given it a go and, if so, how did they fare?

That's a really interesting idea! I think it has two big weaknesses though. First, a giant unit like that is terrifying when it stands still and shoots. Unfortunately, it's both easy to kill, and easy to avoid. at only 18" range I think most enemies will just avoid it as much as possible, and then commit to (easily) wiping it when they have to. Would be curious to try though, maybe I'll proxy my GG as Sisters in a casual game later!

6 hours ago, Yeled said:

@Tidings does do that, though he adds in a lot of non-wanderer units to help him along.  

Ha! On Saturday I placed very well at a small, local tournament with my Mixed Order list. I was pretty happy with how it did, and everyone was talking about it. I'll be going back to the drawing board for a Wanderer tournament list. The Frostheart is just the kind of unit the Wanderers need - it's very tough and is fast enough to dive on objectives.

Just to back up my love for the Frostheart, here's some recaps from the tournament. First off, it didn't die at all. In my first game it tied up two units of Brutes and a Warboss in range of all my shooting, which promptly cleared the table. In my second game, it soaked the charge from my opponents 20x buffed up wolf riders and occupied them until I got around to killing them. 

I faced the dreaded Kunnin Ruk as well, and it was epic. My hurricanum cast Mystic Shield on the Frostheart, and my Amber mage cast her spell on another unit. Both spells triggered the +1 to save. Then I flew the Frostheart right in front of the Kunnin, in range of the two wizards supporting the arrer boys. It failed the charge, but it had the archers in it's -1 to wound bubble. My opponent was confident he would kill it that turn. He made the mistake of casting two spells in range of the Frostheart, giving it another +2 to save (for a total of +5 to save, basically a 2+ ignoring rending up to -2). ~240ish shots later, and after two units charged the Phoenix, it was still above 50% health. My opponent was beyond shocked lol. 

I'm already building my second Frostheart, and will be finishing the paint job on my current one asap!

[Davariel]

7 hours ago, WABBIT said:

Sister of the watch are at odds with the swift moving theme, battalion rules and alliegence abilities of a wanderer army so they need a proper overhaul.

More than anything else I think this is because they're still essentially a high elf unit. Under the original compendium they had access to much more appropriate synergy such as a command ability that let them re-roll hits, wounds and saves if they DIDN'T move, Phoenix Guard/Bolt Throwers for a more defensive playstyle, and the handmaiden's buff. They're really at odds with everything about a Wanderer army though, and I'd even argue that moving them over was a mistake (although as a high elf player I might just be bitter over the loss ).

Having said that I agree completely with your thoughts regarding the Sisters. If they're going to stay where they are, their warscroll probably needs to be rewritten from the ground up... which sadly doesn't seem terribly likely

[Aezeal]

6 hours ago, Tidings said:

That's a really interesting idea! I think it has two big weaknesses though. First, a giant unit like that is terrifying when it stands still and shoots. Unfortunately, it's both easy to kill, and easy to avoid. at only 18" range I think most enemies will just avoid it as much as possible, and then commit to (easily) wiping it when they have to. Would be curious to try though, maybe I'll proxy my GG as Sisters in a casual game later!

Ha! On Saturday I placed very well at a small, local tournament with my Mixed Order list. I was pretty happy with how it did, and everyone was talking about it. I'll be going back to the drawing board for a Wanderer tournament list. The Frostheart is just the kind of unit the Wanderers need - it's very tough and is fast enough to dive on objectives.

Just to back up my love for the Frostheart, here's some recaps from the tournament. First off, it didn't die at all. In my first game it tied up two units of Brutes and a Warboss in range of all my shooting, which promptly cleared the table. In my second game, it soaked the charge from my opponents 20x buffed up wolf riders and occupied them until I got around to killing them. 

I faced the dreaded Kunnin Ruk as well, and it was epic. My hurricanum cast Mystic Shield on the Frostheart, and my Amber mage cast her spell on another unit. Both spells triggered the +1 to save. Then I flew the Frostheart right in front of the Kunnin, in range of the two wizards supporting the arrer boys. It failed the charge, but it had the archers in it's -1 to wound bubble. My opponent was confident he would kill it that turn. He made the mistake of casting two spells in range of the Frostheart, giving it another +2 to save (for a total of +5 to save, basically a 2+ ignoring rending up to -2). ~240ish shots later, and after two units charged the Phoenix, it was still above 50% health. My opponent was beyond shocked lol. 

I'm already building my second Frostheart, and will be finishing the paint job on my current one asap!

Ive always wanted an excuse to get a phoenix.. need to build me a list with it first though. Wil be hard to fit it on a pathfinders batallion.... That batallion would be nicer if the requirement weren't so insane. 

[WABBIT]

22 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

Ive always wanted an excuse to get a phoenix.. need to build me a list with it first though. Wil be hard to fit it on a pathfinders batallion.... That batallion would be nicer if the requirement weren't so insane. 

Yeah I agree the requirements are overboard for what you get.

GW need to make armies more flexible so we can all play armies we want to play and not what GW force us to use by battalion or allegiance rules. Lack of Battleline options and the number of battleline required per 1000 pts are too restrictive for us so we don't use that rule much in our games. Armies with ****** battle line options way more fun to play that way. They did a great job with Sylvaneth and you can see they have learned a lot since AoS was release. I just wish the GHB2017 addressed the older warscrolls and battalions with the same level of care as they did for Sylvaneth. Fixing old rules earns less money that writing new ones I guess. If older scrolls were updated properly they would sell more of the older models but again they want to dump the older lines. They could just sell the licence and moulds off to someone else to own and manage but the main reason is it's easier to manage rules for new stuff. Compendium units are just a millstone around the neck of progress.  Sad but true.

[Tidings]

1 hour ago, Aezeal said:

Ive always wanted an excuse to get a phoenix.. need to build me a list with it first though. Wil be hard to fit it on a pathfinders batallion.... That batallion would be nicer if the requirement weren't so insane. 

Totally agree. The requirements are insane for such a one-trick list with such a huge weakpoint (the Nomad Prince). You can mitigate the weakness of it a bit by making a Waywatcher your general and using his command trait to give -1 to hit, stack that with the Shawl on the Prince and he's at a -2 from shooting. But anyways yeah, the requirements are way too high. Especially compared to Kunnin Ruk, which is essentially the same ability WITHOUT the 12" from your Prince requirement. It requires less than 1000 points of stuff. So it's a better version of the same ability but with less requirements. 

WHY ARE ORKS BETTER AT SHOOTING THAN WOOD ELVES?!

[WABBIT]

15 minutes ago, Tidings said:

WHY ARE ORKS BETTER AT SHOOTING THAN WOOD ELVES?!

You could also ask how are Savage frenzied barbarian Orcs even able to focus enough to fire a bow? Surely their theme is unbreakable, crazed, frenzied combat and movement - not Zen archery with Haste spell type effects. Anyone who has fired a real bow knows it takes skill and concentration to load, aim and shoot one. Practice can greatly speed this up but frenzy would result in a broken bow in seconds. Its another example of poor writing from GW but that's not to say all their rules are bad. They have written a lot of great stuff too.  Even Savage Orc players I know are confused about Kunnin Ruk - They want awesome berserk fighters not mental archers...

[Tidings]

26 minutes ago, WABBIT said:

You could also ask how are Savage frenzied barbarian Orcs even able to focus enough to fire a bow? Surely their theme is unbreakable, crazed, frenzied combat and movement - not Zen archery with Haste spell type effects. Anyone who has fired a real bow knows it takes skill and concentration to load, aim and shoot one. Practice can greatly speed this up but frenzy would result in a broken bow in seconds. Its another example of poor writing from GW but that's not to say all their rules are bad. They have written a lot of great stuff too.  Even Savage Orc players I know are confused about Kunnin Ruk - They want awesome berserk fighters not mental archers...

Yes, agree 100%. On the flip-side, in the same army they have fantastic rules and fluff for the giant spear model. They one with two orks carrying it. It's a massive for spear for ramming into monsters, and when they die the throw the spear at the enemy to do D3 mortal wounds. I love it! But then zen archer monks... wat. 

Anyways we are way off topic haha. Wanderers!

[Kelvarion]

well, a good thing for our allegiance ability could be something like Sylvaneth, everytime we use it roll a dice, with 1 your ar f...ed, 2-5 still like now, 6- doesnt count like a move, add one if a hero is close, 2 if is the general. Only with that would be quite nice.

[Cerve]

On 23/9/2017 at 11:58 PM, WABBIT said:

I agree, nothing new or exciting for wanderers or sylvaneth in Firestorm as they can already do what Living city does. It's only good for non Wanderers and Sylvaneth armies who want their abilities of movement. Shame no point in using it unless you want Storm cast and free guild in your army. There's too many disappointing changes and rules this year for the armies I collect (Wood/High Aelves and Sylvaneth) it's starting to get me down. Better to write our own stuff than the ****** coming out of GW at the moment. I'll take Yeled's great hard work on the Living wishlist thread and see if my mates will let me use that :D. The is answer will probably be "yes as long as you don't win with it too often"  

Wanderers being in cities? Well I don't think they are wood elves anymore. They are more like Gypsies. they just move around alot and have nothing to do with nature of woodlands specifically. If you look at the models we are left with they look more like lightweight High Born now. Still very nice models but not earthy enough anymore, GW seem to have another direction for them.

Don't think about Gypsies, you have an army of Aragons!

[Frozenbeast]

I found myself giving a go at a smaller list of wanderers (1000 pts) and the list was half way one was suggested to me half made out of curiosity for allies.

Nomad prince - stalker + viridescent shawl

Waywatcher

Waywatcher

Waywatcher

GG x20

EG x20

Executioners x10 (WWR models fit pretty well in the Executioners aesthetic plus a toutch of wanderers)

I wa playing against dispossessed (King, Runesmith, 40 warriors, 10 Longbeards, 2x 10 irondrekes) and because that list was the same I already played against I found myself having a bit more fun and risk something more. A part from teleporting the Exe beside his forces and then failing a charge and having them stuck forever there, when they actually charged (he was too scared of the WW and he tried everything to sink them so left intact the Exe) they smashed faces!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That 2 mortal wounds on 6s to hit is nasty. Considering you roll 21 dices almost always means an average of 3/4 6s so 6/8 mortal wounds right off the bat. I think they are pretty viable as a replacement for our WWR (having the models well painted and wanting to play them :P). The problem remains a bit the same I think; seen they were dwarfs so normally static,and distracted by something else I managed to charge and do something but for sure they are not able to hold any charge for themselves unless they have a larger unit.

Another thing I though about is is the Shawl actually worth taking? Do you use the prince only as a utility with the re-roll so the -1 give him a bit more safeness or will it end up in  combat sometimes so maybe is more useful something like the splinterbirch blade to send him against heavy armored units or forget-me-knot for heroes? 

[Aezeal]

When my EG got charged by executioners I noticed they are nasty (damn that run and charge command ability they got - and I didn't know about).

However aren't only former HE our allies?

[Tidings]

2 hours ago, Frozenbeast said:

I found myself giving a go at a smaller list of wanderers (1000 pts) and the list was half way one was suggested to me half made out of curiosity for allies.

Executioners x10 (WWR models fit pretty well in the Executioners aesthetic plus a toutch of wanderers)

That 2 mortal wounds on 6s to hit is nasty. Considering you roll 21 dices almost always means an average of 3/4 6s so 6/8 mortal wounds right off the bat.

Unfortunately you can't ally Executioners in a Wanderer army.

But I have tried them in my mixed Order army and they are incredible - so much better than WWR for the same points (lol wut GW). I use them near my Hurricanum, which doubles their chance to proc the MWs. It's brutal.  

[Yeled]

15 minutes ago, Tidings said:

Unfortunately you can't ally Executioners in a Wanderer army.

But I have tried them in my mixed Order army and they are incredible - so much better than WWR for the same points (lol wut GW). I use them near my Hurricanum, which doubles their chance to proc the MWs. It's brutal.  

Yep. My son plays mixed chaos and his strategy tends to be take buffs to make MW easier to produce. Works like a charm when your bloodletters, skulltaker, varanguard and others are getting MWs on 4s and 5s. If he hits your right you just don't survive, no matter who you are. They are nasty and EG have no way to survive that.

Executioners do 2 MW each time...that's amazing and soooooooooooo much better than our Rangers.