How do you beat Kunnin' Rukk mixed?

[Carnelian]

49 minutes ago, Gauche said:

Very interesting tech, I'd like to play against it. As far as I know the Battalions that let you drop closer don't allow for Gryph Hounds though so it's still 9" Charges, not as bad for some Units of course. Otherwise the 3+ rolls have to line up and that's not reliable. Pretty easy to deny landing zones to anything that comes in but being able to get into the Grots is a start.

The Gryph-Hound doesn't need to charge, just be within 10" of where the grots are deployed, so should not be an issue.

Not sure it will help a great deal against your list but I can't wait to try it out against my mate!

[Requizen]

1 hour ago, Gauche said:

Very interesting tech, I'd like to play against it. As far as I know the Battalions that let you drop closer don't allow for Gryph Hounds though so it's still 9" Charges, not as bad for some Units of course. Otherwise the 3+ rolls have to line up and that's not reliable. Pretty easy to deny landing zones to anything that comes in but being able to get into the Grots is a start.

Skyborne Slayers is still 5" away, and you can use Scions of the Storm with Gryph Hounds, so you can drop them down 9" away, meaning it will come down to positioning whether or not they can place the Fanatics anywhere.

[daedalus81]

38 minutes ago, Louzi said:

You can't win 100.000 $ winning a AOS tournament. Therefore (my opinion) people playin such lists ruin the hobby and have some serious problems...

I actually really enjoy playing hard lists with my admittedly softer variants.  I enjoy a challenge.

Also, decimals instead of commas for money is the devil.

[Gauche]

33 minutes ago, Requizen said:

Skyborne Slayers is still 5" away, and you can use Scions of the Storm with Gryph Hounds, so you can drop them down 9" away, meaning it will come down to positioning whether or not they can place the Fanatics anywhere.

Good stuff, I'll have to ask one of my locals to test that for me sometime. Stormcast are not really an army I fear with the list even if it's tech'd out against me but I'd have to test extensively before that's anything beyond a gut reaction.

[Louzi]

4 hours ago, Auticus said:

Bent tournament lists are why I don't participate in tournaments any longer.  Those aren't my idea of fun.  Granted, we all have varying thresholds of what we consider fun.  If you don't want to encounter bent tournament lists that are designed to mudhole stomp you, don't go to tournaments.  Thats what I tell everyone I know that goes to them and complains that they had no fun because someone they perceive as WAAC stomped them with a bent list.  A tournament is the domain of that style of play.  Don't walk into the lion's den and complain when the lion eats you.  Either understand that going in and bend the lists yourself if you want to not be groin stomped, or accept that your list that is not min/maxed is going to be shredded and be ok with that.

The only problem I have with this style of play is when it bleeds over into casual or my campaign events.  This style of list is banned from any public campaign events that I run, but thats because campaigns are to me not tournaments, and are events held for those that don't want to have to deal with bent and broken lists exploiting the game.  Different strokes for different folks and all.  

I like to play tournaments and I dont have any problems playin vs hard lists. But this list? Or 18 Kurnoth hunters? Come on...

EDITED BY BEN.  NO SWEARING ON TGA

[Louzi]

I guess in AOS 90% of the tourney lists are really cool. They are hard, but fluffy. In my opinion the AOS community is cool, too. It is only now, that I see those [expletive deleted] lists (as I describe them) alot. Those players dont love their army dont paint them well. This is a real shame. I guess it is because of all the 40k filth discovering AOS...

[Gauche]

2 minutes ago, Louzi said:

I guess in AOS 90% of the tourney lists are really cool. They are hard, but fluffy. In my opinion the AOS community is cool, too. It is only now, that I see those bullshit lists (as I describe them) alot. Those players dont love their army dont paint them well. This is a real shame. I guess it is because of all the 40k filth discovering AOS...

Always very kind and outreaching to talk down to other players and not care about their perspective. Something I've come to expect sadly.

[Louzi]

20 minutes ago, Gauche said:

Always very kind and outreaching to talk down to other players and not care about their perspective. Something I've come to expect sadly.

Yeah sry. That was a little bit much emotion

[Captain Marius]

@Gauche im finding it really interesting reading your perspective on hard aos armies, especially the advice you offered specific to the game you played with @WoollyMammoth. Do you have some more examples of lists your army has a hard time against?

[Gauche]

1 minute ago, Captain Marius said:

@Gauche im finding it really interesting reading your perspective on hard aos armies, especially the advice you offered specific to the game you played with @WoollyMammoth. Do you have some more examples of lists your army has a hard time against?

Yes, and thank you. Good to know my ramblings are good for something.

Just as a preface I'm going to say I think AoS, if you're playing hardest list vs. hardest list, is a heavily shooting favored game. Double Turn, Battleshock, shooting into melee are all rules that make shooting extremely powerful. I've written about that before but it's just important to know since it colors my perspective.

I think Sylvaneth can give my list a very hard time. Kurnoth Hunter spam is probably the best list in the entire game right now if your objective is solely to win, I would get outshot in that matchup since Thundertusks on full profile kill one model and 3+ Save, 5 Wound models do not die to arrow fire that easily. Sylvaneth can guarantee their own Cover, make more to advance for Scenario while still in it, and can use their Batteline to get around my flanks. I do not expect to win against a totally optimized Sylvaneth list.

DoT has good game as well since they shoot proficiently and if they can deliver a Gaunt Summoner (which they can via Bonds of Treachery) it's painful. The disc rider bow Unit (name escapes me since I'm at work) can pick off the Big Boss with ease unless I get extremely favorable terrain. I'd say this one is even and depends on a lot of game to game factors.

Any mirror match is obviously even, I think double Kunnin' Rukk is heavily favored. That list has its own matchup problems but it would beat mine since I have Monsters and Mortal Wounds into Orruks do very little.

Warrior Brotherhood felt even before it was removed, I need to put more theorycrafting into the new SCE but as of yet I haven't found/seen anything where I don't feel advantaged. That may change.

Basically any strictly melee army I feel hugely advantaged into unless they can Charge on Turn 1 with a significant amount of models. One big Charge from a Sayl Unit or something like that has of yet not put me off my game. Sayl Bloodbomb or something similar along with another delivery method, the Skaven Digging Battalion for example, might get the job done. Same with being able to Charge Turn 1 and remove a Unit of Grots with shooting, that has some game.

Overall, as I mentioned in this thread, anything that comes in small waves is going to have a bad time. Any pure, slow melee army is going to have a bad time. Armies which rely on Heroes (Death), usually have problems. These are all things that are typically reflected in the to end competitive events that don't use Comp, there's a lot of guns.

To briefly segway (which no one asked for) I think Matched Play specifically needs to expand the rules a bit to curtail these things. Increasing points isn't enough unless there's a significant ranged tax in this game which could put people off. Having a Look Out Sir type rule (2+ the shots onto a Hero go to a nearby Unit), preventing shooting into melee (at least your own melee!) would be very good changes. AoS is an amazingly fun game with melee on melee, it shines and is perfectly balanced for that playstyle. Shooting vs. shooting is actually pretty fun as it's very cagey, but shooting vs. melee is a poor game experience for the melee player on average.

If you'd like to continue the conversation and I'm detracting from this thread I'm happy to do that over PM. I love talking AoS. My continued presence in this thread is to offer honest feedback to proposed counters in the vein that the OP started since I have quite a few games with the list and have been wargaming for many years.

[Nico]

Quote

I like to play tournaments and I dont have any problems playin vs hard lists. But this list? Or 18 Kurnoth hunters? Come on...for me that is just bullshit.

I'm surprised how well people are doing with the bow hunter spam. I would have thought that a horde list - particularly a Death Horde - would just flood the objectives and not die.

Stormcast have literally got the hard counters to it for a start - a prayer that forces the enemy to reroll 6+ to hit rolls (so rerollings the 5s and 6s if you use the Hurricanum), a command trait that gives +1 to save as an aura which even affects Stardrakes (as it's not actually a cover save, it just doesn't stack with a cover save) along with Protectors and Fulminators. Why are 4 Fulminators not getting sent in with Lantern buff from the Castellant (35/36 save vs all the Kurnoth pew pew in the world). Similarly an Ancient can tank them all day too, while a Durthu might need to be healed every so often.

Quote

Having a Look Out Sir type rule (2+ the shots onto a Hero go to a nearby Unit), preventing shooting into melee (at least your own melee!) would be very good changes. 

This is not a good solution. It's a sledgehammer to crack a fairly big walnut.

I did predict that nerfing alpha strikes would encourage pew pew and bunkering and this does seem to be happening.

One possible solution would be to create a new faction or allegiance pack for a given army, which is basically an autowin against a gunline - multiple horrendous hard counters to shooting (as much as Wrathmongers are an autowin against an army of 3 Stonelords and little else). So many of the existing counters to pew pew are awful - debuff spells which you need a Balewind Vortex to cast (e.g. Ash Cloud, Sorceress Spell and Grey Wizard); and which can only affect one unit of Hunters, Bat Swarms (which should protect nearby friendly units and not debuff enemy units that can walk backwards out of range and then shoot you).

[ledha]

6 minutes ago, Nico said:

I'm surprised how well people are doing with the bow hunter spam. I would have thought that a horde list - particularly a Death Horde - would just flood the objectives and not die.

Stormcast have literally got the hard counters to it for a start - a prayer that forces the enemy to reroll 6+ to hit rolls (so rerollings the 5s and 6s if you use the Hurricanum), a command trait that gives +1 to save as an aura which even affects Stardrakes (as it's not actually a cover save, it just doesn't stack with a cover save) along with Protectors and Fulminators. Why are 4 Fulminators not getting sent in with Lantern buff from the Castellant (35/36 save vs all the Kurnoth pew pew in the world). Similarly an Ancient can tank them all day too, while a Durthu might need to be healed every so often.

This is not a good solution. It's a sledgehammer to crack a fairly big walnut.

I did predict that nerfing alpha strikes would encourage pew pew and bunkering and this does seem to be happening.

One possible solution would be to create a new faction or allegiance pack for a given army, which is basically an autowin against a gunline - multiple horrendous hard counters to shooting (as much as Wrathmongers are an autowin against an army of 3 Stonelords and little else). So many of the existing counters to pew pew are awful - debuff spells which you need a Balewind Vortex to cast (e.g. Ash Cloud, Sorceress Spell and Grey Wizard); and which can only affect one unit of Hunters, Bat Swarms (which should protect nearby friendly units and not debuff enemy units that can walk backwards out of range and then shoot you).

maybe i'm wrong... but don't reroll happen BEFORE modifiers ? So someone with a +1 to hit won't have to reroll his 5 (because the dice is still a 5)

 

as for the fulminators : they still have a chance to die running and charging in the forest. Even with dmg 3, their spear will have sometime trouble to kill 5 wound 3+ rerolling save opponent. And if they don't, the kunorth will just teleport away and being bring back to life. And the fulminator die to spells or awakening the forest.

[Gauche]

4 minutes ago, Nico said:

I'm surprised how well people are doing with the bow hunter spam. I would have thought that a horde list - particularly a Death Horde - would just flood the objectives and not die.

Stormcast have literally got the hard counters to it for a start - a prayer that forces the enemy to reroll 6+ to hit rolls (so rerollings the 5s and 6s if you use the Hurricanum), a command trait that gives +1 to save as an aura which even affects Stardrakes (as it's not actually a cover save, it just doesn't stack with a cover save) along with Protectors and Fulminators. Why are 4 Fulminators not getting sent in with Lantern buff from the Castellant (35/36 save vs all the Kurnoth pew pew in the world). Similarly an Ancient can tank them all day too, while a Durthu might need to be healed every so often.

This is not a good solution. It's a sledgehammer to crack a fairly big walnut.

I did predict that nerfing alpha strikes would encourage pew pew and bunkering and this does seem to be happening.

One possible solution would be to create a new faction or allegiance pack for a given army, which is basically an autowin against a gunline - multiple horrendous hard counters to shooting (as much as Wrathmongers are an autowin against an army of 3 Stonelords and little else). So many of the existing counters to pew pew are awful - debuff spells which you need a Balewind Vortex to cast (e.g. Ash Cloud, Sorceress Spell and Grey Wizard); and which can only affect one unit of Hunters, Bat Swarms (which should protect nearby friendly units and not debuff enemy units that can walk backwards out of range and then shoot you).

I think R/P/S is a MUCH worse approach to balance than a Look Out Sir type rule, but I'm not saying my solutions are perfect either. Cover could be expanded, Units could give Cover or -Hit to those behind them (ala Protectors), many things could be done. It just needs to be game wide, imho.

The problem with the counters that get tossed around is you have to game specifically for them. The SCE list you mentioned, yeah it'd be rough. But it gets slammed by a ton more other armies. That's getting deep into meta-gaming which almost never applies to miniatures, more of a TCG thing. People aren't going to go out to buy 18+ Hunters, Kunnin' Rukk, etc. just to win because it's way more involved than buying 75 cards. Very hard to have an established metagame in miniatures, I've only seen it a few times personally.

[Nico]

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maybe i'm wrong... but don't reroll happen BEFORE modifiers ? So someone with a +1 to hit won't have to reroll his 5 (because the dice is still a 5)

This has been discussed before, where we came to was that the sole purpose of this reroll before modify rule is for reroll 1s rules (which are of course ubiquitous) as you wouldn't be able to stack reroll ones with +1 to hit otherwise, or reroll saves of 1 before rend applied (it would be daft to reroll the twos).

It doesn't make sense for "reroll successful saves", "reroll failed saves" or the like.

[Nico]

Quote

I think R/P/S is a MUCH worse approach to balance than a Look Out Sir type rule, but I'm not saying my solutions are perfect either. 

Maybe I've put it too strongly (out of frustration). All I'm saying is that there are few reasons not to go bunker gunlines now - particularly with TK safely entombed by the crushing points changes. It's not often that you're going to be starting down a Verminlord Deceiver and 5 units of 30 Plaguebearers who just want to be friends and hug you on the objectives. There are counters, but they aren't commonplace.

Some more prominent counters in factions other than one of the best pew pew armies, i.e. Stormcast Eternals, would be nice.

Oddly enough I suspect Fyreslayers could do quite well against the Hurricanum plus Kurnoth spam. Make them go first, nothing on the table except your heroes and 5 Hearthguard from Lords of the Lodge chilling behind a building in a corner). Pop up 30 Auric Hearthguard and two units of 30 Vulkites - shoot off the Hurricanum with the Aurics, Charge the Vulkites in (it's pretty reliable with the reroll). Do 5 impact hits to each unit of Kurnoths and generally flood the objectives. Use Lords of the Lodge to rig the initiative roll - hopefully at least 2 heroes survived (this should not be comped out of the game now that Kairos has been specifically nerfed, being able to affect the initiative roll is actually a soft counter to single drop armies (Stormcast and Sylvaneth in particular), which aren't exactly underperforming right now). Then the bit that really hurts is the second wave of pew pew with reroll wounds and +1 to hit on the Aurics and a vast wave of 90 axes (no rerolls on the saves vs pew pew), then more choppy).

[Gauche]

That Fyreslayers build is exactly what someone said they wanted to run against me, same exact build. I think it's likely to win and that's where the conversation keeps getting weird. My list is super beatable, as are the others, if you sell out to beat them. But that's not viable in a tournament setting, which is what super hard lists are intended for. Who wants to enter a 3-5+ round event to beat one or two specific builds? You'd open up so many other holes in your army.

That's where the balance issues can come from.

[redbeardboss]

rerolls are always before modifiers. its in the rules. so if you have to reroll 6+s you do NOT need to reroll 5's even though you have a +1 to hit.

[Thostos]

  I would rather them go the way of adjusting point values,after all its what the points are for in the first place.

 We all knew the Arrer Boyz points were too low to start with,,they are 5 pts a wound for a solid 2 shot profile that even has a 6+ save..Sheese they are cheaper per wound than Zombies that have no save and pitiful combat stats.Bottom line is Arrer Boyz need to bump up at least to 140..even 160 per warscroll.

  The T-Tusks full profile with its auto 6 morts was always over the top,either change that damage profile to d3+3 or push its points up to 400 or so.In this case I would rather see the damage profile change but I know they wont do that.

[Gauche]

1 minute ago, Thostos said:

  I would rather them go the way of adjusting point values,after all its what the points are for in the first place.

 We all knew the Arrer Boyz points were too low to start with,,they are 5 pts a wound for a solid 2 shot profile that even has a 6+ save..Sheese they are cheaper per wound than Zombies that have no save and pitiful combat stats.Bottom line is Arrer Boyz need to bump up at least to 140..even 160 per warscroll.

  The T-Tusks full profile with its auto 6 morts was always over the top,either change that damage profile to d3+3 or push its points up to 400 or so.In this case I would rather see the damage profile change but I know they wont do that.

That's the problem, they will only balance points unless they release a new book. I hope one day GW embraces full digital and realized books are pretty much for collectors at this point. Should be updates every 6 months on Warscrolls but they don't care about the rules aspect of the game by their own words. :[

I'd be fine if things got more expensive but I'd certainly have a nice looking Destruction army to sell.

[Carnelian]

Interesting discussion chaps.

I think the most interesting and quickest way to balance the game for tournament play at the moment is to not allow any battalions of any sort.

I'm sure that will lead to some other lists becoming more powerful but it does reduce the ceiling on the top level of power.

[Carnelian]

1 minute ago, Gauche said:

they don't care about the rules aspect of the game by their own words. :[

I that used to be true but is out of date now! I think that via the warhammer community, Facebook, white dwarf and warhammer tv, they've made it clear they are much more interested in feedback to make the rules for the games a good as possible.

[Gauche]

Just now, Carnelian said:

I that used to be true but is out of date now! I think that via the warhammer community, Facebook, white dwarf and warhammer tv, they've made it clear they are much more interested in feedback to make the rules for the games a good as possible.

I've been around GW a long time and I need more convincing. The game didn't even launch with points...that speaks volumes. When I see them go full digital, do regular balance updates, and give some love to competitive minded players I will become a believer. But I am fairly jaded to be honest.

[rokapoke]

9 minutes ago, Gauche said:

I've been around GW a long time and I need more convincing. The game didn't even launch with points...that speaks volumes. When I see them go full digital, do regular balance updates, and give some love to competitive minded players I will become a believer. But I am fairly jaded to be honest.

Not caring about points =/= not caring about rules. A release without point values indicates (to me, anyway, and I only started with AoS) a lesser interest in tournament-level competitive play, but does not suggest that GW doesn't care about the rules. They just aren't necessarily going "all in" (or very far at all, rules-wise) to ensure balance. 

[Nico]

Quote

rerolls are always before modifiers. its in the rules. so if you have to reroll 6+s you do NOT need to reroll 5's even though you have a +1 to hit.

GW use purposive construction these days (like the interpretation of every other document in the rest of England & Wales) - not strict literalism. It specifically says reroll dice which are 6 or more (i.e. after modifiers, as it isn't possible to roll a 7). When two rules clash like this, taking an interpretation of the rules that leads to absurdities here and which would lead to other absurdities (like the Paradoxical Shield being entirely a buff, rather than a trade off) just to put a rule (note that this is an older rule as well) on a pedestal is not how AoS is or should be played.

[daedalus81]

1 hour ago, Gauche said:

That's the problem, they will only balance points unless they release a new book. I hope one day GW embraces full digital and realized books are pretty much for collectors at this point. Should be updates every 6 months on Warscrolls but they don't care about the rules aspect of the game by their own words. :[

I'd be fine if things got more expensive but I'd certainly have a nice looking Destruction army to sell.

Azyr provides the official channel where that could happen.