How do you beat Kunnin' Rukk mixed?

[WoollyMammoth]

I played this list:
- 3 thundertusk huskard
- Savage boss
- 40 man kunnin rukk archers
- 2 units of 20 screen goblins with fanatics
- 1 unit of screen orruks

The army is 240 shots at 4+/4+ and 18 mortal wounds from 18"

Against my stormcast, I charged first turn with 2 paladin units, fulminators and prosecutors. one fanatic stopped me for the most part so I did mostly nothing, then all of it was dead after his shooting.

I was at a big disadvantage this game because escalation lets him basically take the corner so I have no way to get to him, and puts him especially far back so my shooting is all out of range. 

The only thing i can think of would be to keep my entire army in the celestial realm and make him move up, create room for me then strike down and hope to get some charges in the right places. 
 

[Carnelian]

12 hours ago, WoollyMammoth said:

Against my stormcast, I charged first turn with 2 paladin units, fulminators and prosecutors. one fanatic stopped me for the most part so I did mostly nothing, then all of it was dead after his shooting.
 

Fanatics are a pain but they have been FAQed to clarify that all fanatics must be released from a unit at the same time and must be released as a unit that remains in coherency. 

From his points he can only afford 2 fanatics. Also not sure how a single fanatic managed to prevent your whole army charging! But they are definitely a pain anyway.

As far as I am aware (unless I've missed something - probably!) the kunnin ruk archers will be at 5+/4+ exploding on sixes from the big boss ability. That unit alone can push out 240 shots a turn (120 shots in hero phase and 120 in shooting phase). Each phase they will put out an average of 20 rend - rules. Their weakness is their rend- Castellant and mystic shield etc are your friends here.

However, due to their high to hit roll required, any "to hit" debuffs will hit them hard E.G.  Lord Relictor or Tempestos (or both!). One -1 to hit puts them down to 10 rend -a turn while a -2 modifier prevents them hitting entirely. Although they are both fairly short ranged they can either deploy in the celestial realms or shoot over other units to get to them. 

Alternatively, focus on the savage big boss with mobile and shooting units and rain of stars type attacks. He is quite squishy and once he is dead that prevents them shooting twice a turn and so halves their output.

However, dealing with three thundertusks at the same time really stinks as their mortal wounds output hits low model count elite armies like stormcast very hard. Not sure what you can do against them except try and take 3 or more wounds off each one as quick as you can to prevent the auto six wounds. 

So I guess you need to focus on building sn army that is able to reliably put out 9 wounds at range and some debuffs to hit against the ruk archers.

Good luck next time! Hopefully Generals Handbook 2 will see a bit of an increase for all the units you play against as they are very mean!

[WoollyMammoth]

he had two fanatics, he only needed two. One jumped out in the middle of two paladins that came down with hammerstrike. I needed them together so its not hard for him to hit both of them. My Prosecutors charged but they arent doing much especailly with netters. My Fulminators made a charge so just barely one of them could get into range of a thundertusk, but with -1 from thundertusk and another -1 from the netter, i was not able to do any damage.

Kunnin Rukk hits on 4+/4+ with some ability. I hit them with relictor once but it was too late. 

Even if i were to do 9 damage to get them all to D6 wounds, they all heal D3 in their hero phase, so its right back to 18 flat mortal wounds in the shooting phase.

Seems the best thing to do is kill the general asap, but you have to do that while also killing at least one thundertusk. I don't really see any path to victory here.

[ledha]

the mystic light which force the opponent to reroll 6 to hit is awesome

 

i would say : focus the big monsters and ignore the archers. Some melee units :protectors, fulminators, the staunch defender ability for your general, two mystic light (reroll 6 to hit at range and ranged units (judicator or sniper). Inflict a few wound on the thunderstuk before the attack with your ranged units, then rush to them. They die pretty quickly, and orruk archer will need a 5-6 to hit you at range, while being forced to reroll 6, while facing a whole 1+/3+ army.

I would say, keep your close combat unit in the celestial realm, so you can charge from the side and/or bhind : 40 goblin can't screen a whole army.

It just theory of course. Everything is harder when you face the harsh reality

 

or if you want to lol a bit : take two stardrake (with mirrorshield for the big baddy and staunch defender) and the vexxilor, stay in a corner of the map at the beginning, snipe the hero and weaken the thunderstuck with rain of star+meteoric banner turn one and then watch the ennemy army crumble (no general : no double shot, no destruction move, no command ability preventing ennemy to run) while they have a -2 to hit your stardrake

[WoollyMammoth]

@ledha
I had the lantern (Lantern of the Tempest).  it was protecting everything that didn't die (pic1). I should have kept my entire army in it. After he killed half my army, he had no good targets to shoot at. He had something that they were 4+/4+

I tried to go around the side to hit the Thundertusk. The Fulminators and Prosecutors actually did come down from the celestial realm,
but unfortunately two units of goblins were protecting the entire army (pic2) so there was no path to not get stopped by a fanatic

My general had a mirrorshield (pic3) and since hes a dracoth guy, that means they would hurt themselves to shoot at me. I also had fulminators (pic5), but they got stuck on a netter and then died by thundertusk. This pic was right after the fanatic that stopped both paladins died.

The way to beat them is obviously to kill the general. But I had no way to touch him (little guy in the middle of the Thundertusks in pic 5). Due to Escalation, he was way out of 24" for my Judicators and even 30" for my Raptors.

Escalation totally screwed me here, he was deployed in fortification and there was nothing I could do. But i was too agressive against his army and not aggressive enough against his General. I should have deployed enough things in the celestial realm to force him to go first and forfeit his defensive position. I was already winning on objectives being 3-1 first turn, I could have forced him to spread out and address that.

I should have:
-Held enough units back to force him to go first.
- easily take at least 2 objectives forcing him to lose if he dosent move
- use the room to strike in my archers to be in range of the general to kill him asap
- focused on the thundertusks only while his army is essentially screwed.

This would have helped me. I was trying to be agressive (Ben Curry said in a recent daily that you have to be aggressive with gunlines) but this is an army that will get you killed unless you can wait patiently for the best opening possible, and make them walk around by themself until then, then take out their general asap to manage them.

[TerrorPenguin]

If they want to play that list again just find someone else.

Friends don't let friends play kunnin rukks

[Thostos]

 You played against a very filthy list,,not much you can do about it.Your opponent is using probably the most cost effecient damage dealers in the game and with proper support.

  I hope that these units are getting a close look by the GH2 team,,T-Tusks have been cheese from day one,even in open play and getting 20 wounds of models with a solid shooting stat for only 100 points is rather broken.

 

[BURF1]

Moar longstrikes, once the thundertusks are dead the fulminators will kill the rest of his army by themselves. That said this particular destruction variant is one of the nastiest armies in the game, I wouldn't feel too bad losing a game to one played well.

[Carnelian]

12 hours ago, WoollyMammoth said:

I should have deployed nough things in the celestial realm to force him to go first and forfeit his defensive position. 

I should have:
-Held enough units back to force him to go first.

I'm not sure this would have worked.  You still need to set up your units one at a time unless they are in a battalion, so you won't necessarily finish setting up jmfirst just by deploying in the celestial realms. At least that's my understanding 

[Thostos]

5 hours ago, Carnelian said:

I'm not sure this would have worked.  You still need to set up your units one at a time unless they are in a battalion, so you won't necessarily finish setting up jmfirst just by deploying in the celestial realms. At least that's my understanding 

 Yeah,it doesnt work like that.."Setting up" in the Celestial Realm is still a drop..as in either individual warscrolls or whole battalions.

[mmimzie]

If your using warrior bros  to charge the arrow unit from all sides. Fantactics can only do do much, and i think you can set your self up within 3" with  the knight?? So skip the charge all together.

 

Nee vangusrd raptor can out range most of thier shooting outside of the fly move. They will also take many orcs appart. 

 

The various dracoth riders backed by any +1 armor support even more so eith the self healing one can run up and  punch the arrow boys as well.

[ledha]

or take two stardrake and two vexxilor, with a bunch of liberators and judicators. Kill his heroes and weaken his thunderstuk with rain of star and the two meteoric standards. Like him, hide in a corner of the map. The main difference is that you have unlimited range and no line of sight required mean you one shot his general turn one and can horribly damage his others units (making those low bravery goblinflying away) turn after turn before he make anything

[Gauche]

On 3/10/2017 at 2:29 PM, WoollyMammoth said:

I played this list:
- 3 thundertusk huskard
- Savage boss
- 40 man kunnin rukk archers
- 2 units of 20 screen goblins with fanatics
- 1 unit of screen orruks

The army is 240 shots at 4+/4+ and 18 mortal wounds from 18"

Against my stormcast, I charged first turn with 2 paladin units, fulminators and prosecutors. one fanatic stopped me for the most part so I did mostly nothing, then all of it was dead after his shooting.

I was at a big disadvantage this game because escalation lets him basically take the corner so I have no way to get to him, and puts him especially far back so my shooting is all out of range. 

The only thing i can think of would be to keep my entire army in the celestial realm and make him move up, create room for me then strike down and hope to get some charges in the right places. 
 

Was this against me? I literally play this exact list and was in this exact scenario last....Thursday. O_O

 

Upon reading the thread, it was against me. Weird.

 

I actually did a Battle Report on this game and there were things that can be done. One is more optimization, my list is meant for Tournament play and you list was a lot fluffier. Judicators just seem so much better than the Vanguards in most matchups and the Fulminators do not seem strong into most things. That was a lot of points I didn't have to care much about.

Also, 200pts had to babysit Objectives and they had no guns. Immediately you're using 1800 against my 2000 and I'm already advantaged in list building. Now you did get kinda screwed on the Scenario with that, usually the Judicators could babysit an Objective, but I was in a similar position where I had to concede points and then take ground later in the game.

Lastly, you did play very passively. Running into my guns piecemeal is exactly what my army loves to see, so you dropped some stuff in my face and I dealt with it. Wave two came, dealt with it. I was allowed to project 100% of my force against 50% of your force over time.

To anyone saying the list is cheese, it is. It is built to win, only. The game we played was tournament practice so that's what I played. I also hope it gets nerfed because it's a bad list for the game, I've found nothing that I feel disadvantaged against except maybe 18+ Kurnoth Hunters all sitting in Wildwoods. Shooting is simply too powerful in AoS and needs to be taxed appropriately, until it is gunlines will dominate among those who take the hardest lists possible.

[Nico]

Stormcast have hard counters to the pew pew Arrers - Fulminators, Protectors, Mirror Shield and Lantern of The Tempest.

Try to double turn them and drop 2 Husktusks with pew pew.

Or have Gryph Hounds near your charging units - when Fanatics set-up they get shot off by anything with pew pew.

Not an easy match up.

[Gauche]

24 minutes ago, Nico said:

Stormcast have hard counters to the pew pew Arrers - Fulminators, Protectors, Mirror Shield and Lantern of The Tempest.

Try to double turn them and drop 2 Husktusks with pew pew.

Or have Gryph Hounds near your charging units - when Fanatics set-up they get shot off by anything with pew pew.

Not an easy match up.

Can the Gryph Hound "Deep Strike" as part of any of the Battalions and/or by itself? Otherwise it will not get delivered, I don't have the book in front of me though.

I don't think any of the above mentions are hard counters in the traditional sense but they are soft counters. Issue is making a list with all those elements that doesn't get smashed by many, many more army builds. Double Turn in this sense would also require either being forced to go second with the Destruction Player ending their turn with multiple Thundertusks in threat range and the shooting elements having taken no meaningful losses, then winning Initiative OR winning two Initiative rolls back to back and still taking no meaningful losses over those Battle Rounds.

[Thostos]

2 hours ago, Gauche said:

Was this against me? I literally play this exact list and was in this exact scenario last....Thursday. O_O

 

Upon reading the thread, it was against me. Weird.

 

I actually did a Battle Report on this game and there were things that can be done. One is more optimization, my list is meant for Tournament play and you list was a lot fluffier. Judicators just seem so much better than the Vanguards in most matchups and the Fulminators do not seem strong into most things. That was a lot of points I didn't have to care much about.

Also, 200pts had to babysit Objectives and they had no guns. Immediately you're using 1800 against my 2000 and I'm already advantaged in list building. Now you did get kinda screwed on the Scenario with that, usually the Judicators could babysit an Objective, but I was in a similar position where I had to concede points and then take ground later in the game.

Lastly, you did play very passively. Running into my guns piecemeal is exactly what my army loves to see, so you dropped some stuff in my face and I dealt with it. Wave two came, dealt with it. I was allowed to project 100% of my force against 50% of your force over time.

To anyone saying the list is cheese, it is. It is built to win, only. The game we played was tournament practice so that's what I played. I also hope it gets nerfed because it's a bad list for the game, I've found nothing that I feel disadvantaged against except maybe 18+ Kurnoth Hunters all sitting in Wildwoods. Shooting is simply too powerful in AoS and needs to be taxed appropriately, until it is gunlines will dominate among those who take the hardest lists possible.

 First off I want to thank you for posting this:)

   My area has many more competative players as well and im seeing similar lists making an appearance,,not quite as optimized as yours is but still very effective.

   As far as game balance goes,yes it would be nice to see some adjustments on these units,,or perhaps to rules as a whole..over time im sure there will be.However in the near term,one solution I think that works well in terms of tournament play,is having favorite opponent votes added in to determine event winners.This works in places like were im at as we use pairing software and have our rankings tracked on a website via the ITC.This allows TO`s to run their events with a minimum of comp and still allow casuals and competative players to have a good time.The competatives get their wins and rankings bump while the casuals have a shot at getting event prizes.The recent LVO was a great example of this.Now im not saying you wouldnt be getting any favorite opponent votes in an event such as this,,just that it would be harder to attain seeing as your list would pretty much shoot most players off the board before they could do much of anything...im sure of course you could tone back your play a bit though,heh.

 

[Gauche]

Just now, Thostos said:

 First off I want to thank you for posting this:)

   My area has many more competative players as well and im seeing similar lists making an appearance,,not quite as optimized as yours is but still very effective.

   As far as game balance goes,yes it would be nice to see some adjustments on these units,,or perhaps to rules as a whole..over time im sure there will be.However in the near term,one solution I think that works well in terms of tournament play,is having favorite opponent votes added in to determine event winners.This works in places like were im at as we use pairing software and have our rankings tracked on a website via the ITC.This allows TO`s to run their events with a minimum of comp and still allow casuals and competative players to have a good time.The competatives get their wins and rankings bump while the casuals have a shot at getting event prizes.The recent LVO was a great example of this.Now im not saying you wouldnt be getting any favorite opponent votes in an event such as this,,just that it would be harder to attain seeing as your list would pretty much shoot most players off the board before they could do much of anything...im sure of course you could tone back your play a bit though,heh.

 

I'm extremely against comp in tournaments, always have been and always will be. That's just my opinion though. At a tournament I am there to win, my best against your best and we see where the dice fall. It is very frustrating to spend money and time at an event and have to buy new models because of comp or list restrictions, or worry that you'll not get enough votes to be in the running.

I've said this in other threads but I think any large tournament should have several prizes, Best Overall, Best General, Best Painted, etc. Best Overall should always be everything combined, General should be straight Wins and Losses. If you want Best Overall then you need to worry about getting votes for Sportsmanship and that usually means a softer list.

I appreciate what you're saying but the reality is in such an event no one would vote for me. That's something I go into a tournament knowing, my opponent might have a really bad time. That's why whenever I play a casual game I give them the option of many different lists but tournaments aren't casual games in my opinion. If they are then conventions and similar sized events should have different flavors of tournaments akin to what other game systems do.

Sorry for getting off topic but I have very strong opinions about tournaments and how they're structured, being a long time TO and competitive player. They're just that though, opinions. It's something I'd like to write a longer form post or make a video about.

[BURF1]

4 hours ago, Gauche said:

Can the Gryph Hound "Deep Strike" as part of any of the Battalions and/or by itself? Otherwise it will not get delivered, I don't have the book in front of me though.

I don't think any of the above mentions are hard counters in the traditional sense but they are soft counters. Issue is making a list with all those elements that doesn't get smashed by many, many more army builds. Double Turn in this sense would also require either being forced to go second with the Destruction Player ending their turn with multiple Thundertusks in threat range and the shooting elements having taken no meaningful losses, then winning Initiative OR winning two Initiative rolls back to back and still taking no meaningful losses over those Battle Rounds.

Everything in the stormcast army can deepstrike. Also to the previous poster who mentioned it both the knight azyros and warrior brotherhood are dead after the newest book.

[redbeardboss]

celestant prime shooting would just wreck an army that bundles up like that lol. and the horn blower hero

[BURF1]

4 minutes ago, redbeardboss said:

celestant prime shooting would just wreck an army that bundles up like that lol. and the horn blower hero

The thundertusks heal 3d3 per turn with 3 of them alive and the heraldor would never survive more than one round of shooting. I suppose if you had 5 heraldors and  the prime alongside a few longstrikes it would work if you passed every single scions of the storm roll and your opponent didn't get to see your army list or any of your models before the game starts.

[Gauche]

Yeah people underestimate this list quite a bit at times. Mortal Wounds is the worst way to attack the Battalion. The Orruks alone are 80 Wounds, and as others have said the Thundertusks heal very reliably unless they start dying off. It is also harder than most think to get the first punch in since the Thundertusks and Arrowboys shoot 18", both get a Rampaging Destroyer move, and move 8"/5" respectively. Arrowboys can also forgo their double shooting to move twice, 28" +1d6" reaches out and touches almost everything.

[Carnelian]

7 hours ago, Nico said:

Or have Gryph Hounds near your charging units - when Fanatics set-up they get shot off by anything with pew pew.

Great idea! I never thought of doing that before! This might work particularly well with prosecutors.

Also, I love the 3d6 charge for hammer prosecutors - means they have a very good chance of deep striking and then getting a successful charge off

[Gauche]

6 hours ago, Carnelian said:

Great idea! I never thought of doing that before! This might work particularly well with prosecutors.

Also, I love the 3d6 charge for hammer prosecutors - means they have a very good chance of deep striking and then getting a successful charge off

Very interesting tech, I'd like to play against it. As far as I know the Battalions that let you drop closer don't allow for Gryph Hounds though so it's still 9" Charges, not as bad for some Units of course. Otherwise the 3+ rolls have to line up and that's not reliable. Pretty easy to deny landing zones to anything that comes in but being able to get into the Grots is a start.

[Louzi]

17 hours ago, Gauche said:

Was this against me? I literally play this exact list and was in this exact scenario last....Thursday. O_O

 

Upon reading the thread, it was against me. Weird.

 

I actually did a Battle Report on this game and there were things that can be done. One is more optimization, my list is meant for Tournament play and you list was a lot fluffier. Judicators just seem so much better than the Vanguards in most matchups and the Fulminators do not seem strong into most things. That was a lot of points I didn't have to care much about.

Also, 200pts had to babysit Objectives and they had no guns. Immediately you're using 1800 against my 2000 and I'm already advantaged in list building. Now you did get kinda screwed on the Scenario with that, usually the Judicators could babysit an Objective, but I was in a similar position where I had to concede points and then take ground later in the game.

Lastly, you did play very passively. Running into my guns piecemeal is exactly what my army loves to see, so you dropped some stuff in my face and I dealt with it. Wave two came, dealt with it. I was allowed to project 100% of my force against 50% of your force over time.

To anyone saying the list is cheese, it is. It is built to win, only. The game we played was tournament practice so that's what I played. I also hope it gets nerfed because it's a bad list for the game, I've found nothing that I feel disadvantaged against except maybe 18+ Kurnoth Hunters all sitting in Wildwoods. Shooting is simply too powerful in AoS and needs to be taxed appropriately, until it is gunlines will dominate among those who take the hardest lists possible.

You can't win 100.000 $ winning a AOS tournament. Therefore (my opinion) people playin such lists ruin the hobby and have some serious problems...

[Gauche]

1 minute ago, Louzi said:

You can't win 100.000 $ winning a AOS tournament. Therefore (my opinion) people playin such lists ruin the hobby and have some serious problems...

That is your opinion and you're welcome to it. I do not share it.