Retributors and Starsoul Maces

[ADDriot]

Would it ever not be worth taking 2 maces in a unit of retributors? They look like auto includes to me.

 

 

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[ledha]

starsoul maces are what make the paladin good. Without it, they are overcosted

[Turragor]

If you've a whole combo setup going on like a Lord Celestant, Hurricanum and Relictor with Bless Weapons then all lightning hammers is probably nuts and definitely better than starsoul.

That can be tough to pull off though with moving targets and keeping everything in range of everything else and most people like the guaranteed starsoul mace mws without having those requirements.

 

[AdamR]

Hammers have better peak damage, Maces are more reliable. Depends how optimistic you are!

[ADDriot]

Cool. I have five of the quick build retributors to make but obviously they have no mace options. I'll just paint two of the hammers differently and proxy them as maces.

[Blitzel]

I saw some math somewhere that hammers in combination with the lord Celestant on foot and the lord relictor with bless weapon give a better damage output. 0.5 mortal wound more, plus 50% more normal wounds (not exact numbers, but close). 

So if you go with these characters, hammers are good. But if they are more independant they should bring some maces, in my opinion.

[Criti]

Lower right shows some custom Starsoul Maces I made for my starter box Retributors.

Just pulled those off a string of beads I found at the local craft store and painted them up.

Definitely gives the feel of a mortal wound causing special weapon to me.

Sorry about the small picture.  Apparently, I don't have a closer image on my phone presently.

[mDaro]

I have 10 starter set Pallys. I used two of the Chaos knight ball mace on two and two of the Dark angels maces for the other group. I wanted an actual mace look and the scale is perfect for both. 

[Bradifer]

The 2H GreatAxe from the Tzangor kit could probably work as a StarSoul mace.

[Bedge]

Decimator axes from the Paladin box make decent kitbash Starsoul Maces

[ADDriot]

4 minutes ago, Bedge said:

Decimator axes from the Paladin box make decent kitbash Starsoul Maces

That could be a good option. My first planned list has two units of retributors in it, so I could use the spare axes.

[Veillotron]

The Starsoul Maces are a much better option in my opinion.

They will do on average 2 MWs, compared to the average 1.43 wounds for a Retributor Lightning Hammer, i.e. a 40% increase (FYI, the 1.43 does take into account the 2 attacks, with the hammer doing 2 MW on hit rolls of 6+).

It is true that if there is a Lord Celestant nearby who is a general and using his +1 to hit command ability, the average damage output from a Retributor hammer goes to 2.10. But that 5% increase is subject to your Lord Celestant being a) within 9" and b) remaining alive.

 

The Blessed weapon does not have a huge impact:

1.43 * 50% (the chance of the prayer working) * 17% (the chances of rolling a 6+ on a hit to generate the additional attack) = 0.12 more damage on average.

For units benefiting from the command ability of the Lord Celestant, the impact is more meaningful:

2.10 * 50% * 33% (2/6 chances of hitting 6 or more) = 0.35

So a Retributor benefiting from a Lord Relictor praying for blessed weapon and a Lord Celestant's command ability would generate on average 2.45 wounds per turn, a 23% increase over the starsoul mace. But there are a lot of ifs in there, I'll take the starsoul mace...

 

[kozokus]

4 hours ago, ADDriot said:

I'll just paint two of the hammers differently and proxy them as maces.

This will get you something like that.

[Oppenheimer]

The box only comes with one.

The starter box doesn't come with any.

That is why I don't have two :-p

[Kytlock]

The box only comes with one.
The starter box doesn't come with any.
That is why I don't have two :-p

I just assembled 5 retributors last night and had two SS Maces. You may want to check again.


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[Oppenheimer]

Just now, Kytlock said:

 

I just assembled 5 retributors last night and had two SS Maces. You may want to check again.


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From the GW product page:

This multi-part plastic kit gives you everything needed to build five Paladins, who can be built as Protectors, Decimators or as seen here Retributors. The Retributors are armed with Lightning Hammers - one model can be assembled as a Retributor-Prime, with a specially upgraded Lightning Hammer, and one model can be assembled with a special weapon, the Starsoul Mace. The box contains a huge amount of variety and options - eighteen heads, twenty shoulder pads, nine tilting shoulder plates - with interesting posability making your collection unique. 

I only have the starter set ones haven't actually purchased the box due to this. But it's good to know the GW site is wrong.

[Kytlock]

*snip*

 

The website is wrong. Check the first sprue picture as well. 54-55, 65-66.

 

Just trying to help some folks out. I was worried about the one mace as well, until I bought a box and found two in there.

 

 

 

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[Veillotron]

23 minutes ago, kozokus said:

This will get you something like that.

That is very nice! Which paints did you use? Baharoth blue?

[chord]

47 minutes ago, kozokus said:

This will get you something like that.

have you gotten any complaints about proxying them like that?

[mDaro]

I have 10 starter set Pallys. I used two of the Chaos knight ball mace on two and two of the Dark angels maces for the other group. I wanted an actual mace look and the scale is perfect for both. 

[kozokus]

2 hours ago, Veillotron said:

That is very nice! Which paints did you use? Baharoth blue?

nope. A layer of White scar followed by a generous shade of  Temple Guard Blue with 50% water.

 

1 hour ago, chord said:

have you gotten any complaints about proxying them like that?

Never. Noone asked me anything.

In such a case, i have some arguments :

• That is a convincing conversion that does not bring any misunderstanding compared to other maces. They look lightning covered. 
• Everybody is aware that Starsoul Maces are hard to get for those who got the Start colelcting and starter box and conversion of any kind are common.
• They look better than the original Starsoul maces

 

Custom Special weapons are comonly accepted as long as you made clear what they are at the begining of the game and that they are easily noticeable.

Currently AoS is very friendly so you are very unlikly to encounter someone that will dismiss all those arguments. 

As a last resort,  as rude as it may seems, you can always throw the threat of you leaving the game which is very embarassing in a friendly environnement or even in a tournament.

But forget everything i said, you shouln't even get to the point of trying to convince your opponent.

[WoollyMammoth]

I have been torn about this as well. It depends on your setup.

Two Starsoul is a good well-rounded setup. Where this really shines is against all the -hit stacking that is very prevalent in the meta. Mourngul+Cursed-Book+Neferata. Triple Treeman stomp and Dryad -1 to hit in forests, etc etc. Then you got 2+ re-rollable save models and other impossible to kill jerks in cover. Reliable mortal wound output is always a good thing.

That being said, a Retributor Hammer is one of the scariest weapons in the game. If you get +1 to hit, its more reliable than a mace.

Now there are even more factors. Bless Weapons is going to generate a ton of attacks on a unit of all hammers with +1 to hit, but is going to feel a bit wasted on a unit with only 3 hammers. 

So it depends on what your plan is. If you are planning to use Cunning Strategist + Hammerstrike Force to land X retributors in your opponents face on turn one, then use Lighting Chariot to get your Lord-Celestant within 9" of them before they start pounding, you are probably going to want more hammers. If you are going to use them as more of a self-reliant unit, two maces are a good choice. 

Personally I would go for a mixed option. I have 2 in 10, I can take two units with one mace, or I can make a unit with two maces and another with all hammers. 

Also keep in mind that you are paying 4 points more for each mace in a Retributor squad than any other paladin.

[Veillotron]

56 minutes ago, kozokus said:

nope. A layer of White scar followed by a generous shade of  Temple Guard Blue with 50% water.

 

Thanks a lot!