Does the rise of shooting armies suggest that non-heroes is the stronger General choice?

[TrexPushups]

Given the strength of abilities like Lord of War is it better to leave models like Aspiring Deathbringers home and focus on heroes that do their job without needing to be the general?

 

Especially now that 5-6 wound heroes are starting to feel very prone to taking arrows to the face in the meta.

 

 

 

 

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[Gaz Taylor]

Short Answer : Yes for now.

I'm fully expecting GW to change who can be the General with the next version of the Generals Handbook as well as the metal shifting away from shooting to either something fast and hard hitting or something that can debuff the power of shooting (better saves, harder to hit, etc).

[RuneBrush]

I'm going to be interested to see how the rise of gunline armies changes the what Chaos lists are being used.  I've found quite a few of the character models in my Bloodbound are significantly larger than the rank and files, which means it's all but impossible to hide them in a unit to ensure they get into combat.

[Tasman]

Like many of you, I've been playing Chaos for a very long time. So facing gunnies is nothing new. I'm hoping that in the new GHB the rules regarding shooting into and out of close combat, as well as targeting individual models, will be revised.

[TrexPushups]

I guess my new hero selection will start leaning towards
2x bloodsecrator
2x bloodstoker
Skullgrinder

And a General in either a unit of blood Warriors or if using a list with a 10 strong unit of skull reapers inside that.

Why lose my lord of war ability when I can let the unit that most needs it carry it around with them.

Shame even the toughest bloodbound hero is still incredibly easy to kill as 8 wounds and a 3+ is helpful but not enough.


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[Eldercaveman]

1 hour ago, TrexPushups said:

I guess my new hero selection will start leaning towards
2x bloodsecrator
2x bloodstoker
Skullgrinder

And a General in either a unit of blood Warriors or if using a list with a 10 strong unit of skull reapers inside that.

Why lose my lord of war ability when I can let the unit that most needs it carry it around with them.

Shame even the toughest bloodbound hero is still incredibly easy to kill as 8 wounds and a 3+ is helpful but not enough.


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How are you getting characters to join units? I can't find rules that allow them to do that anywhere? 

[kozokus]

13 minutes ago, Eldercaveman said:

How are you getting characters to join units? I can't find rules that allow them to do that anywhere? 

He refers to the rule that allow any model to be your general, so, in that case, a simple rank and file warrior, impossible to target separatly from the unit.

4 hours ago, Gaz Taylor said:

I'm fully expecting GW to change who can be the General with the next version of the Generals Handbook as well as the metal shifting away from shooting to either something fast and hard hitting or something that can debuff the power of shooting (better saves, harder to hit, etc).

The last edition of the Stormcast book is clearly showing something like that : an item that makes its bearer -2 to hit? a light that force rerolls 6 to hit in shooting? A prayer ok i see it.

[TrexPushups]

How are you getting characters to join units? I can't find rules that allow them to do that anywhere? 

I am not doing that.

I am choosing as my general one of the models in a normal unit.

The heroes are still sitting out on their own like normal.


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[Turboboost]

i think never happened. 
but i think GW can insert some attention camptain rules to protect heroes. 

[TrexPushups]

An example list that I might build in the far future after I have painted the vast horde of minis I have in my paint queue. 

 

[TrexPushups]

This one is vastly more likely to be used since it contains the models sitting in my paint queue

[Wraith01]

I never even thought of that as an option... 

[sal4m4nd3r]

You lose command ability (if your general has one). So keep that in mind. As a rotbringers player, losing the Harbinger of Decay's ability to give all mortal nurgle units a 5+ save to wounds and mortal wounds would be crippling. I guess not so much as he is usually targeted and dead by turn 3 >_<

[Aspirant Snaeper]

Well that's what he's saying. 

As much as the buff for a Command Ability is beneficial, it doesn't help if your commander is so vulnerable. 

Better to just focus on getting Heroes that buff without being the General, then assign the tag to a run of the mill soldier surrounded by ablatives that actually gets stronger by being the General and gaining the abilities that can come with that. 

[Lucio]

The long term solution to shooting armies is to let a Hero join a unit if it shares specific keywords. For example, a Blood Reaver unit might require KHORNE, MORTAL, HERO, whilst a Skullcrusher unit requires KHORNE and CAVALRY

[Eldercaveman]

3 minutes ago, Lucio said:

The long term solution to shooting armies is to let a Hero join a unit if it shares specific keywords. For example, a Blood Reaver unit might require KHORNE, MORTAL, HERO, whilst a Skullcrusher unit requires KHORNE and CAVALRY

That's how you get down the slippery slope of deathstars.  

[TrexPushups]

More line of sight blocking terrain would be a huge help but I would not count on that in a tournament setting.

 

The real scary thing is the amount of shooting that can hit a 40mm base model that is attempting to hide in the back line.

 

Too many shooting units with a threat range of 36+inches.

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[Gaz Taylor]

8 hours ago, Eldercaveman said:

That's how you get down the slippery slope of deathstars.  

Yup. I think it's a great thing that we have a game where characters can't join units. The game doesn't need it

As I mentioned earlier, the issue is how the meta is shifting/shifted to mass shooting. Personally in six to twelve months we will see another meta shift and everybody will be moaning about that. This will be either somebody finds a list to counter shooting or GW release something to change things around. Personally at the moment, I think you need to deal with shooting with either your own mass shooting or being very very fast. One thought is maybe a Chaos Slaaneshi list with lots of Seekers.

[Eldercaveman]

Yeah I'm thinking a mixed chaos list I did put one up in the bloodthirster chat which allows possibly 3 first turn charges but it might be a bit of a gimmick.  I'm going to work on something better today. 

Allegiance: Chaos

Leaders
Sayl The Faithless (160)
Wrath Of Khorne Bloodthirster (360)
Bloodthirster Of Insensate Rage (280)
Lord Of Change (300)
The Changeling (140)

Battleline
10 x Bloodletters (100)
10 x Bloodletters (100)
10 x Bloodletters (100)

Units
10 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch (40)
10 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch (40)
10 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch (40)
10 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch (40)
10 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch (40)
10 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch (40)
10 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch (40)
5 x Seekers Of Slaanesh (120)

Battalions
Changehost (60)

Total: 2000/2000

3 minutes ago, Gaz Taylor said:

Yup. I think it's a great thing that we have a game where characters can't join units. The game doesn't need it

As I mentioned earlier, the issue is how the meta is shifting/shifted to mass shooting. Personally in six to twelve months we will see another meta shift and everybody will be moaning about that. This will be either somebody finds a list to counter shooting or GW release something to change things around. Personally at the moment, I think you need to deal with shooting with either your own mass shooting or being very very fast. One thought is maybe a Chaos Slaaneshi list with lots of Seekers.

 

[Gaz Taylor]

@Eldercaveman I think having a couple of units of around 15 Seekers and a Keeper of Secrets is a nice option as you will get a 1 turn charge off with them if you are lucky (maybe have Kairos and/or Changeling to assist) and use them to go after these units and the KoS allows double pile in! Other options are the classic Sayl with Stormfiends, Clan Skyre tunnelling team, Assassins leaping out of Skaven Characters or Gutter Teams, and maybe a Skitterleaping Deceiver! 

The nice thing is these sorts of answers to shooting are good in other situations 

 

 

[Nico]

Quote

Especially now that 5-6 wound heroes are starting to feel very prone to taking arrows to the face in the meta.

This is why taking unit champions and banner bearers has gone from being a fringe choice to becoming an increasingly vital guard against the Age of Pew Pew armies. Somehow this is controversial (trading having a command ability that isn't inspiring presence for the right to keep your general and hence Command Trait alive until turn two) even though most also agree that Age of Pew Pew can be boring.

If anything, the trend towards Age of Pew Pew is accelerating. Stormcast are now more oriented towards pew pew and defence rather than Mace to the Face. If Steamhead are next, then that's not going to reverse this trend any time soon.

Quote

Yup. I think it's a great thing that we have a game where characters can't join units. The game doesn't need it

I do agree with this point. Of course the worst Deathstar in the game at the moment is still 40 Arrer Boyz with Hand of Broken and the other buffs with the Damned Terrain buff (although there are some defensive counters in the Order Grand Alliance, practically everyone else is autodead if they roll a double on that cast roll for the movement 20 joy). There's some upside - at least it take a long time to kill everything.

[Eldercaveman]

2 hours ago, Gaz Taylor said:

@Eldercaveman I think having a couple of units of around 15 Seekers and a Keeper of Secrets is a nice option as you will get a 1 turn charge off with them if you are lucky (maybe have Kairos and/or Changeling to assist) and use them to go after these units and the KoS allows double pile in! Other options are the classic Sayl with Stormfiends, Clan Skyre tunnelling team, Assassins leaping out of Skaven Characters or Gutter Teams, and maybe a Skitterleaping Deceiver! 

The nice thing is these sorts of answers to shooting are good in other situations 

So maybe it's worth trying to craft the best list with 1st turn charges in it that we can. I did mention a 40k style of play that I used to use with Necrons that Jy2 made Internet famous over on Dakka called Maximum Threat Overload (MTO) and I think daemons will really be able to utilise that. Seekers backed up by a herald and KoS, changeling swapping with Lord of change, sayl and thirster combos, summoned soulgrinders, just need tof put our heads together and I think there could be a brilliant alpha strike lists in there which is always the best counter to shooting.  

[Gaz Taylor]

1 hour ago, Eldercaveman said:

So maybe it's worth trying to craft the best list with 1st turn charges in it that we can. I did mention a 40k style of play that I used to use with Necrons that Jy2 made Internet famous over on Dakka called Maximum Threat Overload (MTO) and I think daemons will really be able to utilise that. Seekers backed up by a herald and KoS, changeling swapping with Lord of change, sayl and thirster combos, summoned soulgrinders, just need tof put our heads together and I think there could be a brilliant alpha strike lists in there which is always the best counter to shooting.  

I think something like that would be ideal and would work well for Chaos. I'm a big fan of Alpha strikes and I think Chaos has the tools to be able to do something reliably like this. We all have to bear in mind though, that the next version of the Generals Handbook will be out later this year, so it will have a big change on how armies are at the moment. 

[Eldercaveman]

10 minutes ago, Gaz Taylor said:

I think something like that would be ideal and would work well for Chaos. I'm a big fan of Alpha strikes and I think Chaos has the tools to be able to do something reliably like this. We all have to bear in mind though, that the next version of the Generals Handbook will be out later this year, so it will have a big change on how armies are at the moment. 

Yeah but there will be at least 2 GT's before then so no point not writing lists because of that.  

[Cookiez]

Well, it's correct to say, that the shooting armies keep in check hero and melee heavy or synergistic ones, like Ironjawz, Bloodbound or Death. How to fix this? Quick combat is an option, but shooting into melee prevents that from being the answer - enemy can just tie your hitters in melee and shoot them turn by turn.  Maybe if missed to hit roll, when shooting into combat, would mean friendly fire, some heavy melee armies could stand a chance.