redbeardboss Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 So we have all read the book 100 times now. What do you see as the big winners and losers. Ill start. WINNERS: 1. Horrors- They get to be apart of all the best formations and dirt cheap. Even 140 points for pinks is cheap because its a 10 wound wizard, 10 archers, battleline 2: Daemon Formations- All the formations with lots of horrors are really really good. 3: Tzaangors- These guys are just sweet in any form. even a min unit of 10 is still getting +1 attack for over 9 models and needs to suffer 4 wounds to lose it. Alot of other battleline units get bonuses every 10 models so 1 dies and you lose it. They can also do a ton of damage and dont need to rely on the formations but the one where they attack in the hero phase would be a great addition. 4: Gaunt Summoner- Maybe the best spell in the game on a 100 point wizard who can now bind himself with brimstone horrors and be really hard to kill Losers: 1, Other Daemons- Flamers and screamers and so expensive points wise and have no formation to help with how much they cost per model. I would try and squeeze in 3 flamers and if ignored can really make their points back. Changehost is an option to help these little guys. 2: Most Tzeentch Mortals Formations- any formation that you have to roll a 6 for something to happed just isnt good. You will be taking these fo rthe extra magic items I feel. 3: Acolytes: outside of formations and being required to take them I dont see these being better than 10 pink horrors for the same exact points. Bad bravery, bad armour, high points= bad time. 4: So many combat artifacts- The book has 24 magic items to use and most of them are for combat but the problem is your choices for who would carry them is not going to make em that much better in combat. For this reason i would maybe add Daemon Princes to the winners because he would be good with a lot of the different items. 5: That Demon Spell that does d3 mortal wounds +1 mortal wound for every 5+: This is just not as good as casting the d6 moral wound spell. ADD your winners and losers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambot1231 Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 Lord of Change looks promising. Can't tell if he gets his beak and claws attack if you give him the sword and ranged staff -Not that you necessarily want to throw him in melee combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbeardboss Posted February 2, 2017 Author Share Posted February 2, 2017 oh ya he is a winner too because he was already good and got better, but it looks as though he has to choose. So its staff and 1 of the others so shooting, sword, or claw. So even for a combat build he isnt that great at it. I like the idea of giving him the item to make his shooting wound on 2+. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreggs Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 Is there an updated warscroll for lord of change? Is he still the same points? He is a tentative choice in my build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbeardboss Posted February 2, 2017 Author Share Posted February 2, 2017 he is updated and 300 points now. if you have the app push and hold the warscroll until it says delete then redownload his warscroll. he got a few more wounds and some different weapon options Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucio Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 Don't care how bad Acolytes are on paper, I want to field my Pyroflame cult damnit! It just might end up with a few more Flamers in it than I'd originally planned that's all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cookiez Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 I mostly agree. Tzaangors are the MVPs now, with another pile in in the hero phase. Durable with mystic shield and reroll spells, killy af (killed stonehorn in one combat + hero last time) - pure awesomeness. Pinks went from unplayable to tier 1,5 battleline. About the formations - daemon battalions are good, but daemons are overcosted and fragile; arcanites on the other hand are really good on the table, but the formations are disappointing, except the tzaangor coven. I would certainly add enlightened on the list, with both builds - skyfires overall damage is not very high, but reliable for sniping 5-6 wound heroes with destiny dices, while enlightened hit hard with large threat range even without reroll bonus. And yeah... those acolytes. Who came up with those absurd points? For me, they are worth something like 100 and with a decent formation bonus only. Last thing - totally agree with the small number of artifacts and powers that help with casting, should be the other way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Percivael Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 The Blue Horrors and Brimstone Horrors don't really excite me. I know you could take 10 of each and have them next to your Pinks to be replenished when the Pinks die but, I don't know. Seems like a hassle when you've already got enough to worry about with a Tzeentch army. I'd be interested to know if anyone thinks they are worthwhile? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cookiez Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 12 minutes ago, Percivael said: I'd be interested to know if anyone thinks they are worthwhile? Blues are the best chaff ever. Mandatory for me. Goes like that - blues in the first line, then tzaangors an inch behind. Blues die, then tzaangors pile in and erase the unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiniJunkie Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 3 hours ago, Percivael said: The Blue Horrors and Brimstone Horrors don't really excite me. I know you could take 10 of each and have them next to your Pinks to be replenished when the Pinks die but, I don't know. Seems like a hassle when you've already got enough to worry about with a Tzeentch army. I'd be interested to know if anyone thinks they are worthwhile? What keeps me away from pink horrors is the need to also pay the points (and paint) for the blue and brimstone horrors they split into. Seems like a pain to be honest, even though I think pink horrors look cool on their own... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honcho Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 I plan on running pinks without blues or brimstone. As mentioned, pinks are a solid and really flexible battleline unit all on their own. Being a wizard is just the cherry on top. I understand that to use them to their full potential I'd need the blues and brimstones but that just seems like too big a hassle, especially in matched play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiniJunkie Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 1 hour ago, Honcho said: I plan on running pinks without blues or brimstone. As mentioned, pinks are a solid and really flexible battleline unit all on their own. Being a wizard is just the cherry on top. I understand that to use them to their full potential I'd need the blues and brimstones but that just seems like too big a hassle, especially in matched play. Ah, good call. What I found odd is the warscroll doesn't say anything in the rules section at the bottom about splitting in two...it just says it at the top which I thought was the "fluff". Am I missed the rule somewhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AverageBoss Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 9 minutes ago, MiniJunkie said: Ah, good call. What I found odd is the warscroll doesn't say anything in the rules section at the bottom about splitting in two...it just says it at the top which I thought was the "fluff". Am I missed the rule somewhere? The rules are on the Blue and Brimstone Horrors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiniJunkie Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 33 minutes ago, AverageBoss said: The rules are on the Blue and Brimstone Horrors. Doh *smacks self in forehead* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbeardboss Posted February 3, 2017 Author Share Posted February 3, 2017 I wouldnt even worry about splitting. id only use it to replenish units or maybe save 40-50 points to do it once. But what makes the blue and brimstones so great is they are so so cheap! and the best demon formation require a lot of units so its easy to do with a few units of either brimstone or blue. plus they are archers and for some reason cheaper than giant rats lol. if you had little walls of brimstone horrors spread out its going to really slow down where the enemy can charge or move kinda like how fanatics work. also some missions you score by having the most models near objective and 30 brimstone horrors is only 120 points. I want 50 of each but im so far behind on building and painting ill settle for 20 of each for now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goodwin Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 Arg. I just went bananas on Tzaangor. Now you guys are making it sound like I need moar daemons! I guess they'll be the next step! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbeardboss Posted February 4, 2017 Author Share Posted February 4, 2017 17 hours ago, Goodwin said: Arg. I just went bananas on Tzaangor. Now you guys are making it sound like I need moar daemons! I guess they'll be the next step! nah tzaangors look really good too. i would get at least 10 of each horrors though because they are great value for the points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue Explorator Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 Remember that the DoT warscrolls are not the only units that can be fielded with the battletome. In that light: Losers: -All Monsters of Chaos. Despite multiple mentions of Tzaangor making use of them, there is absolutely no way of fielding any with Tzeentch Allegiance Sort of Losers: -Regular Slaves to Darkness units. They did not get worse, but they hardly got better, with no new battalions or synergies I have chanced upon, but have to compete with all the new shinies, particularly Tzaangor. Still, I do not see anything in the Battletome beating out Tzeentch Warshrine supported Warriors in the pure resilience department, so I do not think them entirely obsolete. Winners: -Slaves to Darkness Heroes. They get some new toys to play with. I will note that I did not run any of the numbers, but the new abilities and weapons should boost them at least a little. Note that the Lord on Daemonic Mount can be a Daemon Hero of Tzeentch, so you get to play around with the new daemon weapons and abilities on a somewhat smashier base without running a LoC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taketheskull Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 Players that buy the Start Collecting Tzeentch Daemons set are definitely winners, that is a sweet box set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobby Heresy Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 9 hours ago, Taketheskull said: Players that buy the Start Collecting Tzeentch Daemons set are definitely winners, that is a sweet box set. definitely worth it. so much in there and its so cheap when you buy it from a 3rd party supplier. £38 most places in the uk. Dirt cheap! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowgra Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 imho winners are: - horrors, pink and blue in particular, which became one of the best units in the whole chaos imho. mage with 10 wounds? that shoots 10 shots per turn? yes pls. also blue are so useful as chaffs. -loc: become way better and has new toys to play with. gaunt: best wizard in the game at 100 points for sure. tzeentch daemon prince: wizard, that can choose from lore of change, with good offensive stats, that costs only 160 points is a steal. plus he is fast since has fly. losers: fatemaster: i don't really get what it does of so useful, a loc when u cast like 10 spells per turn is miles better, mortal battalion: they are kinda bad except tz coven magister: imho is too weak compared to gaunt, full stop. all the mortal tzeentch in the end is a loser cause it gets close to no love from this battletome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue Explorator Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 I think the DoT Battletome really suffers from being the first of its format, particularly since at points it reads like the format change came very late in developement. I think they really did plan for Arcanites to be stand alone for a big part of developement and only turned around when they gathered the post GH feedback. But on topic, I think the Slaves to Darkness Sorcerer Lord may be another winner. It was a pretty good mage to beginn with and just gaining another spell is quite the boon, add in Artefacts and Tzaangor being a great target for Daemonic Power, I would say he is quite solid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 I really like the Tzaangors but having a hard time coming up with a competitive 2k list since the Arcanite super battalions are crap. Now the daemon side...The Hosts Duplicitous super battalion..possibly the most troll-tastic and competitive thing I've seen. The ability to swap units 27" away from eachother combined with a spell that even pink Horrors can cast that turns hits into auto-fails is nuts. Hit buffed unit coming your way? Noooope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honcho Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 I think Slave to Darkness still offers a lot, even if they don't get any direct buffs. DoT has nothing nearly as tanky (excluding splitting horrors because I'm ignoring it) as a unit of 10 Warriors of Chaos. Especially with the new spell that lets you reroll saves based on how many Destiny Dice you have. Demon Prince offers good mobility and casting. Sorceror Lord is still solid. Brimstones are a great cheap target for the new spell that lets a hero "look out sir" to another unit. 60pts for 10 ablative wounds? Not bad. I'm not entirely sold on any of the battalions, really, but I'm still wrapping my head around all the synergies. I love the DoT book but the cost of a unit of acolytes really sticks out. They'd be usable if they were 100 or 120 for 10. Are we all just missing something? Why are they so expensive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbeardboss Posted February 6, 2017 Author Share Posted February 6, 2017 i feel like we have read the book 5 times just looking for why acolytes should be taken lol. the only thing i can see and im not sure if it works like this but do you roll for the vulture everytime an enemy wizards casts a spell and do you roll for every seperate unit with vultures? still not sure its worth it but if your rolling 2 dice every time they cast it could help drain some wounds off them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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