There should be more to the Grand Alliances than what we have now

[SuperKick]

@WoollyMammoth Fair enough, are the grand alliances imbalanced? in terms of new stuff yes, in terms of being competitive maybe a little? I'm not a tournament gamer but from what i've seen top 10's seem fairly split among the 4. 

I don't think the alliances are BS and anything that offers more freedom is only a positive, no doubt it could be better yes i agree. 

 

[wayniac]

I do think they dropped the ball with the Alliances.  For one, Order has the lion's share, with most of the cool things as well as almost all of the Old World armies.  Which means it's already skewed as chances are the majority of releases they can do will just bolster Order at the expense of everybody else.  Basically the major problem is that Order got several different factions grouped into one, while the other alliances were broken up further (Death especially) and didn't really get much (Chaos got Skaven, and Destruction got Ogres), while everything else went to Order.

It's ended up very quickly into the same sort of problem 40k has, where almost everything is in the Imperium, so the Imperium gets the most releases by virtue of having a good chunk of everything new coming out being able to be used in their faction.  When the results that Order overwhelmingly won the summer campaign last year came in, I don't think anyone was surprised since most of the factions, and a lot of popular old ones (all elves, dwarfs, lizardmen, empire/bretonnia) were under Order not to mention Sylvaneth just coming out.

I really dislike it.  It ends up with the same problem, very hard to "forge a narrative" when half the damn armies in the game are the same faction, and a lot of the cooler ones too.

[TerrorPenguin]

8 minutes ago, wayniac said:

I do think they dropped the ball with the Alliances.  For one, Order has the lion's share, with most of the cool things as well as almost all of the Old World armies.  Which means it's already skewed as chances are the majority of releases they can do will just bolster Order at the expense of everybody else.  Basically the major problem is that Order got several different factions grouped into one, while the other alliances were broken up further (Death especially) and didn't really get much (Chaos got Skaven, and Destruction got Ogres), while everything else went to Order.

It's ended up very quickly into the same sort of problem 40k has, where almost everything is in the Imperium, so the Imperium gets the most releases by virtue of having a good chunk of everything new coming out being able to be used in their faction.  When the results that Order overwhelmingly won the summer campaign last year came in, I don't think anyone was surprised since most of the factions, and a lot of popular old ones (all elves, dwarfs, lizardmen, empire/bretonnia) were under Order not to mention Sylvaneth just coming out.

I really dislike it.

The other thing about this is that it even breaks the game for narrative gamers. There is only so many games you can have of Marines vs. Marines or AdMech vs. Guard where whichever convoluted story you've chosen (it's a training mission; the admech are there to crush an uprising) that it becomes universe breaking. 

That's why all four alliances need love for me, if this becomes stormcast vs. sylvaneth on the table, it breaks the narrative in the rest of the universe. Yes, I know that Order are not all best friends and their defining feature is 'against chaos' but if they are against each other more often than chaos on the tabletop, there's some dissonance there.

I am VERY ready to eat crow when Batteltome: Deathlords comes out next month by the way

[wayniac]

5 minutes ago, TerrorPenguin said:

The other thing about this is that it even breaks the game for narrative gamers. There is only so many games you can have of Marines vs. Marines or AdMech vs. Guard where whichever convoluted story you've chosen (it's a training mission; the admech are there to crush an uprising) that it becomes universe breaking. I'd wager if we took all the games of 40K being played across the world there would be more imperium vs. imperium than imperium vs. xenos.

That's why all four alliances need love for me, if this becomes stormcast vs. sylvaneth on the table, it breaks the narrative in the rest of the universe. Yes, I know that Order are not all best friends and their defining feature is 'against chaos' but if they are against each other more often than chaos on the tabletop, there's some dissonance there.

I am VERY ready to eat crow when Batteltome: Deathlords comes out next month by the way

This is GW, yeah right.  But I agree.  I recently got back into 40k.  I refused to play an Imperium army because I like the narrative, and if I wanted Marine vs. Marine I'd play Horus Heresy.  It's stupid, they give the lion's share to what is the most popular, and as a result the popular stays the most popular, but that at the same time kills the narrative because the most popular are the same alliance.  Even now, I'm thinking of Fyreslayers for AOS because I don't like how Death is being neglected, and the only thing stopping me is the fact it's still Order, so still the same problem of most people playing Order, and how do I justify that in-game?  

It's very frustrating, as it means narrative players often will feel forced to pick something else just to have variety, so it's not all Imperium vs. Imperium or Order vs. Order battles all the time.  It gets more frustrating because for all the talk of narrative games, GW is not doing anything to encourage it and actively discourage it with favoring one group over the others.  I don't want to feel like I'm forced to play Chaos or Destruction or Death (and even Death seems like it would have the same problem as Order, but not as extreme since a lot of splinter groups and such) just so I can have a narrative to my games!  And that's how I feel, like I should pick something I don't necessarily want to play, just so it's not always the same factions fighting each other.

[Mikester1487]

At the end of the Nagash book it was clear (to me anyway) death had a reinvention in the works with the black pyramid being reconstructed, Nagash reclaiming his lands, and telling Sigmar to Buzz off.  

I'd like to imagine all of these releases are telling a story, and it is not yet deaths turn to play a part in the main theme. I speak from a Storm cast players perspective but I love seeing what new toys Sigmar has to deal with the evils of the realms.  

I much prefer the sturdy lawbringers the Storm cast represent to give a bit of hope instead of all this grey area that's doom and gloom.

[Celestant651]

Maybe there could have been only 3 factions. Chaos, (as it is) Order, minus the Dark Elves, and Death+Destruction+Dark elves+BringbackTombKings. It would be 5 original armies plus Stormcast for (Order), 4 original armies (Chaos), and 5 original armies (Death/Destruction). That would have made all the GA's more even and balanced.

[WoollyMammoth]

@polarbear
Thank you. I think they did a good job with Fyreslayers and Sylvaneth. Chaos is kind of more of the same old stuff from old editions. This gets me excited for all the things they could do, like a 'beasts of Ghur' release or like undead going to a realm and turning everything into zombies, and a big zombified beasts release. I think we will see cool new stuff for sure, I just hope it is spread through the alliances and not all dropped in order.

@TerrorPenguin
YES. This was what I thought was coming with the alliances, and - even though it has only been a 1.5 years, this does not seem like the direction they want to go in. Just whatever cool idea comes to mind, tossed in 4 random boxes. I hope as AoS progresses we see more of this organizer direction.

@SuperKick
Death is very strong competitive despite no new models. its not about competition its about spreading the releases around so everyone can benefit.

@wayniac
Exactly, they need more balance. But are they going to release 5 new death armies this year to balance it out? Not likely. Especially if you look at the numbers, the neglect of death make it seem like an unpopular faction. Death is also very niche.

In reality AoS is good vs bad. 
They are focusing on the good, the defenders of the realm, the good guys fighting off the bad guys. This is why they are getting the most love. This is my point about doing something different to fix it. Find a way to split Order into 3 factions, then you got 3 'good' vs 3 'bad' and its all evened out.

Guardians of Azur - Free Peoples, Stormcast, Seraphon
Ancient Races - Wanderers, Dark Elves,  high elves, sylvaneth
Stout Protectors - Dispossed dwarfs, Fyreslayers & new dwafs
Chaos-
Destruction-
Death- 

Then chaos becomes the big faction but that is how it has always been. I would personally separate Skaven since they are probably bigger than Death on their own. Regardless, Chaos is really getting expanded - not getting new armies - its still basically just 4 flavors.  Anyway this would balance it while only changing it from 4 factions to 6. 

makes more sense to me than to release 5 new death books. (Not that I would complain if they did).

@TerrorPenguin
Serve me up a hot plate of crow please!

@Celestant651
That's another idea. Since destruction and death are oil and water for me, i don't particularity like the idea, but it would work for sure. 

[Celestant651]

But Remember three is the classic faction number, from games like Starcraft and Warcraft.

[Turragor]

Title caused a bit of a backlash, understandably.

This isn't truly a complaint about the alliances is it? That's just the imaginary 4 sectioned box to catch the cool minis released.

It's folks waiting for their favourite theme of models.

I think one thing to bear in mind is there will likely never be a kind of release parity as the fluff, rules etc follow the models released and the models released follow business (and I heard the personal taste of the miniature designers).

Personally though, I have high hopes for death. I think there's a lot of awesome potential there and it's telling they're the one still waiting.

Either they've no idea what to do or they've a very very good idea what to do (and good ideas take the longest).

[WoollyMammoth]

34 minutes ago, Celestant651 said:

But Remember three is the classic faction number, from games like Starcraft and Warcraft.

Warcraft had 2 or 4. Only starcraft had 3. Starcraft and Warcraft by the way very obviously have roots in warhammer, as if it was a way to play warhammer as a computer game. Orcs & Humans is only loosely based on empire vs orcs, by Warcraft2 they really got their own identity. Starcraft is painfully obviously based on 40k, tau v marines v tyranid. Blue space marines originating from the planet Terra, and Blue space marines called Terrans....

[Celestant651]

Exactly, most fantasy esc games have 2-4 factions. 

[Gaz Taylor]

@WoollyMammoth - FYI I've tweaked the title of this topic 

On the subject, I quite like the fact we have four Grand Alliances which are then broken down further with different flavours for the various factions. Also with the new Disciples of Tzeentch book, shows an interesting way of taking some models and creating a cool faction with rules. I'm expecting to see a lot more of these books rather than the really focused ones we have seen in the past, as I think it will give GW the tools to release stuff quickly and keep exciting.

I do see your point about all the love that Order (well Stormcast) and Chaos are getting but too be honest that's down to the fact that they are both very popular (last years summer campaign proved this) and the Realmgate wars were centred around these to Alliances. I think in the future we will see the other Alliances getting some love and I'm expecting a similar thread then about those Alliances getting the love  

 

[Vasshpit]

1 hour ago, TerrorPenguin said:

I am VERY ready to eat crow when Batteltome: Deathlords comes out next month by the way

Did I miss something?!!!!

[Kyriakin]

Short-term, I feel they could have been better-balanced, but still Order-heavy, if they had done the following...:

• Brayherd/Warherd in Destruction - Ignore all previous Chaos God allegiances, and reboot them as primitive savages.

• Skaven in Destruction - Chaos is full, and Destruction feels a moire organic fit for me anyway. If GW was dead set on an eventual move across to chaos, make the grand alliance change when that happens. It will make that plot twist feel like a bigger thing too, IMHO (although it might mess up a few Destruction armies).

• Tomb Kings in Death - At least keep them around until you have a viable replacement(s).

Dark Elves are, of course, the tricky one. You could make a weak argument for their inclusion within at least three of the grand alliances, but couldn't make a strong argument for any of them, other than "They hate chaos, so Order".

[WoollyMammoth]

@Gaz Taylor
Can you change it to "the alliance balance is total hogwash"?

@Vasshpit
no just hope. There is no death rumors

[Russellbogentoff]

2 hours ago, WoollyMammoth said:

 

@Russellbogentoff
Already I know you likely play order, maybe chaos. Because if you were deep into death or destruction, its unlikely there was anything you were missing out on before, just a re-organization of stuff you already owned.  Meanwhile order and chaos have tons and tons of cross faction stuff to delve into.   

----

Its funny all you Order players defending that everything is fine. 

I do play order, though my usual opponent plays Death.

I'd actually argue that order have it worse than death in a lot of ways - Death have Nagash, one of the 'gods' of the storyline, have had entire units re-released with round bases, and start collecting boxes. Death have a definite place in the game moving forward, even without tomb kings.

Although order have received some of the recent releases, most of the order alliance is still made up of bits and pieces of former armies from 8th edition. I previously played empire, (using them as Freeguild now), and have no doubt that when humans receive a battletome there will be a lot of changes and I'll probably end up starting again, if not with another army before that ever happens. Same situation with Duardin, same with all three races of aelves. Most of the races in order are still sold on squares, and there's very little information about what they'll look like moving forward. 

 Death may have fewer units now, but they'll be sticking around and you probably won't have to start from scratch when they get an update. 

On another note, I wouldn't be surprised if Humans and Death are released around the same time frame.

[Soulsmith]

I think the issue is the fact that the stormcast are being used to further the narrative. But is this at the expense of game balance? I get it, but do they really need something new every time the plot changes? And if it is true they're getting a new large army warscroll making them immune to spell effects on a +3, then it proves GW wants the stormcast to always be the top tier, as the disciples of tzeentch actually could have changed things.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

[Gaz Taylor]

2 minutes ago, WoollyMammoth said:

@Gaz Taylor
Can you change it to "the alliance balance is total hogwash"?

Had more of a think about it as I wasn't 100% happy with hogwash, so I've tweaked again to something simple and descriptive (aka it does what it says on the tin). Unless Sigmar commands it, I'm not going to change it again (also it's late and my brain is fried).

Cheers

[Veterannoob]

6 hours ago, BlooDeck said:

And it'll probably be Undead Stormcasts.

actually......

[BlooDeck]

Just now, Veterannoob said:

actually......

The hints are there! 

[Vasshpit]

I think this can be summed up in "Rome wasn't built in a day and the mortal realms weren't fleshed out in a year and a half."

[Veterannoob]

Alliances are powerful and full of possibilities so people can play them or not. See no issue here. I've remained a solo Fyreslayer player or a year and 90 games. Sure, want to compete, take a GA, or do so cuz you want to play with the models. All good. For any solo army we knowingly elect to stick to what we have for whatever reason--fluff, probably (or maybe only models one has)--and at least everywhere I've been it's not completely GA all the time. More books that come out, the more solo armies I see. It took me a bit to get used to GA but that's from 20-*cough*cough*-years of Warhammer with single armies.  Not really my thing but might be fun to do for an event or multiplayer or over 10,000 points type of game now and then. 

I do look forward to what's up for 2017. The sheer amount of product GW puts out on all fronts combined is just...staggering. 3 years since the weekly release schedule started and still, wow.

[WoollyMammoth]

@Russellbogentoff
You can argue that order has it worse, but you would be making a weak and silly argument. 

Death has Nagash, a 900 point model that is nearly impossible to field. Now that everyone plays with points the rule of 1 takes his 9 spells and caps him at a max of 4. Meanwhile Order has Alarielle which is 2 years newer, released in the AoS. She can be fielded much cheaper than Nagash, some might say at an extreme discount given that she is a god and acts like one on the table. Order also has the Stardrake which might not be a god but is a huge powerful game changing model. 

Sure, death has had stuff on round bases. That doesn't mean anything. They are such a small alliance that there was not much to repackage in the first place. 99% of my models I had before AoS in the first place, so I had to re-base all of my models, which I would not exactly call "having it easy". Its not hard to put anything you buy on a round base whether it comes that way or not. 

Sure there are 3 getting started boxes for death, but there are also 3 for order, and two of them have models released in the AoS, while all of death is just repackaging old models. I already had all of these models so there is no reason for me to buy them again, but it is a good value.

-The FEC one is nice because, they are the only faction that really works so far, but they are still lacking any custom allegiance stuff.
-The Skeleton Horde is really cool but, the deathreattle don't really have anything, and you are basically getting Black Knights for free while their rules are pretty disappointing so its not really worth it, but they are cool models.
- The start collecting Malignants is great except, whne you buy a box you have also finished collecting malignants - because that is your entire army already; there's not much else you can get other than just buy a ton of duplicate models. 

Rules wise undead is in a get place, they have some powerful abilities and they are fun to play, but they were organized as one of the 4 alliances and since then hasn't received a single new model of any kind. 

[Davariel]

For what it's worth I think GW have done an excellent job with the Grand Alliances as a system. It lets you build armies how you want - you can go with a specific theme or subfaction, or you can make an alliance level force drawing upon a diverse array of units. There are advantages and disadvantages to both, which is exactly how it should be!

Things being imbalanced at current and Death being a bare-bones GA (so to speak... ) isn't a problem with the alliance system so much as a problem with GW's treatment of Death, IMO. 

The only real problem I have with the GAs - and then only with Order and Death - is that they feel too dominated by Sigmar and Nagash respectively. Order should feel more like a loose coalition of factions, each with their own differing loyalties and goals, rather than Sigmar's personal GA. With the various elf and dwarf gods present this shouldn't be a problem, but so far the fyreslayers and sylvaneth have felt mostly like Stormcast sidekicks rather than powerful forces with their own agenda. Even Alarielle hasn't really felt like a god whose standing is equal to Sigmar or Nagash so much as she's just fought alongside Sigmar a bit before fading back into the background! 

Death is obviously a bit different since to a large extent Nagash *is* death, making his dominant role difficult to escape, but I think having alternative leaders/motivations in death would still be a great boon to the faction. And not just because it would be the perfect way to bring back Settra 

[Russellbogentoff]

3 hours ago, WoollyMammoth said:

 

@Russellbogentoff
You can argue that order has it worse, but you would be making a weak and silly argument. 

 

My point was that lots of people are waiting for new stuff for various different factions, whether that's because of the fluff, models or just to see if their army even still exists in 2018.

I feel I'm in the same boat based on what armies I currently have, rather than what is currently available in the Grand Alliances, so I'm planning to start a new army this year to get involved with a 'proper' AOS army. 

I think most people here probably agree with you but you need to chill man!