Crew and Artillery

[Shankzalot]

Question: Can you target artillery crews with ranged attacks, or does the player of the artillery warscroll get to allocate wounds as normal.  

My interpretation is that the player can allocate wounds as normal.  The warscroll reads: "A Cannon consists of a war machine and a unit of 3 duardin crew."

As I interpret it, this is all one warscroll/unit/force org slot, so you don't target the crew or cannon individually.  I have never played an artillery before, so I haven't run into this personally, but it was  topic of discussion this weekend.  If this has been FAQ'd then I totally missed it.  

[Bimli]

23 minutes ago, BaldoBeardo said:

...and what you've just had to do there is create an extra step/process that doesn't exist in the rules. My point exactly.

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what is the extra step I created? 

lets say for example you shoot a war scroll that has different wounds/save I get to pick where I allocate the wounds correct. example would be miners and donkey cart. The donkey cart has 4 wounds where the miners have 1 wound each. I get shot I say ok ill take it with the donkey cart and roll my saves, if I fail all of them the donkey cart dies but no damage is taken by the miners.

Which is the exact same thing as how a war machine would work if the faq was not present. no extra step is created. The enemy shoots i say who within the war scroll will be taking the hits and roll to save and wound as normal.

I fail to see what extra step you are referring to? this is in the rules for allocating damage..... so.... ya 

[Bimli]

On 1/8/2017 at 2:25 PM, Squirrelmaster said:

No, war machine rules are generally worded "If its crew are within…" (emphasis mine).

Unless there's been an FAQ/errata that I've missed, each unit of crew is tied to a specific machine.

I would think the faq overrides this as it states they (crew and war machine) are a separate unit. Based on that the crew can man any war machine... heck they can even man multiple war machine.... If playing a tourney id ask the organizer how to play it. 

[BaldoBeardo]

I would think the faq overrides this as it states they (crew and war machine) are a separate unit. Based on that the crew can man any war machine... heck they can even man multiple war machine.... If playing a tourney id ask the organizer how to play it. 

They have *always* been separate units on the same warscroll. No way to play them as a single unit without inventing steps the rules don't have.
FAQ clarified the issue, not made it worse.
Wording on warscroll is possessive. The crew can only man the machine they come with.

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[amysrevenge]

I think pretty much the only three things that need to be fixed in all of AoS are the wording overlap/ambiguity between "wound" and "damage" (which could be entirely fixed by renaming the "To Wound" characteristic to be "To Damage"), the same with movement (which could be entirely fixed by renaming the "Move" characteristic and action to "March" or some other word that isn't "move"), and re-doing all warmachines to have a single combined profile, with no separate crew (see Warp Lightning Cannon for an example of this done correctly).

[Bimli]

14 minutes ago, BaldoBeardo said:

They have *always* been separate units on the same warscroll. No way to play them as a single unit without inventing steps the rules don't have.
FAQ clarified the issue, not made it worse.
Wording on warscroll is possessive. The crew can only man the machine they come with.

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I don't agree prior to the faq it was clear as per description (cannon for example) - "a cannon consists of a war machine and 3 duardin crew. This would mean they are 1 war scroll and counts as 1 unit." 

They have prior to the faq counted as 1 single unit. And to be honest that is how it should be.

The faq did in fact make it worse imo and was truly not required. war machines should work as per its description

[BaldoBeardo]

I don't agree prior to the faq it was clear as per description (cannon for example) - "a cannon consists of a war machine and 3 duardin crew. This would mean they are 1 war scroll and counts as 1 unit." 
They have prior to the faq counted as 1 single unit. And to be honest that is how it should be.
The faq did in fact make it worse imo and was truly not required. war machines should work as any normal war scroll. aka a sing war scroll is counted as a single unit.

Opponent scores 4 wounding hits on an Empire cannon 'unit' with rend 0.
What's your save roll? Which models are casualties?

Like I said, not possible to do without inventing stages/concepts game does not have.

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[Bimli]

11 minutes ago, BaldoBeardo said:

Opponent scores 4 wounding hits on an Empire cannon 'unit' with rend 0.
What's your save roll? Which models are casualties?

Like I said, not possible to do without inventing stages/concepts game does not have.

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the individual being attacked should be able to pick much like I can pick which model takes damage and which model dies in any war  scroll.

Opponent rolls to hit then to wound. I say the war machine it taking the damage so I roll 4 dice with the war machines save. That be said if it survives and another round of shooting happens i cant take the damage on the crew until the war machine as been killed. 

[BaldoBeardo]

...and what you've just had to do there is create an extra step/process that doesn't exist in the rules. My point exactly.

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[Bimli]

On 1/8/2017 at 1:52 PM, Shankzalot said:

Question: Can you target artillery crews with ranged attacks, or does the player of the artillery warscroll get to allocate wounds as normal.  

My interpretation is that the player can allocate wounds as normal.  The warscroll reads: "A Cannon consists of a war machine and a unit of 3 duardin crew."

As I interpret it, this is all one warscroll/unit/force org slot, so you don't target the crew or cannon individually.  I have never played an artillery before, so I haven't run into this personally, but it was  topic of discussion this weekend.  If this has been FAQ'd then I totally missed it.  

the faq indicates the crew can be targeted separately the so you can not allocate where the wounds go. Example 10 archer say I want to shoot the crew its the crew that needs to save or they die. That being said if the archer cannot reach the crew but can reach the war machine the war machine would be the target.

As per faq war machine and crew are separate units. 

[Kaleb Daark]

@Ben. At least you hell cannon can still rampage after the crew are dead.

i proxied mine as a dread quake mortar for a few games  still not sure about the mortar but I will buy the model

This reminds me of third edition where a war machine crew can go and commandeer another machine.

probably because of this I quite like the idea of separate crew rather than one big wound pool, especially if your crew could commandeer an opponent war machine.

[Squirrelmaster]

1 hour ago, Bimli said:

I would think the faq overrides this as it states they (crew and war machine) are a separate unit. Based on that the crew can man any war machine... heck they can even man multiple war machine.... If playing a tourney id ask the organizer how to play it. 

Being a separate unit doesn't mean that the crew cannot "belong” to a specific war machine. A machine can only be operated by its crew, ie. the ones that came with it, as part of the same warscroll. That relationship between them still exists, even though they are two separate units.

[BaldoBeardo]

You allocate wounds after you make saves.
That's not the same as Dwarf Miners as the only difference is you have a model with 4 wounds.
Your example you determined saves by allocating hits to specific models in a unit.
Because you have models in a unit with differing saves and have to figure out which to use.
That's the extra step you created.
That's not a 'thing' in the rules.
Units make saves, models take wounds.

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[Bimli]

11 minutes ago, Squirrelmaster said:

Being a separate unit doesn't mean that the crew cannot "belong” to a specific war machine. A machine can only be operated by its crew, ie. the ones that came with it, as part of the same warscroll. That relationship between them still exists, even though they are two separate units.

hmmm so the crew for a war machine even though they are a separate unit belongs to the war scroll. So if that is the case would you say that the crew and the war machine count as the same war scroll in which case they are placed at the same time?

what of the case where you take the same war machine lets say 4 bolt throwers seeing as they are the same (points, name, rules ect) would you be able to inter match the crew?

I do see your points of the "belong" part but if they belong to a certain war machine then that would mean they are 1 war scroll no? 

[Bimli]

24 minutes ago, BaldoBeardo said:

You allocate wounds after you make saves.
That's not the same as Dwarf Miners as the only difference is you have a model with 4 wounds.
Your example you determined saves by allocating hits to specific models in a unit.
Because you have models in a unit with differing saves and have to figure out which to use.
That's the extra step you created.
That's not a 'thing' in the rules.
Units make saves, models take wounds.

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I was sure there was some units with mixed saves. Don't the fyreslayers have the berzerkers that can take a shield to get a better save and other that don't for re-roll attacks can you not mix and match?

[BaldoBeardo]

Nope...

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[Squirrelmaster]

45 minutes ago, Bimli said:

hmmm so the crew for a war machine even though they are a separate unit belongs to the war scroll. So if that is the case would you say that the crew and the war machine count as the same war scroll in which case they are placed at the same time?

what of the case where you take the same war machine lets say 4 bolt throwers seeing as they are the same (points, name, rules ect) would you be able to inter match the crew?

I do see your points of the "belong" part but if they belong to a certain war machine then that would mean they are 1 war scroll no? 

When you purchase a war machine warsrcoll, you get one war machine unit (of one model), and one unit of crew. They belong to each other — only that specific unit of crew can operate that machine, and that machine can only be operated by that unit of crew. Not just because they come from the same warscroll, but because they were purchased together from that warscroll. They are part of the same warscroll-purchase.

If I have two bolt throwers on the table, I have two war machines. Yes, they are "the same war machine" in the sense that they are the same type of war machine, chosen from the same warscroll. I could claim that I only have "one war machine", meaning one type of war machine. But if a spell targets one bolt thrower and then talks about "that war machine", it doesn't mean all bolt throwers anywhere on the table.

It's the same as if I purchase, say, two Tomb Legions (a warscroll battalion from the Tomb Kings compendium). 2 Kings, 2 Priests, 4 units of Skeleton Warriors, 4 units of Skeleton Archers, 2 units of Tomb Guard and 2 units of Necropolis Knights. I don't deploy all that as a single drop, even though they are all "from the same battalion", because they were two separate battalion-purchases. Likewise, a unit from one legion cannot claim the battalion benefits from being within range of the King or Liche Priest from the other legion — he isn't their king, or their priest.

[Bimli]

37 minutes ago, BaldoBeardo said:

Nope...

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sigh apologies as I thought there was... my bad

[rokapoke]

43 minutes ago, Bimli said:

I was sure there was some units with mixed saves. Don't the fyreslayers have the berzerkers that can take a shield to get a better save and other that don't for re-roll attacks can you not mix and match?

Look at the Orruk Ardboys, with their "Orruk-Forged Shields" special ability. Similarly, look at the Tzaangors with their "Arcanite Shield" ability. Note that both abilities (that are similar to what you asked about) take place after the saves have been rolled. Those models do not have a different save from the other models in the unit, but have an additional ability when the wounds are distributed.

[DrDemento]

The FAQ also seems to have really nerfed the engineer/cogsmith war machine repair ability - why would anybody ever target the warmachine when the crew has fewer wounds, lower saves, and reduces the machine effectiveness?

I think this needs to be re-faq'd OR lower the costs of artillery

[Sombremine]

16 hours ago, b1ackni9htgaming said:

Additionally, in the FAQ it specifically states that you target either the crew or the artillery piece.

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So does that mean, that per the FAQ, it's the attacker who chose where to allocate the wounds ? 

Or is it still the defender who choose where to allocate ?

[mmimzie]

The crew and warmachine are seperate units. They do not even need to be togwther, and a crew from one machine can crew another.

 

As such you can as the attack select which unit to attack.

[Shankzalot]

Do you pay for 2 separate units when fielding them?

[Squirrelmaster]

You pay for the warscroll. The warscroll consists of 1 unit of crew, and 1 machine (which is a unit of 1 model).

[Squirrelmaster]

17 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

a crew from one machine can crew another.

No, war machine rules are generally worded "If its crew are within…" (emphasis mine).

Unless there's been an FAQ/errata that I've missed, each unit of crew is tied to a specific machine.

[Shankzalot]

Can the warmachine fire without a crew?