Let's chat : Blades of Khorne!

[Twitch of Izalith]

5 hours ago, Fireymonkeyboy said:

On a completely unrelated note, can we get a conversation going about what allies to take, and why?  

I've been taking various combinations of bullgors, doombull and ghorgon in BoK & StD lists lately. Mostly because I like minotaurs and the models are great but I think they fit thematically too and can add a punch to StD lists where you lack rend.

[chord]

7 hours ago, Fireymonkeyboy said:

On a completely unrelated note, can we get a conversation going about what allies to take, and why?  

Leaving aside narrative considerations for a moment (which can justify just about any inclusion, or prohibit it), what are some good ally options, where the loss of synergy is compensated for by new capabilities etc.?  Some obvious ones to me were allied wizards, of one stripe or another (summoning, arcane shield, etc.), and shooting units.  

What got me thinking about this was that a) I love the beastmen models, b) am looking for a way to fit them in, and c) can't find a way to justify it without making my army weaker (and I don't play a competitively optimized list as it is).

What would people take, why, and what makes it worth giving up more sweet Khorny synergy?

FMB

For my 1K army I'm taking a unit of chaos warhounds.  They move really fast (10", 16" if running), and even if they die quick they give me the blood tithe points. 

[chord]

<Ignore dup post>

[Heroflegend21]

I’ve noticed everyone is moving away from Battalions in favor of more units but don’t we take Battalions for quicker drops, more artifacts and possible first turn advantage? So are Battalions really that bad or are the additional units better than more artifacts and quicker drops? 

[Killax]

8 hours ago, chord said:

For my 1K army I'm taking a unit of chaos warhounds.  They move really fast (10", 16" if running), and even if they die quick they give me the blood tithe points. 

Chaos Warhounds can be great for objective purposes and indeed cheap units can mix very well with Blood Tithe, which is also why I like the Allegiance as the benifit for it isn´t lost in that case. After all, Khorne cares not  !

3 hours ago, Heroflegend21 said:

I’ve noticed everyone is moving away from Battalions in favor of more units but don’t we take Battalions for quicker drops, more artifacts and possible first turn advantage? So are Battalions really that bad or are the additional units better than more artifacts and quicker drops? 

Great question honestly! I'll try to awnser the question from my perspective in multiple parts.
- Khorne doesn't have too many 'all inclusive' Battalions, so while we indeed could bring out some quicker drops I've found that we mostly end up with 3+ drops anyway and therefor might aswell not even bother too much with it. Previously this was of little concern because several Battalions where simply good and cheap enough by themselves to validate inclusion. For example Murderhost + Gore Pilgrims before was 100 points instead of 300 and could quite easily become a "2 drop". Now (GH2017) I don't think a 2 drop validates not thaking another 30 Bloodletters for example.
- Our Artefacts are great but mostly matter for our General because in many ways our Command Traits are on the same level as Artefacts. In other words, when we can tool up a General it will be awesome, when we don't, it doesn't matter too much. This is because the vast mayority of our Heroes taken have a Infantry/Cavalry unit support role. In addition if you just want a beat-stick a lot of our cheaper Heroes still have trouble competing with Khorgorath's or Chariots who come out at the same cost.
- Battalions can still be really good if they can include your whole army. We don't have too many of those because Blades of Khorne has more 'Battalions in Battalions' as usual. For whatever the reason we also see that these Battalions that require another have also been increased by a 100 points. We do still have two Battalions who are around in my opinion for fast drop purposes and those would be the Brass Stampede and Bloodmarked Warband. Other choices like The Goretide where great before but now again add up to Battalion investment that equal maxed unit costs.

The prime reason why more units versus less usually matter to us more is because of Blood Tithe points. The moment you go for minimum units, max Battalions and have that first turn but typically work with 2-3 less units as your alternative Khorne army your essentially not creating a massive benifit out of the Allegiance or Khorne in general. Our numbers always matter, a wave of threats usually won me more games as a great ammount of buffs on one unit. The prime reason for this is that Khorne isn't all too survivable with it's big units, which only becomes a problem when you don't have enough of them. 

[Xasz]

3 hours ago, Heroflegend21 said:

I’ve noticed everyone is moving away from Battalions in favor of more units but don’t we take Battalions for quicker drops, more artifacts and possible first turn advantage? So are Battalions really that bad or are the additional units better than more artifacts and quicker drops? 

TL:DR 

• stacking battalions is no longer worth it in a competitive environment (too expensive)
• Murderhost and Gore Pilgrims are the most common battalions atm, later will rarely lead to a 1 to 3 drop army -> mortals players forfeited the strat more or less and go for units/MSU
• artifacts are nice, but change your win-% only by an insignificant amount

[Killax]

2 hours ago, Xasz said:

TL:DR 

• stacking battalions is no longer worth it in a competitive environment (too expensive)
• Murderhost and Gore Pilgrims are the most common battalions atm, later will rarely lead to a 1 to 3 drop army -> mortals players forfeited the strat more or less and go for units/MSU
• artifacts are nice, but change your win-% only by an insignificant amount

Absolutely, it's also because of this that I don't completely understand the way 100 points was added to practically all Battalions.
If a Battalion would indeed include all unit choices and 100 points was added I completely understand the bonus cost for the 'one drop' reason, while even that part of the rules really is something we could make a whole other discussion topic on...

Blades of Khorne is just typical in that the fast mayority of Battalions actually only includes a part of army choices, which in many cases is also actually quite limited in use. Maby if the Bloodsecrator was still stackable more Battalions that include Bloodreavers would have remained more popular, they are a great deal on 240 still IF you have the Totems near.
But it is what it is and I do think we're certainly still capable to compete with at least Murderhost, Gore Pilgrims, Brass Stampede and Bloodmarked Warband (Everchosen). Perhaps Bloodforged and others can also be added to this list if your willing to play with a massive Blood Warrior death star.

To some extend I think there is also more left to explore in the form of the Gorethunder Cohort (not increased by a 100 and Skullcannons are cheaper), Charnel Host (even if you have one unit near your BT it's akin to having a free 5 Blood Tithe points as long as the BT's alive) and lastly it's a pitty the Goreblade Warband (used to be 60) just was removed from Matched Play altogether. As even at 160 points that Battalion specifically would be very interesting to run still as it covers a lot of pieces you'd want to include anyway and would have kept drops low.

[Killax]

As a sidenote, I'd also love to know which Khorne players where at the Facehammer GT event!



Chaos and Blades of Khorne were represeted but I'd love to know if these players also linger around here! 

Cheers,

[Keldaur]

Can you pass a link, it's impossible to read in that format.

[Killax]

14 minutes ago, Keldaur said:

Can you pass a link, it's impossible to read in that format.

Facehammer has it in that format too but yes, a zoom in is very helpful  (ctrl+scroll forward)
Link: http://facehammer.co.uk/2017/10/02/facehammer-grand-tournament-2017-results/

What we do know is some Stormcast lists and some of DoT but what BoK players ran is unknown to me.

[Easytyger]

1 hour ago, Killax said:

Facehammer has it in that format too but yes, a zoom in is very helpful  (ctrl+scroll forward)
Link: http://facehammer.co.uk/2017/10/02/facehammer-grand-tournament-2017-results/

What we do know is some Stormcast lists and some of DoT but what BoK players ran is unknown to me.

@Dan.Ford used a maxed Murderhost i believe.  If you don't mind shedding light, what variation did you make from the prior version?

 

[Fireymonkeyboy]

 

In the latest chapter of my ongoing "I should be marking" saga, tell me about Skull Cannons.  I have two waiting to be painted.  Will I be disappointed?  Or are they the secret weapon of Khorne?  Is the simple pleasure of making "pew-pew" noises enough to warrant the points spent?

FMB

[Dan.Ford]

1 hour ago, Easytyger said:

@Dan.Ford used a maxed Murderhost i believe.  If you don't mind shedding light, what variation did you make from the prior version?

 

I've always taken max murderhost:

Sometime with bloodthirster but I find he dies too easily.

choose the 8 unit groups that suit you. Oh if you do not like losing units and half your army or more most games ,it's not for you.

[MOMUS]

Wish I could've attended, looking at the rankings a half decent BoK player could climb pretty high without much trouble.

 

[Killax]

2 hours ago, Fireymonkeyboy said:

 

In the latest chapter of my ongoing "I should be marking" saga, tell me about Skull Cannons.  I have two waiting to be painted.  Will I be disappointed?  Or are they the secret weapon of Khorne?  Is the simple pleasure of making "pew-pew" noises enough to warrant the points spent?

FMB

Well they are an odd mix of Chariot and Artillery. I dont think they will dissapoint you when you use them as such and roll averagely well. They are pew pew but not sit back and pew pew.

The reason why I dont thake them has more to do with simply not finding the points, though there is no reason to not try it. Dicey pieces have those games where they work out well. 

 

[jazman84]

Sorry, I'm fairly new here.

What does "drops" mean?

[Arkiham]

26 minutes ago, jazman84 said:

Sorry, I'm fairly new here.

What does "drops" mean?

probably mean how many drops you have in the deployment part of the game. battalions can be one or as many as the battalion requires. 

[Retro]

2 hours ago, jazman84 said:

Sorry, I'm fairly new here.

What does "drops" mean?

Each unit in your army list is one "drop" in the deployment phase.

If you have a battalion you can deploy the entire battalion in one drop (all units and heroes listed on the battalion).

This is a big deal because whoever finishes deployment first gets to choose who gets first turn

[Killax]

That's the essence of it. To me 1 to 3 drop armies still have a lot of things to say for them and their Battalions. As above though Blades of Khorne doesn't offer a whole lot of Battalions that do this. In addition many of those who allowed for this by including multiple Battalions (such as The Goretide) have been 'double increased by 100 points'. As before, I don't completely understand as to why this is done. Especially when you look at the sole cheap 'single drop' Battalion Khorne option we still have left from Everchosen. 

However, what's much more important to me now is optimizing the use of our units instead. If your unable to present that 1 to 3 drop this doesn't have to be an issue if you have the numbers to make up for it. It's because of this that I don't particulary try to enforce anyone at this point playing Khorne as having a Battalion as a "must play". With GH2016 this was much more the case because "everybody" did it. Which leads into meta expectances. So far, also with the results of Facehammer GT, I think it remains to true to say that the meta:
- Doesn't include a lot of Battalions, but when it does they often lead to 1-3 drops.
- Does include more Monster Generals as before.
- Does include more "Horde units" as before.
 - Includes slightly less ranged attack units but still enough to deal with smaller (key) Heroes

The result of this for me now has lead to:
- Me considering Khorne Battalions less than ever, if we can't compete with 1-3 drops there needs to be a really good reason to have that Battalion. Murderhost, Gore Pilgrims and Brass Stampede continue to give that reason (but also reduce army build flexability). 
- The inclusion of more Monster Generals has lead me to believe that a single Wrathmonger unit is a great inclusion for every Khorne army, provided they are used correctly.
- More horde units means we have a lot of reasons to try and benifit with our own hordes. Bloodletters come on top for us because they are easy to include, hit very hard and are actually possible the best unit deal we have in our arsenal.
- Our key Heroes still arn't particulary save but looking for alternatives is an option, presenting multiple key targets is step one to a Khorne army's succes.

Cheers,

 

[Biboune]

14 hours ago, Killax said:

Well they are an odd mix of Chariot and Artillery. I dont think they will dissapoint you when you use them as such and roll averagely well. They are pew pew but not sit back and pew pew.

The reason why I dont thake them has more to do with simply not finding the points, though there is no reason to not try it. Dicey pieces have those games where they work out well. 

 

Hi,

I am thinking of building an army with 2 or 3 skull cannons with the Skulls Seeker host battalion. It can double their shots very easely; they juste need to be at 8ps of the Bloodthister or the bloodmaster of the battalion. It seems better than the Gorethunder Cohort.

It is very expensive but 4, 6 or more cannon shots should be a good way to make them less dicey.

But i am still not sure what to get in a 2K list in order to make the list work. I don't think it will be very competitive anyway.

[Killax]

30 minutes ago, Biboune said:

Hi,

I am thinking of building an army with 2 or 3 skull cannons with the Skulls Seeker host battalion. It can double their shots very easely; they juste need to be at 8ps of the Bloodthister or the bloodmaster of the battalion. It seems better than the Gorethunder Cohort.

It is very expensive but 4, 6 or more cannon shots should be a good way to make them less dicey.

But i am still not sure what to get in a 2K list in order to make the list work. I don't think it will be very competitive anyway.

If you have it, give it a try! One of the reasons as to why I think most shy away from Skullcannons is that they have a different 'play' to them as regular Artillery. In many cases the Gore Pilgrims leads to 'easier' ranged damage, despite being 12" shorter in threat range.

To optimize the Skullcannons I think having units moving at roughly the same pace might be essential to their succes. I have not tested them with Chaos Knights or Marauder Horseman for example who can match that pace. 

In terms of competativeness ease of use really plays a big part too. This is where Skullcannons become hard to justify because the whole set up remains dicey. Shooting twice is not guaranteed and having them all in one place limits their tactical melee use. On the other side Skullcannons are more reliable against larger blocks but so is 80% of our army feel free to give a list and plan though, Im all ears.

My current prime plans are all very Bloodletter focused because for me this is where our best Faction deal is. As such I often seek for support for them. This is also why I am quite Wrathmonger focused. 30 Bloodletters bubblewrapping 5 Wrathmongers is a costly (450) deal but the game offers very little that can easily deal with it. In addition units like Skullcrushers and Khorgoraths offer fantastic flankers and flank protection for such Deathstars. This role is one the Skullcannon could also preform but its also more expensive, hence I cant find the room for it all in 2K.

 

Edit: Another thing that's very personal and could be seen as an ugly truth is that I believe our strongest asset for 2K competative play (aimed to win Tournaments) might even come from at least running 90 Bloodletters, 3 units of 30. The prime reason I say this is that they have very few targets where they absolutely can't deal with, in addition it still feels like they should have costed 300 in a vacume so every unit taken to me personally feels like we're getting 30 points for free to spend on additional things. Things that otherwise would "feel" too expensive. Bloodthirsters come to mind here but indeed even a vast slew of Battalions. The inclusion of Bloodletters rewards itself in multiple ways, primeraly in leaving points open to include more units (great for Blood Tithe).

However this perception comes from the rise in popularity of "Teleporting" units thanks to a few Battalions who allow for this. For us, a stagnant melee army, the only way to really effectively deal with this is by essentially presenting many of the same power targets that do not really care for their combat target. In that vein though I can also understand as to why BoK hasn´t had any incredible results yet, apart from @Dan.Ford's consistent high showings with his Murderhost, an army that indeed thrives on Bloodletters. As always though, good play remains essential, even more for us because our threat ranges are limited. Skullcannons and Slaughterpriest add threat ranges but in the end are also very rewarded by playing agressively, meaning nothing in our army can really hang back "savely" other than the Bloodsecrator and arguably the Bloodstoker.

 

[Keldaur]

That's to be expected, otherwise blades of khorne results would be worse than they are now on a format take all.comers like tournaments, it is only natural that an unit which can dish out damage to pretty much anything is a backbone piece, specially since as you said, we lack tools like teleports or shooting, so we rarely dictate how engagements will happen.

[Dan.Ford]

 Skullcannon note:

on Grind their bones ability the extra shooting is only triggered if it done in the combat phase

[Killax]

28 minutes ago, Keldaur said:

That's to be expected, otherwise blades of khorne results would be worse than they are now on a format take all.comers like tournaments, it is only natural that an unit which can dish out damage to pretty much anything is a backbone piece, specially since as you said, we lack tools like teleports or shooting, so we rarely dictate how engagements will happen.

True in many cases, though there are other options (designs) within Blades of Khorne that with the right price could have given us an alternative tactical competative route, one that was more akin to that of the Stormcast, one specifically carried by Skullreapers. Now their cost is 180 and to me it is the perfect example of a unit that actually should have costed 160 points. Because they are 180 however we see that other Rend alternative units usually win out. Even the choice of 10 Blood Warriors would be more common for me to thake as the 5 Skullreapers. Both have a small platform working in their advantage but 10 32mm bases versus 5 40mm bases in many cases thake up a very similar 'virtual space'.

In any case the cool model we do have, which indeed opens tactical variance is the Slaughterpriest who can help dedicating engagements through Blood Bind. For other means of board control we can also look at "meat shields" in the form of Khorgoraths, Chaos Chariots or even Warhounds and Marauder Horseman. The downside of our meat shield tactics however often is that we do not have the ideal long ranged attacks to indeed secure an opponent has to thake the bait.

Nontheless I'm still happy with the tactical variance we can present right now, but I understand as to why players with the intend to win Tournaments might go for Stormcast or Desciples of Tzeentch instead because they have many more pieces who add tactical dimensions. Even the simple Pink Horrors can now become very efficient meat shields if some points are left for Blues or Brimstones. In addition I also hope to eventually convince players of playing slightly more with Bloodthirster Generals soon as this too can act as a point of interest for opponents, medium range ranged support and perhaps more importantly draws in ranged attacks that secure Bloodsecrator survival ever so slightly more. In order to fully comment on them though I'll have to test my WoK Bloodthirster some more. I believe he has what it thakes to be relevant, provided you thake enough Bloodletters. He's not terribly difficult to remove but harder as before (because great ranged units became more expensive) and if opponents succeed in doing so the cost lost is significantly lower. Worst case scenario he uses Lord of the Blood Hunt upon himself and tries to whipe out scary ranged units.

[Killax]

Just now, Dan.Ford said:

 Skullcannon note:

on Grind their bones ability the extra shooting is only triggered if it done in the combat phase

Yup and only on Gnashing Maw, which is why I think there is some saving grace in using him like a Chariot but still 160 is a lot. The only real great way to comment on it is within list context though... The Crimson Crown and Mark of the Slayer effects are easy to miss on paper but can work out in being that small boost it needs.

My guess is that at 140 it be all easier to use or the alternative (personally favoured choice) would have been to have 2 standard Gnashing Maw attacks instead of one. But obviously that could also be said for Burning Skull etc.

The beauty is, and I think you can be the voice for that Dan, is that a lot of things can work provided there are also enough other Bloodletters or Daemon Heroes in the list. To me The Crimson Crown and/or Mark of the Slayer have made the difference in the past, a difference I hope to show more often due to our Bloodthirsters and Bloodletters all being cheaper. 

Cheers!