Let's chat : Blades of Khorne!

[MOMUS]

What's everyone working on at the mo?

Im currently digging out all my unused models and sprucing them up ready for the next ed. hoping that the new rules + point tweaks might let them see some action.

[TheAdequateWargamer]

Bases! Lots and lots and lots and lots of bases.

Bloodletters: 10 need mouldlines scraping + assembling and ive ordered a battallion load more.

Thinking about doing a bloodthrone conversion with a jugger pulling it instead of the front wheel section. So looks more like a chariot. Then maybe convert the massive maw to be an oversized head for the jugger 

Gonna paint up skarr bloodwrath too if i get chance, fingers crossed that as summoning is free, his warscroll now wont cost points for the regen too. 

[Galdenistal]

I'm painting up a chaos sorcerer lord and Sayl to use as allies so I can tap into some of this new magic hotness if needed. Also working on some Khorne marked slaves so Sayl can teleport them behind enemy lines for assassinations.

[JonnyTheKing]

Little update on that 800 point tournament from yesterday! Won all 4 games with major victories and won the tournament! blood and Skulls were claimed for Khorne

[Karol]

Right now am not doing anything, I worry a bit about if and how many models are going to be required to play in 2ed. And I hope they won't nerf bloodreavers and bloodwarriors.

[Killax]

I'm also working on bases and still have quite some stuff to update. Especially want to get the Shadespire Blood Warriors to make the whole army even more characterful basically.

Other than that I'm thinking about getting the Fleshhounds in finecast but I'm not certain if I want to get those. Having said that though I do have the metal Karanak allready so might aswell get 5 buddies who look like him. Though it would be quite logical to see these models updated sooner as later. Or at least somewhere in 2019.

Next to that the BoK Facebook page allready had some nice discussions about how we will be able to influence Magic as the 'anti-magic faction'. I'm looking forward to know if our Slaughterpriests and Mighty Lord of Khorne will indeed continue to be able to Unbind whenever. I'd like that. In that same vein I like the prospect of Fleshhounds becomming more relevant as ever in this edition :) 

[Xasz]

2 hours ago, Killax said:

Next to that the BoK Facebook page allready had some nice discussions about how we will be able to influence Magic as the 'anti-magic faction'. I'm looking forward to know if our Slaughterpriests and Mighty Lord of Khorne will indeed continue to be able to Unbind whenever. I'd like that. In that same vein I like the prospect of Fleshhounds becomming more relevant as ever in this edition

Sadly, Khorne doesn't really feel "antimagic", which is a shame and is probably one of the reasons I'm so frustrated with the faction. 

We sacrifice a lot for our melee prowess (which is debatable as well), we have no magic, no shooting and questionable defensive options. The only extra we have is the Bloodsecrator (anti-synergy if we want to ally a wizard), which is awesome against weak wizards and almost useless against medium to strong ones. With a few exceptions like Skullcrushers, our defenses against magic are pretty much the same as for any other army which is unsatisfying to say the least. (Brazen Rune is not unique anymore and Blood Tithe is super situational)

What I'd like to see is a global protection against spells which target our units. Similar to how the Skullcrusher shield works (maybe not on a 4+ and enemy buffs can obviously still be cast unrestricted). Another idea would be buffing dispel attempt against spells which target units with the Khorne keyword. Meaning, an attempt would always gain +1 to 3 no matter who is trying to dispel.  (or the bonus is bound to the number of Khorne units in x")

As the new edition is shaping up, I don't think Khorne will be relevant initially (not that Khorne was relevant in the past months). If we want to banish a permanent spell after the initial cast, we'll be forced to bring a wizard with us, which is a questionable choice considering synergy.

If prayers will fall under the rule of one or Blood Boil and Bronzed Flesh get the basic spell treatment, we are gonna have an even badder time.

On the bright side, the WoK BT is getting even better and summoning might or might not help. Chargers always striking first is still not confirmed and is in the end a double-edged sword, due to our defensive capabilities being rather weak. 

/rant

I'm currently working on 10 Reavers, 5 Blood Warriors and my Lord on Juggernaut to keep my motivation somewhat alive.

EDIT:

I forgot the realm specific spells, if they are legal in matched play holy moly. They seem really powerful and game winning if they go off.

[kozokus]

2 hours ago, Xasz said:

Sadly, Khorne doesn't really feel "antimagic", which is a shame and is probably one of the reasons I'm so frustrated with the faction. 

I don't kno what you need between 5 different units that can dispells spells, sometimes with +1/+2, the forced rerolls, and two autodispells aviable in the faction.

2 hours ago, Xasz said:

we have no magic,

Whaaaaaat?

First, what is Magic? forgive the blasphemy, but a slaughterpriest is very similar to a wizard that can cast two spells on 6,5+, and only for 100 points. Some armies would kill (how pretty) for such an option. Magic is only "an ability that happen in the hero phase". Your bloodstocker is basically a wizard that cannot be dispelled, cannot dispell and can autocast a spell. I wouldn't exchange the aviability of a bloodstocker for the one of a loremaster.

 

[Xasz]

1 hour ago, kozokus said:

I don't kno what you need between 5 different units that can dispells spells, sometimes with +1/+2, the forced rerolls, and two autodispells aviable in the faction.

Only the WoK has +2 and is not played, but that might or might not change with 2.0.

+1 is carried only by hounds (with condition), which are not played except in maxed out Murderhost.

Both are things that other armies have access to as well, or they just have equal or stronger bonuses on casting.

Blood Tithe is situational at best, due to the inherit problems.

The Bloodsecrator portal is really annoying for weak wizards but can be ignored by stronger ones.

Listing all these things does nothing, if they are either ineffective in an actual game or are not represented on the table.  I don't know against what you usually play, but if you go against a list with medium or high magic, your disruption can be ignored for the most part. Which shouldn't be the case in my opinion, Khorne should surely not be able to shut down every spell but our UNITS should have some kind of basic protection. (remember magic resistance?!)

1 hour ago, kozokus said:

First, what is Magic? forgive the blasphemy, but a slaughterpriest is very similar to a wizard that can cast two spells on 6,5+, and only for 100 points. Some armies would kill (how pretty) for such an option. Magic is only "an ability that happen in the hero phase". Your bloodstocker is basically a wizard that cannot be dispelled, cannot dispell and can autocast a spell. I wouldn't exchange the aviability of a bloodstocker for the one of a loremaster.

I totally agree, they are the closest we have to a wizard or ranged unit but there end the similarities but to be absolutely clear, I consider magic everything that is done by a WIZARD.

First off, the priests do not cost 100 points, at least that's not their effective point cost (Gore Pilgrims is mandatory). That's 145-160 points, if you consider the Bloodsecrator as well, otherwise it is 160-190. (technically you'd have to distribute the 30-40 wasted points for a unit of Blood Warriors as well.)

The two upsides of priests in general are mostly: Prayers cannot be banned and they exist outside of the current rules of one. Latter might change with AoS 2.0.

To make absolutely sure, I'm not saying priests are bad. No, our priests are probably the most developed of all but they are no Wizards. They are not gonna have access to the new realm spells (which seem insane), nor will they be able to dispel permanent spells after the initial cast. The problem are our units, their one dimensional nature (which can be expanded to the whole faction to some degree) and their inability to be protected from nasty stuff. (and holy moly does GW have some nasty stuff in their pipeline *gigity*)

On top of that, including a Wizard through allies is tougher for Khorne than for other factions due to anti-synergy. (which is fine but will not help with 2.0)

Maybe realm spells are not gonna be available in matched play, maybe our priests still have to carry a whole faction (mortal and mixed lists for the most part). Who knows, but it doesn't look like fun for us with the information currently available.

[kozokus]

3 hours ago, Xasz said:

On top of that, including a Wizard through allies is tougher for Khorne than for other factions due to anti-synergy. (which is fine but will not help with 2.0)

I do not see any anti synergy (except the inevitable frown you will earn from basically everyone, Khorne included). If you are refering to the Bloodsecrator, one can simply cast his spell battery then plant the banner after to ignore the reroll rule.

[kozokus]

3 hours ago, Xasz said:

+1 is carried only by hounds (with condition), which are not played except in maxed out Murderhost.

This is something that might change, considering the nex rules teased. Currently, hounds are quite underrated, they provide a very high number of average attacks and a correct speed.

 

3 hours ago, Xasz said:

 The Bloodsecrator portal is really annoying for weak wizards but can be ignored by stronger ones.

I do agree, LOC and Arkhan really don't care about it and it doesn't catch anybody without the Gorepilgrim, but it adds up with all the other things.

3 hours ago, Xasz said:

Blood Tithe is situational at best, due to the inherit problems.

Mmmh naaaah. Can't let you say that. Really.

I spend whole tournaments spending 2 tithe points each turns to block comets/balewinds/infernaleflames/agings/critical-Mshield/dance-macabre and the list goes on/

Well, to be honest it usually happens only on turn 2 and 3, because turn1 is too early and the brazen rune is here for a that and if the wizards are not dead by turn 4 it is because they are useless or because i died.

[TheAdequateWargamer]

2 hours ago, kozokus said:

 

6 hours ago, Xasz said:

 The Bloodsecrator portal is really annoying for weak wizards but can be ignored by stronger ones.

I do agree, LOC and Arkhan really don't care about it and it doesn't catch anybody without the Gorepilgrim, but it adds up with all the other things

I would add that playing LoN you may not ultimately stop the spell being cast, but getting your opp to reroll a natural 9+ for their locus double effect thing is pretty handy.

[Roark]

12 hours ago, Xasz said:

Only the WoK has +2 and is not played

He's pretty popular, man... Magic defence is one of the reasons he's popular.

[Roark]

9 hours ago, kozokus said:

one can simply cast his spell battery then plant the banner after to ignore the reroll rule.

I'm such a goose. I've been deploying Wizard allies outside the 18"... completely unnecessarily.

[kozokus]

27 minutes ago, Roark said:

I'm such a goose. I've been deploying Wizard allies outside the 18"... completely unnecessarily.

Shhhh, Don't tell anyone but i've been doing the same until someone gave me that "oh dear" look and i drown in a puddle of shame..

[Killax]

With more as five unit choices of anti-magic design I'd say Khorne very much is the anti-magic faction. With only the most powerful of Wizards actually going through with it all and most often not in the easiest way either. In general I don't think stating Khorne has become irrelevant since GH2017 is true either. We even saw Murderhost win and a couple of high standing results with Khorne. All that is really going on is that due to some minor errors and alterations I'd say Khorne's design is showing it's age allready, the largest part to blame there is not recieving a constant update like Stormcast for example have. But to me because of that it will always apply to non-Stormcast armies. They will eventually show their age. As they arn't the Space Marine equivelant of this game. I don't mind it, but I can't say I should or will expect something else. The only thing I again like to see is a few Keyword changes. These will not drastically impact our faction but will make it logical, which to me is most important for newer players.

Newer players are also why I believed a 2nd edition is right on time now, as there where too many errata to browse trough for even the Core rules to really get into this game. This largely goes unnoticed by players who are allready commited to it offcourse.

As for Wizards and the like, we can create anti-synergy but as some of you have allready noticed (and likely played   ) you don't have to create this. I feel Khorne can still very much compete and unless they drastically alter Unbinding for the worse, I doubt we will suffer from this newer and stronger Magic. Keep in mind that I expect Wizards especially to recieve a significant price increase. Reason being that 'ranged attack characters' obviously recieve the most advantage out of this new Hero protection rule from shooting. In addition only Wizards logically obtain acces to new spells for this edition and there is no reason why they shouldn't have acces to the new Artefacts aswell. 

Basically I don't really worry about Magic because so far I havn't had to. Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster, Bloodsecrator and Slaughterpriest do their job well. I've always liked the idea of Flesshounds but most of the time they wern't needed and I expect this to change for the better. In general there are only a couple of ways to 'destroy' the Khorne faction. These would be:
- To dratsically increase Bloodsecrator cost or ruling, this is where we see the after effect of GH2017 as I'd say the game would now actually be able to 'handle' Bloodsecrators stacking and to be honest most where allready able to handle it end of GH2016.
- To drastically alter Blood Tithe costs or ruling, we saw this occur in GH2017 also.
- To increase costs for Bloodletters and Skullreapers, we saw half of this occur in GH2017 and yeah the ripple of that was Skullreapers fell out of favour since this year basically.

But in general it's way too soon to really think about cost changes as the full picture is still not revealed and likely won't be up until the books are on the shelves. Thus so far I'm slowely continueing a Fleshhound unit plan  

[Xasz]

It seems we have some very different experiences with Khorne.

I consider Khorne to be the weakest Battletome-faction by quite the margin and as it stands, it's gonna get a lot worse with 2.0.

This might or might not change a little with a World Eaters release at the end of 2018 or early 2019, but currently mono-khorne is a beer and pretzels army at best.

I really like the models but there is nothing but frustration as I feel Khorne is not living up to the name, the fluff or the competitive meta in its current iteration.

[JonnyTheKing]

29 minutes ago, Xasz said:

It seems we have some very different experiences with Khorne.

I consider Khorne to be the weakest Battletome-faction by quite the margin and as it stands, it's gonna get a lot worse with 2.0.

This might or might not change a little with a World Eaters release at the end of 2018 or early 2019, but currently mono-khorne is a beer and pretzels army at best.

I really like the models but there is nothing but frustration as I feel Khorne is not living up to the name, the fluff or the competitive meta in its current iteration.

What lists do you run? I strongly disagree that we are the weakest battletome, we are an army capable of doing well against most match ups.

 

its a tough battle sometimes but I feel Khorne are one of the stronger factions currently although we do have some meh units 

[Roark]

Whoa... yeah, that's not my experience at all. Beer and pretzels? Wow. No. My whole gaming circle tailor their lists against me for our tournaments, and frequently they still get slaughtered.

And that's not because I'm a brilliant player. Not by a long shot. It's partly because large numbers of lethal characters and buffed troops are quite good at killing and holding objectives. Not to mention Turn 1 charging MW daemonbombs...

I play against Stormcast, Skryre, Death, Seraphon and Freeguild among others...

What kind of stuff are you facing Xasz?

[kozokus]

26 minutes ago, Xasz said:

I consider Khorne to be the weakest Battletome-faction by quite the margin and as it stands, it's gonna get a lot worse with 2.0. 

Preposterous! ?

Look at AoSshorts in 2018 and tell me how many Khorne lists you see in top8-10. Now tell me how many Sylvaneth and Flesheater lists you see or Beastclaw, of even Bonesplitters.  Not the tenth of the number of Khorne lists.

Khorne seems weak on paper but is not in reality. Perfect exemple of a double standard (when your feeling is coutradicted by the measure and observation)

[Killax]

For me Khorne only suffers from age, it isnt as bad as WFB but basically every faction wanted Fyreslayer and Seraphon treatments in Gh2017 and not all got them.

I consider Khorne a solid tier 2 and Gorepilgrims or Muderhost lists 1.5ish. It isn't a meta defining faction anymore since Gh2017s erratas. This is logical as any change to Allegiance abilities and for us a key model Bloodsecrator is massive. But weak, nope, quite some factions have less impact on the competative scene as Khorne does.

WoKBT, Bloodsecrator, Slaughterpiest, Bloodletters and Wrathmongers in combination with Murderhost and Gore Pilgrims do keep us afloat. This is better as any of GA Destruction, LoN carries GA Death completely and GA Chaos only has Tzeentch who's significantly better. GA Order is allround in a better place as most other GA and again only thanks to GH2017.

[Xasz]

TBH I wouldn't even consider anything before DoT being a Battletome-faction. They were still figuring out stuff beforehand. (Sylvaneth might be an exception, felt rather "finished")

I can agree with Killax for the most part, BoK comes down to the struggle of getting your book early in the power-spiral.

I wonder if and what there might come with a World Eaters release. New hounds seem to be in the works and splitting our Heralds into 2-3 different models isn't unreasonable considering Nurgle. Although these are daemons and wouldn't really fit a mortal release. A Khorgorath box, 40k Skullcrushers or maybe Khorngors on the other hand... 

[Killax]

26 minutes ago, Xasz said:

I wonder if and what there might come with a World Eaters release. New hounds seem to be in the works and splitting our Heralds into 2-3 different models isn't unreasonable considering Nurgle. Although these are daemons and wouldn't really fit a mortal release. A Khorgorath box, 40k Skullcrushers or maybe Khorngors on the other hand... 

Yeah IF it happens I think we can expect some nice Daemons too. Fleshhounds, Karanak and two new plastic Daemonic Heralds are almost a given. What is really cool is that Warhammer 40.000 actually put a lot more lore on paper on what Khorne Daemonic Heralds actually do. I hope they will flesh this lore out into models for sure. E.g. a daemonic forge Khorne Herald and a Kinslayer, who's basically stoking hordes of Bloodletters by killing some. A Khorgorath for 40K could also easily be daemonic. As discussed before it wouldn't even be out of place with a Daemon Keyword in Age of Sigmar.

For World Eaters themselves I am just hoping for new Berzerker models. 
I also expect this trio to appear in plastic with almost 100% certainty:
Brass Scorpion:

Blood Slaughterers:

And if my prayers are heard, finally, a plastic Dreadclaw: 

In terms of Age of Sigmar related content it would then 'just' be two new Khorne Daemonic Heralds, new Fleshhounds, new Karanak and likely a plastic Khorgorath. As you said they have the similar functionality cross faction, with Fleshhounds being something different but Khorgorath's and Beast of Nurgle/Fiend of Slaanesh is practically the same.

Here I wouldn't get my hopes too high though! As I feel that Slaanesh will be updated first and I in general think Khorne isn't in drastic need of a model update like certain other factions are :P 

 

[Dan.Ford]

On 5/29/2018 at 9:02 AM, Killax said:

For me Khorne only suffers from age, it isnt as bad as WFB but basically every faction wanted Fyreslayer and Seraphon treatments in Gh2017 and not all got them.

I consider Khorne a solid tier 2 and Gorepilgrims or Muderhost lists 1.5ish. It isn't a meta defining faction anymore since Gh2017s erratas. This is logical as any change to Allegiance abilities and for us a key model Bloodsecrator is massive. But weak, nope, quite some factions have less impact on the competative scene as Khorne does.

WoKBT, Bloodsecrator, Slaughterpiest, Bloodletters and Wrathmongers in combination with Murderhost and Gore Pilgrims do keep us afloat. This is better as any of GA Destruction, LoN carries GA Death completely and GA Chaos only has Tzeentch who's significantly better. GA Order is allround in a better place as most other GA and again only thanks to GH2017.

As above , I agreed with a lot of what you said.

Personally I believe that Blades of Khorne armies will drop a bit more. 'Just guessing'

New 30" dispel range:
From the BoK book we already had table top dispels and if you were running flesh hound we were more than likely running Murderhost. If so the flesh hounds are in the middle of the table dispelling turn one.

We can summon Khorne Daemons unit on the 8th Blood tithe table (Archaon, 30 Bloodletters, Bloodthirster etc ) but a lot of things happen in a game , it not certain that we get to 8th    and it will be late in the game , also we still need to make that 9" charge that turn.
Other players can choose not to attack the last few Bloodletters leaving the units alive denying the blood tithe points.

Khorne do not have Wizards apart from Archaon. So we have to ally in a Wizard that we would not normally have in our lists to get spells and unending spell which cost points. So we may spend 80 to 200 points. That is a lot to cut from our lists of Gorepilgrims,  murderhost etc etc.

Going GA Chaos will mean we can summon Khorne units , if GW do not change the warscrolls to all the Khorne units and some forgeworld stuff which allow summoning units from spell casting.

Which is a super positive.

But so can other chaos alliances in the game, AND they will be generate points to summon. I think you could have a Nurgle lists generating point to summon more nurgle units and casting spell to summon chaos units that still have the ability to be summoned via a spell etc

I am guessing that they may be increasing the points to some of our units (Bloodletters )and Battalions ( points have always need tight with Khorne lists ) BUT others may come down  which will open endless days/weeks of list writing  

I am looking forward to the new era of gaming.  

I think juggernaut mortal and daemons will be a big part of it

[Killax]

1 hour ago, Dan.Ford said:

As above , I agreed with a lot of what you said.
Personally I believe that Blades of Khorne armies will drop a bit more. 'Just guessing'

New 30" dispel range:
From the BoK book we already had table top dispels and if you were running flesh hound we were more than likely running Murderhost. If so the flesh hounds are in the middle of the table dispelling turn one.

We can summon Khorne Daemons unit on the 8th Blood tithe table (Archaon, 30 Bloodletters, Bloodthirster etc ) but a lot of things happen in a game , it not certain that we get to 8th    and it will be late in the game , also we still need to make that 9" charge that turn. Other players can choose not to attack the last few Bloodletters leaving the units alive denying the blood tithe points.

Khorne do not have Wizards apart from Archaon. So we have to ally in a Wizard that we would not normally have in our lists to get spells and unending spell which cost points. So we may spend 80 to 200 points. That is a lot to cut from our lists of Gorepilgrims,  murderhost etc etc.

Going GA Chaos will mean we can summon Khorne units , if GW do not change the warscrolls to all the Khorne units and some forgeworld stuff which allow summoning units from spell casting. Which is a super positive. But so can other chaos alliances in the game, AND they will be generate points to summon. I think you could have a Nurgle lists generating point to summon more nurgle units and casting spell to summon chaos units that still have the ability to be summoned via a spell etc

I am guessing that they may be increasing the points to some of our units (Bloodletters )and Battalions ( points have always need tight with Khorne lists ) BUT others may come down  which will open endless days/weeks of list writing  I am looking forward to the new era of gaming.  I think juggernaut mortal and daemons will be a big part of it

I don't really know what you mean by dropping but if you mend dropping in certain costs and/or populairity I'd certainly agree. The simple reason for this is Games Workshop's own promotion. Stormcast will be and are mend to be the most popular faction. The simple reason for this remains their own way of producing and selling Age of Sigmar. I don't mind it though! 

What I also believe is that dispelling will indeed remain good for us. I don't know if the Blood Tithe point table is going to change, but if it isn't I do think it's time to indeed get Archaon or the max ammount of Bloodletters we can summon.

Technically we can obtain all kinds of Wizards. More importantly I think that some might miss that we have a lot of allies to work with. While in old Khorne this wasn't too flavourful (WFB) Khorne still isn't described as some kind of Witch Hunter/Inquisitor/Wizard hater... We will see how much we actually require of it in the end  

In general I think that summonning in Khorne will indeed not be our strongest sudden aspect, but we have it, when it happens it will be big. I personally think that the only issue that can arrise here (again) is with Tzeentch's Horrors. As they can allready use this horror swarm tarpit to their advantage well which seems to be set up to work out incredibly well soon. Costs can offcourse prevent this from becomming a massive issue.

Lastly I'm looking forward to it all. Will post a bit less untill it's all known.