Thoughts on 4.0's New Rules

[Satyrical Sophist]

13 hours ago, TechnoVampire said:

Additionally I do find a coherency number of 6 very strange when a lot of infantry units come in 10’s. Having to use a minimum size infantry unit on 25mm bases in 2 ranks feels particularly unintuitive and also overly harsh considering the new coherency range is 1/2”. I think they could have safely made the maximum number of models in one rank 10. 

6 is to let you deploy either a pair of threes or a 5 in a single line. I do get your point about it perhaps being a bit awkward to have to double line 10 25mm bases, but equally if you allow other stuff that coherency rule. It’s not too much of a problem letting a unit of steel helms stretch out like that, they could make a line of about 14 inches. By the same rule, 10 liberators cover 20 inches and 10 dire wolves cover 28 inches.  

[TechnoVampire]

2 hours ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

6 is to let you deploy either a pair of threes or a 5 in a single line. I do get your point about it perhaps being a bit awkward to have to double line 10 25mm bases, but equally if you allow other stuff that coherency rule. It’s not too much of a problem letting a unit of steel helms stretch out like that, they could make a line of about 14 inches. By the same rule, 10 liberators cover 20 inches and 10 dire wolves cover 28 inches.  

I get your point about certain units being able to be used to cover a lot of area in 10’s. I have thought about it, hence the reason that I don’t think that a blanket rule for coherency works particularly well. Having to use 10 x 25mm infantry in 2 ranks isn’t the end of the world, but it feels at odds with what they’re designed for, and makes them less valuable. It’s something I was hoping they would have cleaned up in the next edition, but ultimately not a massive deal. 

Edited April 19 by TechnoVampire

[Big Kim Woof-Woof]

23 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I don't know about you guys, but I am super excited to play 4th edition. Can't wait to see the warscrolls for my factions. What they have been doing for Stormcast is so good!

Very excited! I played a game last night (which I comprehensively lost, in case you were wondering) and there were quite a few times I found myself thinking about how much smoother this'll be when the new edition rolls into town. 

[Ferban]

Magic rules are up.  Casting and unbinding are basically the same as 3.0.  Prayers work a little differently.  Instead of single chant roll, the model can do one per turn and accumulate chant points.  Some prayers have bonus powers if chanted with a greater number of points.  It's an interesting idea.  And I like that a priest will have something to do in that first turn.  Most of their prayers might be out of range, but at least they can still warm up the chanting engines.  

One disappointment, though.  I was hoping we'd learn how spells function as a "module."  I had assumed (perhaps wrongly) that there would be a basic spellcasting system for the core rules and then a "module" that would make changes to it.  Almost like the way Andtor changes spellcasting by adding primal dice and whatnot.  But the article didn't make any such distinction.  So either this is the "module" and the core rules have no magic system.  Or this is the core system and the "module" we'll be using for matched play and PtG is something else entirely.  In which case, I'd want to know about that.  

I liked what I saw today, but I'm disappointed that the most pertinent question (to me) wasn't answered.  

[Sception]

I'm pretty sure there are not 'basic' magic rules, just core rules with no magic, then add the magic module to have any.  That was the impression I got from the 'modules' article, though.

"So why would I use wizards if I'm not using the magic module" - you wouldn't.

"but what about spearhead?" - units will have separate warscrolls for spearhead, presumably wizards in spearhead boxes will get abilities on their spearhead warscrolls emulating their magical abilities - eg extra ranged attacks or the like - without involving rules for spells & such.

.......................

Overall I like the look of this, particularly the return of proper spell lores in place of the generic arcane bolt & mystic shield.  Especially with my plan to run the Liche's Hand RoR in a Soulblight Gravelords army in order to emulate the old Legion of Sacrament, this should solve the current problem with the Liche's Hand where you're paying for Arkhan, a triple caster, without any spell lore access.

.....

Re priests, the main thing I'm not clear on is ritual points on a level 2+ priest.  Are ritual points built up separately for each prayer, or cumulatively on the priest?  For example, could a level 2 priest chant "unimportant prayer", roll 4 ritual points, then chant "important prayer", roll 5 more ritual points, and then use all 9 ritual points to activate the higher level effect of "important prayer" all in the same Hero phase?

[Tonhel]

My main concern from this preview is the survivability of foot characters. The Slaughterpriest his melee damage output is barely better than the Weirdnob Shaman + the Weirdnob Shaman has a good ranged attack.

Both stil die easly from a gentle push from a Kroxigor.

[Vasshpit]

@Tonhel

Maybe some as of yet unseen core rule(s)...

Edited April 19 by Vasshpit

[Beliman]

I need to see more warscrolls, but it seems that Wizard (1) let you cast or unbind 1 spell.

That seems a nice mini-game with some important decisions to make.

Btw, I'm not sure that I understand how prayers work.

So, I try to chant a 4 ritual points prayer, I roll 1D6 and get a 4. My army then has 4 ritual points. Then what? The prayer is answered (needs 4 ritual points) or can I store all this ritual points to go for a 8+ chant effect? Being accumulative, can I use other priests to make a bigger pool of ritual points?

Edited April 19 by Beliman

[Tonhel]

57 minutes ago, Vasshpit said:

@Tonhel

Maybe some as of yet unseen core rule(s)...

Maybe, but my biggest frustration was how characters on foot were done in AoS 3th. My Chaos lord was famous for hiding and avoiding combat.

When looking at the Shaman and Slaughterpriest. The Slaughterpriest doesn't seem a living beacon of the lord of battle's power. 😞

He will get his but kicked by the Weirdnob Shaman. 

It is 4/3+/3+/1/2 versus 3/4+/3+/1/D3. The difference between damage output is minimal. The Shaman can seriously weaken or kill him in the shooting phase..

And both will probably be butchered by a single Kroxigor.

If all foot characters from all factions have again more or less the same profile. Puf.

One thing I really like about TOW is that your characters are a real force to be reckoned with. A WoC Chaos lord is a combat monster, In AoS 3 he is a baby. 😞. Looking at the Slaughterpriest profile it doesn't look very good for foot heroes.

Imo, heroes need to matter and not only the heroes on a big monster. With the info we have, that you can't force your opponent to divides it attacks by pinning, A slaughterpriest that wants to enter melee combat is immediately death.

Lol, there goes looking at the mini's and background to make warscrolls. 😞 

Edited April 19 by Tonhel

[Marcvs]

18 minutes ago, Beliman said:

I need to see more warscrolls, but it seems that Wizard (1) let you cast or unbind 1 spell.

In every turn yes. So you still get to cast a spell in your turn and unbind one spell in the opponent's turn.

That's how it works now with dispelling endless spells (you give away a cast/unbind to do it). Where things get different is that in 4th you can cast in the enemy turn.

[Vasshpit]

59 minutes ago, Tonhel said:

He will get his but kicked by the Weirdnob Shaman. 

Well it is an orruk. 😜

[Tonhel]

Just now, Vasshpit said:

Well it is an orruk. 😜

Orruk or not, if nothing is changed for foot heroes compared to AoS 3 than it doesn't look good for foot heroes that want to join the melee combat.

[Vasshpit]

Maybe it'll be something like if within (x) inches of a unit from their battalion they get a 5+ save or something. 

🤞

[MotherGoose]

54 minutes ago, Tonhel said:

Orruk or not, if nothing is changed for foot heroes compared to AoS 3 than it doesn't look good for foot heroes that want to join the melee combat.

Especially now his 16" d6 mortal prayer has become an ability and can only be used in combat, he sort of wants to go into combat but will die to a stiff breeze

[Flippy]

1 hour ago, Tonhel said:

Orruk or not, if nothing is changed for foot heroes compared to AoS 3 than it doesn't look good for foot heroes that want to join the melee combat.

We still don’t know if they are able to join units. 

[The_Tallest_Ork]

Slaughterpriests and Weirdnobs aren't able to stand up to Kroxigor twice their size under the current rules, I don't see why it's a big issue if they can't in 4th edition.

[Beliman]

15 hours ago, Sception said:

Are ritual points built up separately for each prayer, or cumulatively on the priest?  For example, could a level 2 priest chant "unimportant prayer", roll 4 ritual points, then chant "important prayer", roll 5 more ritual points, and then use all 9 ritual points to activate the higher level effect of "important prayer" all in the same Hero phase?

From how it is written, the Priest is the one that gains the ritual points. So, I think that you are right about how this works. Priest (2) seems to be the soft spot for chanting shenanigans.

[Big Kim Woof-Woof]

I like that they've made Priests and Prayers quite different now, and they're not simply wizards-who-aren't-really-wizards anymore. 

[Big Kim Woof-Woof]

6 hours ago, The_Tallest_Ork said:

Slaughterpriests and Weirdnobs aren't able to stand up to Kroxigor twice their size under the current rules, I don't see why it's a big issue if they can't in 4th edition.

I think there's a general feeling that something like a Slaughterpriest should have a chance of sticking it to a Kroxigor. 

[Lucentia]

I guess I don't agree with that, even as a khornate warrior-priest, it's a shirtless buff guy trying to fight a dinosaur, that doesn't seem like a battle he should be winning under most circumstances.  If various wizards and priests get good melee profiles, it means actual combat heroes will either look lackluster in comparison or have to have heavily inflated melee profiles themselves to compensate.  (Which, granted, maybe that would be fine, we haven't seen any frontline hero scrolls yet.)

But I'm fine with priests and support heroes being fairly pillowfisted, they've got better things to be doing.  The slaughterpriest still hits considerably harder than the average human, which seems about right to me.

[Tonhel]

29 minutes ago, Big Kim Woof-Woof said:

I think there's a general feeling that something like a Slaughterpriest should have a chance of sticking it to a Kroxigor. 

Exactly, they are chosen of Khorne, the god of war, hate, rage, martial prowness and etc... + and the mini's are huge. And most importantly they are heroes.

7 hours ago, The_Tallest_Ork said:

Slaughterpriests and Weirdnobs aren't able to stand up to Kroxigor twice their size under the current rules, I don't see why it's a big issue if they can't in 4th edition.

Have you seen the Slaughterpriest mini? The Kroxigor isn't twice the size at all. In AoS 3rd almost no foot hero could have a chance to a Kroxigor. Not even a Soulblight Vampire or Chaos Lords. The most combat orientated heroes by fluff. I hoped that this would change with 4. A bit more attention, combat prowness and survivability for foot heroes. 

Foot heroes mean nothing in AoS. They aren't heroes. They are babies that have to avoide combat. If they enter melee, they are dead and they are "currently" with the rules we know sofar even easier to kill, as you can't force the pinned enemy unit anymore to divide its attacks. So you can't minimize the attacks back to your hero anymore.

14 minutes ago, Lucentia said:

I guess I don't agree with that, even as a khornate warrior-priest, it's a shirtless buff guy trying to fight a dinosaur, that doesn't seem like a battle he should be winning under most circumstances.  If various wizards and priests get good melee profiles, it means actual combat heroes will either look lackluster in comparison or have to have heavily inflated melee profiles themselves to compensate.  (Which, granted, maybe that would be fine, we haven't seen any frontline hero scrolls yet.)

But I'm fine with priests and support heroes being fairly pillowfisted, they've got better things to be doing.  The slaughterpriest still hits considerably harder than the average human, which seems about right to me.

We will see when we know the rules for human heroes, but in AoS 3rd, all foot heroes have more or less the same stats. Again, the Khorne priest is a chosen one of the God of war. It are heroes, legendary figures that rised to such a status. Foot heroes are weaklings that have to avoide combat and from what we seen now, melee is even more lethal. The Slaughterpriest can't survive one round of combat, and to use his abilities the best he has to be almost in combat. It's a bit ridiculous.

I can't be the only one that finds foot heroes really underwhelming in AoS? Chaos lords, Vampires... weakling is combat.

Edited April 20 by Tonhel

[Lucentia]

Right, but you can kinda say that for everything, 'Oh, a slaughter queen is a chosen martial leader of the arisen blood goddess, she should be able to solo a slaughterpriest no problem,'   'An Abhorrent Archregent is a bloodthirsty monster swollen with unholy power, he should be able to kill 20 clanrats per combat!'  Marrying the rules to fit the lore as much as possible is all well and good, but at some point you're just playing playground rules with whatever your pet factions happen to be.

Do I think melee foot heroes have historically been a weak spot in AoS?  Yes, certainly, I think that's a fair assessment.  Do I think the solution to that is to make every random priest or wizard with 'Blood' in its name into Conan the Barbarian?  Probably not.  Let's see what vampire lords actually look like before jumping to conclusions.

[Beliman]

There is a lot going on with the chants/prayers, without being boring.

Most of the time, you want to have at least 1 powerlevel ready with the most advanced wizzard because you don't want to see an sneaky Magical Intervention at the end of the turn (Unbind is a reaction).

I'm not sure that I understand abilities with this wording:

Quote

That unit can use a [INSER KEYWORD] ability...

Does your unit gain the same keywords as the main original ability? If that's the case, it will not be legal to Counter-Charge after Redeploy. If not, the Counter-Charge Ability will be a gamechanger in the hands of skilled players.

[Big Kim Woof-Woof]

15 minutes ago, Beliman said:

There is a lot going on with the chants/prayers, without being boring.

Agreed. I want a Priest for my faction now, please! 

[Tonhel]

1 hour ago, Lucentia said:

Right, but you can kinda say that for everything, 'Oh, a slaughter queen is a chosen martial leader of the arisen blood goddess, she should be able to solo a slaughterpriest no problem,'   'An Abhorrent Archregent is a bloodthirsty monster swollen with unholy power, he should be able to kill 20 clanrats per combat!'  Marrying the rules to fit the lore as much as possible is all well and good, but at some point you're just playing playground rules with whatever your pet factions happen to be.

Do I think melee foot heroes have historically been a weak spot in AoS?  Yes, certainly, I think that's a fair assessment.  Do I think the solution to that is to make every random priest or wizard with 'Blood' in its name into Conan the Barbarian?  Probably not.  Let's see what vampire lords actually look like before jumping to conclusions.

It probably sounds that I want unkillable foot heroes, but that's not the case. Although an Archregent should be able to kill a decent amount of clanrats per combat. 😄.

Survivability of combat orieanted foot heroes was bad during 3rd. The damage output was also bad (i.e Chaos Lord).

With the Weirdnob and Slaughterpriest it already looks like everything will have more or less have the same stat line.

The weapon range is now a fixed 3", you aren't forced anymore to divide your attacks when fighting two units. So if there is no other rule to give some protecion for foot heroes. They are dead the moment they enter combat. This is a certainty with the rules we currently know.

Edited April 20 by Tonhel