AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion

[The Lost Sigmarite]

Thinking about how those of us who will buy the army set are going to expand their new Freeguild army beyond to 1000 pts territory. 

So I created two 1000 pts lists that build upon the Cities army box. My rule of thumb was to use 100% of that set, so no mini was left behind and you get every bang of your buck mini wise on the table. First list goes like this :

• Freeguild Cavalier-Marshal (120)
• Freeguild Marshal and Relic Envoy (90)
• Alchemite Warforger (90)

• x10 Freeguild Steelhelms (100)
• x10 Freeguild Steelhelms (100)
• x5 Freeguild Cavaliers (180)
• x20 Freeguild Fusiliers (300)

Total : 980 pts.

Using the gorgeous Cavalier-Marshal model to buff the Cavaliers with the combo I talked above on this thread, this list is built around the core provided by the army set. 20 Fusiliers add some punching power, and are a unit you will want expanding into 2000 pts territory, so better start early to max those Fusilier numbers. Second list goes like this :

• Pontifex Zenestra (150)
• Freeguild Marshal and Relic Envoy (90)
• Alchemite Warforger (90)
   
• x10 Freeguild Steelhelms (100)
• x10 Freeguild Steelhelms (100)
• x5 Freeguild Cavaliers (180)
• x10 Freeguild Fusiliers (150)
• Wildercorps Hunters (140)

Total : 1000 pts.

This list uses another great warscroll, Zenestra, to work alongside the Warforger to give your Steelhelms 3+ save/5+ ward to make them extra sticky. The Wildercorps create some nice shooting/movement in an otherwise slow army, and also enable you do play Warcry with them too, so you get double the amount of fun from one kit. 

What do you think about those ?

[Lord Krungharr]

That seems really solid...and looking at that list holy cow these guys are CHEAP POINTS!  

I think I'm gonna build my own Warforger as I really don't want this box because I'm full of Steam Tanks.  And those come with those little buckets of coal bits, perfect for someone to become a Warforger.

Today I heard about Stormcast Vigilors and the Lord Ordinator.  I think I want both as either seems excellent for a Steam Tank army, enabling them to branch out and stay more accurate, instead of depending on being next to the Hurricanum.

[Austin]

How do people feel about allies? I’d like to include either Annihilators or Fulminators as a sort of back line defender for the gun line, with some bite. 

[Thugmullet]

5 hours ago, Austin said:

How do people feel about allies? I’d like to include either Annihilators or Fulminators as a sort of back line defender for the gun line, with some bite. 

Without there ability to drop in and do mortals and not be on the board to get shot I think Annihilators would be over costed for that use. I think Fulminators would not offer the wounds for staying power for what you want to do and really there best used on the offence.

I think quester soulstorm would be a good unit for this. About the same cost or cheaper but with 18 wounds on a 3+, good strike potential whether they charge or get charged and you get a warscroll teleport, which is an extra tool not found in cities which gives you the ability to quickly orient them from defensive to offensive latter in the game. They can hang around the back, cover back board and then later when not needed for that they can transition to anywhere else on the board and they will count as 18 on an objective (wholly outside you zone),  and still have some good punch. You also get the bonus of the apponant having to worry about and cover for this unit until you use that teleport. Really suitable unit for this purpose I think.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Thugmullet

[Beliman]

On 8/6/2023 at 9:51 AM, The Lost Sigmarite said:

Found this nice little combo, it could be great at 1000 pts scale. For it, you need 5 Cavaliers and a Cavalier-Marshal.

Take a Cavalier-Marshal, give him the Sigmarite Warhammer artefact and the priest trait. He now does a maximum of 12 damage at rend -3. Now make him give Engage the Foe + Hammer of Sigmar to the Cavaliers, they all get an extra attack at +1 to wound. The 5 man Cavalier squad goes to 21 attacks (without hooves) with +1 damage -1 rend, for a potential of 42 wounds dealt. And that's without the Marshall swinging in melee. Not bad !

The show must go on!

In the same turn that you are going to order Engage the Foe, use your Their Finest Our Heroic Action with your Cavalier-Marshal. Now, your Cavalier-Marshal and  Cavaliers have an 3" extra charge and Attack First.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

Some quick hot takes while I am developing my list:

So I am going to run a list that includes steam tanks and wants them to do work, but not going 100% tanks. Probably one commander and two regular.

So far, subfaction choice is not obvious at all. You would think Greywater is the obvious go-to, but it actuakly does not work on the tanks themselves. Still, it is in contention for other Castellite stuff I am definiteky going to run. However it basically requires the combo with the Master of Ballistics command trait, which in turn would mean running a non-tank general (because I don't want my tank commander babysitting a gunline in the back field). That, in turn, means no tank battleline.

There are actually a lot of potential subfaction choices. Tanks want to both shoot and charge, so Hammerhal Aqsha to give them two orders seems cool. Hallowheart for good casting is always viable if you include a few wizards (which you will because Alchemite is undercosted). I could see Lethis if you have a lot of non-wizard heroes, cursing people with the Tank Commander and then dumping 3d6 steam gun shots into them seems decent. Misthavn to help with the approach seems good, too, however movement buffs are easy to get in Cities. Same for Living City.

Concerning artefacts and command traits: The command traits seem OK, but I am definitely eyeing the good ol' arcane tome again for artefacts. I think Cities can generally go for the one drop instead of extra enhancements.

Speaking of one drop: I don't think the castellite battalion is good, because the Fusil-Major is a tax and the cannon is worse point-for-point than just taking 10 more Fusiliers. So I predict tournament players will just spam those in Battle Regiment. Works for me, though, I will just run the cool thematic stuff and not have people hate me

Stand out units for me are the cavaliers+hero (great power pair), fusiliers+alchemite (actually anything+alchemite) and pontifex. Pontifex and alchemite seem like auto-includes. They just do too much for too cheap.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Neil Arthur Hotep

[Lightbox]

54 minutes ago, Beliman said:

The show must go on!

In the same turn that you are going to order Engage the Foe, use your Their Finest Our Heroic Action with your Cavalier-Marshal. Now, your Cavalier-Marshal and  Cavaliers have an 3" extra charge and Attack First.

You and @The Lost Sigmarite have sold me on the cavalier marshal. Guess I'm going horse heavy YEEHAW!

I think a mobile list of Cavalier's supported by dark riders and then some foot troops to guard your rear objectives could be a fun list option. Might be something I look at running on occasion.

[JackStreicher]

19 hours ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

Thinking about how those of us who will buy the army set are going to expand their new Freeguild army beyond to 1000 pts territory. 

So I created two 1000 pts lists that build upon the Cities army box. My rule of thumb was to use 100% of that set, so no mini was left behind and you get every bang of your buck mini wise on the table. First list goes like this :

• Freeguild Cavalier-Marshal (120)
• Freeguild Marshal and Relic Envoy (90)
• Alchemite Warforger (90)

• x10 Freeguild Steelhelms (100)
• x10 Freeguild Steelhelms (100)
• x5 Freeguild Cavaliers (180)
• x20 Freeguild Fusiliers (300)

Total : 980 pts.

Using the gorgeous Cavalier-Marshal model to buff the Cavaliers with the combo I talked above on this thread, this list is built around the core provided by the army set. 20 Fusiliers add some punching power, and are a unit you will want expanding into 2000 pts territory, so better start early to max those Fusilier numbers. Second list goes like this :

• Pontifex Zenestra (150)
• Freeguild Marshal and Relic Envoy (90)
• Alchemite Warforger (90)
   
• x10 Freeguild Steelhelms (100)
• x10 Freeguild Steelhelms (100)
• x5 Freeguild Cavaliers (180)
• x10 Freeguild Fusiliers (150)
• Wildercorps Hunters (140)

Total : 1000 pts.

This list uses another great warscroll, Zenestra, to work alongside the Warforger to give your Steelhelms 3+ save/5+ ward to make them extra sticky. The Wildercorps create some nice shooting/movement in an otherwise slow army, and also enable you do play Warcry with them too, so you get double the amount of fun from one kit. 

What do you think about those ?

I love how one can actually play an army (not just a small warband) with cities. Some points may go up, yet at its core I hope it won’t change.

My only concern is that the shooting will most likely escalate too much leading to unfun interactions like Sentinel spam caused.

Without points I am intending on olaying a list like this (non competetive):

 

Misthavn

Marshal (100)

Marshal retinue (180)

Marshal on horse (120)

Battle Mage (100)

2x 10 Fusiliers (300? Pts)

1x Cannon (for the style) (150 pts)

1x 10 Dreadspears (90 pts)

1x 5 Dark Riders (120?)

2x 10 Steelhelms (200 pts)

2x 5 Cavaliers (or 1 tenner) (360 pts)

2 Drakespawn Chariots (180)

1x 5 Drakespawn Knights (140?)

 

Something along those lines just for the style. The Dark Elf part is interchangeable for 20 BL + Sorceress

 

Anyways, I‘ll be starting a Path to Glory Campaign this evening using the following List:

Misthavn

Marshal General - +1 to wound with all out attack, 4+ anti-flee brazier

Sorceress - No armour spell

20 Black Guard

10 Fusiliers

5 Cavaliers

 

The humans are proxied (Marshal = Glaurio, Fusiliers = Converted Handgunners, Cavaliers = Some sort of riders)

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by JackStreicher

[Lord Krungharr]

6 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Some quick hot takes while I am developing my list:

So I am going to run a list that includes steam tanks and wants them to do work, but not going 100% tanks. Probably one commander and two regular.

So far, subfaction choice is not obvious at all. You would think Greywater is the obvious go-to, but it actuakly does not work on the tanks themselves. Still, it is in contention for other Castellite stuff I am definiteky going to run. However it basically requires the combo with the Master of Ballistics command trait, which in turn would mean running a non-tank general (because I don't want my tank commander babysitting a gunline in the back field). That, in turn, means no tank battleline.

There are actually a lot of potential subfaction choices. Tanks want to both shoot and charge, so Hammerhal Aqsha to give them two orders seems cool. Hallowheart for good casting is always viable if you include a few wizards (which you will because Alchemite is undercosted). I could see Lethis if you have a lot of non-wizard heroes, cursing people with the Tank Commander and then dumping 3d6 steam gun shots into them seems decent. Misthavn to help with the approach seems good, too, however movement buffs are easy to get in Cities. Same for Living City.

Concerning artefacts and command traits: The command traits seem OK, but I am definitely eyeing the good ol' arcane tome again for artefacts. I think Cities can generally go for the one drop instead of extra enhancements.

 

I really like that the tanks have 8" moves now, and while they can get the Advance in Formation Order, I still think Misthavn is a solid choice for the Stank army.  Hammerhal Aqsha is decent for that 2nd Order but not quite sure if it's better than extra movement every of their hero phases.  Guess it depends if you have extra Cities heroes or not.  For artefacts I would definitely go for Mastro Vivetti's Magnificent Macroscope.  That's a big bubble of extra range that's always turned on, as opposed to a spell/unbind. 

I like the Living City too though...3 outflanking Luminarks, Commander w 3 tanks on the field, and can probably fit in a foot hero or two besides those.  Which while I like the Warforger, wondering if an allied Lord Ordinator might be better in that case.

[The Lost Sigmarite]

14 hours ago, Austin said:

How do people feel about allies? I’d like to include either Annihilators or Fulminators as a sort of back line defender for the gun line, with some bite. 

My take is : don't use either, and take Stormdrakes instead. Why I think that is because a Cities army is going to be very numerous mini wise, which can clog the board and prevent your Fulminators from maneuvering well. This is a problem Stormdrakes don't have because they fly. And also, they hit almost as hard as Fulmis. 
But I do like @Thugmullet's thoughts on Questor Soulsworns, worth exploring imo. 

In 2000 pts territory, I will try to use Gotrek. Yeah he's slow, but so is the Freeguild infantry, so it's less of a problem. In a shooting list that makes the enemy want to come to you, I can see Gotrek work. Like "come at me bro, try to compromise my gunline with Gotrek around". 

7 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Speaking of one drop: I don't think the castellite battalion is good, because the Fusil-Major is a tax and the cannon is worse point-for-point than just taking 10 more Fusiliers. So I predict tournament players will just spam those in Battle Regiment. Works for me, though, I will just run the cool thematic stuff and not have people hate me

Gotta politely disagree on the Fusil-Major, I found some application to him. If you pop a crack shot, you can remove standard bearers from enemy units. Which can help you achieve Banners Held High. With 2 Fusil-Majors shooting at the same unit, that's statistically ~1 crack shot/turn, so it's doable. This next one is a bit less feasable, but still in the realm of possibility. If those 2 Fusil-Majors manage to pop 2 crack shots on the same unit and you choose which models you remove, you can ****** up unit coherency - and cripple an important unit.

7 hours ago, Lightbox said:

You and @The Lost Sigmarite have sold me on the cavalier marshal. Guess I'm going horse heavy YEEHAW!

I think a mobile list of Cavalier's supported by dark riders and then some foot troops to guard your rear objectives could be a fun list option. Might be something I look at running on occasion.

Glad you like it, but I have reservations about Cavalier heavy lists beyond 1000 pts. The problem I see is, you will want to reinforce the Cavaliers in 2000 pts, but doing so you lose on the champion's fancy attacks, and you create a unit with a massive footprint on the board - not really maneuvrable, can be screwed over by terrain and can create pile-in problems. I'd love to be proven wrong though because Cities cavalry list sounds awesome. A bit like how StD can go heavy on cavalry with 10 men Chaos Knights squads.

Edited August 8, 2023 by The Lost Sigmarite

[Doko]

after give hours studying the book and doing many mathhammer of every unit and combos i have this list as my core  of the best units and combos.

 

faction: settler gain 

heroes:

general: alchemite warforger 90

        -warlod trait:master of ballistics

        -spell:transmutation of lead

sorcerer 90

    -spell:hoarfrost

sorcerer 90

    -tenebrael blade

runelord 100

     -the reroll prayers augment

     -prayer: rune of oath and steel

black ark fleetmaster 90

 

battleline:

steelhelms 100 

freeguild fusiliers x3 450

bleak swords 90

 

elites:

hammerers x20 300

black guard 140

black ark corsairs x20 180

 

points: 1720

 

this list have 280 points free to bring some dwarf to have 3 units for the tactic,or more pirates or cavalry etc

my intent very posible gonna be bring one unit of longbeards and change runelord for dwarfking to have 3 sturdy dwarfs units to complete the dwarf battle tactic.

then bring one artillery or other msu unit of fussiliers to do the order of supresive fire(enemy atack last)

the combos:

1-the sorcerers with +3 cast doing the ignore saves on pirates or the hoarfrost because one of these gonna be canceled by rival with the primal dice.

then the pirates with the buff of the hero pirate and sorcerer can do around 25 mortals wounds to high save enemy units.

black guard is the screen of pirates and sorcerer and give ward4 to sorcerers while bleak swords are here only for battleline tax and sacrifice to sorcerers

2-hammerers can delete any regular save unit getting a -1 to be wounded and ward5 if needed play as tank

3-the stellhems are needed to do battleline to fusiliers and the double reinforced fusiliers with the +1hit and wound warlord trait and doing mortals with 6 are brutal doing 26 rend 1 damage + 10 mortals wounds at 24" 

 

how is played:

-one castle with the 30 fussiliers+artillery+warforge mage getting one of our back objetives while killing deathstar of enemy

-the steelhelms as screen of the castle

-the combo of elfs to kill high save enemy units

-the hammerers killing chaf and regular save units

-the dwarfs have attack first(enemy attack last) with the supresive fire of artillery while the elfs have attack first with his elf order and have room to play with the countercharge order due to have 3 heroes.

-have 3 sturdy dwarfs units to score the tactic,then many elfs unit to score the elf tactic and can score the human tactic in later turn when enemy units be weakened 

 

pretty sure with time i can come with some better,but so far seems the best list to score and in mathammer. 

i gonna do others list with steamtank that is great,human cavalry is good also and the elf cavalry+dragon+carriots are good also.

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by Doko

[Doko]

only for fun and is 100% personal opinion(after study the mathammer numbers) here is my tier list and tougth about the units.

i would like know opinion of others cities buddys

edit to clarify: 

0=useless,warscroll need be remake or havent any use

1/2=bad unit with bad scroll or heavy overcosted

3/4= ok scroll but overcosted

5/6= balanced

7/8= good scroll and good points

9/10= great scroll and a bit undercosted

 

dwarfs:

  -dwarfking 2/10 needed to use the dwarf order but have 0 utility and is only a combatstick,it isnt a 0 because is sturdy with the ward4 of hammerers and can be used to do the dwarf tactic of dwarf in combat and not die

-enginer 0/10 nothing here,only can give comanda to copters that are horribles

-runelord 3/10 nerfed into the oblivion losing the +2 dispell,losing the ward prayer and got nerfed his rend prayer from 2+ to 4+ and not work with ranged. dont worth it spend 100 points for a 50% chance of give 1 rend

-gyrocopter 0/10 have got deleted his flamer profile and replaced by a 0 damage attack,this unit cost 90 points and do 2'5 rend 1 damage,his cost for that damage and 5 wounds would be around 40 points,is useless and i never saw in entire aos a worst scroll that this

-gyrobomber 5/10 isnt bad,but overcosted,4,4 rend1 damage and situational d3mortal  must cost 90 points and not 120

-irondrakes 0/10 continue having the stupid rule that do half damage if moved or in melle BUT now also was nerfed and also cant be setup,so bye bye to bridge or living city doing them useless,also lost every buff posible,lost the +1 wound of longbeards and the +1 rend of runelord, a unit with 4,4 rend 1 at 19"(treathrange) or 8'8 at 15" when similar units as blisbarbs or reaver do 8'8 rend1 without penaltys allways for same cost and at 30"+ treathrange, its beyond me who is the genious that balanced this unit,must cost 100 points for these stats or get deleted the rule that cant move and changed his attacks to base 2

-ironbreakers 3/10 overcosted,10 wounds save 3 and 6'6 no rend damage for 130 when per example saurus warriors for 180 have 20 wounds save 3 with 8'8 rend1 damage and 2 mortals or chaos warriors also 20 wounds save3 and 12 rend1 damage. yes can have ward4 but that is the passive of the army and need the tax of one dwarf hero,is as if we compare to every slave with +1 attack of khorne mark or slanesh entire army with ward5. this scroll must cost 100 and not 130

-longbeards with shield 5/10 with two hands 7/10 they are the ironbreakers but  with rend and same cost,or clasical elite unit of 8'8 damage but with rend2. they are great but overshadowed by hammerers

-hammerers 8/10 actual scroll but 10/10 when be fixed,note that have one errata and dont have captain,standard neither music(im sensing mails to faq team everyday to try to be fixed with the book faq) is great and very posible undercosted and gonna be nerfed to 180 points in future i think

 

humans:

 

-hurricanum 5/10 without mage and 6/10 with mage,rigth now as it is written is one time each heroic fase even enemy. if it is fixed and it is only in our phase gonna be a 0/10  rigth now being two times each turn(each heroic phase) is a well balanced unit that is useless the turn 1 and 2, then balanced turn 3 and overpower turn 4 and 5 so the first turns that are the importants its a useless waste of points but overpower is lategame,also enemy have 2 turns to kill it before start to be good

-luminark 2/10 only bad as allways have been

-new chimera 0/10 named that cant be enhanced and very low save and damage output for his cost,also 0 utility, only usefull the rally but after the nerfs that got the rally isnt good nowdays

-heroe on gryfon. melle version 0/10 mage version 6/10 the melle have 0 utility and it is only a combatstick with low save and low damage for his cost,cost 280 when have stats of 200 points. the mage have almost the same damage than the melle(even almost double against monsters) while is mage so it is more usefull

-the new heroe on palanquin. 7/10 is good due to be a meta of mages and do mortals to entire enemy team each turn,but is named that is allways bad,also the prayer isnt reliably and his use would be babysit a foot elite unit but humans havent,is slow to follow cavalry and a waste of point to use on rangeds

-steam tanks 8/10 with heroe and 5/10 without hero,have a good damage if we add shoting and melle and the best is his tank role being a great shield unit

-the new marshall. foot version 3/10 and on horse 7/10 the foot version is useless and only one free comand point each turn for 90 points.the horse version is useless his stats but do great the cavalry bomb with his attack first and +2 charge

-the gobapalozas. 3/10 similar to gobapalozas but without mages and with useless habilitys,only worth take in count the cancel one comand of rival with 4+ but 180 for this is a huge no,maybe be usefull in future when they get reduced to 100/120

-battlemage 6/10 a +1 cast mage for 100 is good,but he dont have any personal spell 

-new metal mage 10/10 other +1 cast mage but for 90 and give if needed a aura of +1 save without use dices and have a spell key to do playable the fussiliers

-all the witch hunters heroes 0/10 only bad

-heroe on ogre, 0/10 cost 180 but his stats and damage is of a unit of 120. also his buffs are useless,fusiliers and artillery have 24" range that is allready enougth and even very easy with the order of can move increase his treathrange to even 30"+ so a d6 extra range is useless,need a change to his skill to something as  6 to hit do 2 hits to be usefull or a reduction of 60 points

- artillery 3/10 have similar damage output than lumimeth artillery that cost 120 but ours cost 150. can have one use together the supresive fire order,because it is reliably 3 rend4 damage to give a +3 to the order but dont do overkill to the unit

-fusiliers in msu and unbuffed 4/10 but with fullbufs and in block of 30 a 8/10 base have 5 damage rend1 for 150 when similar units have 8,8 for 160/70 as reavers or blisbarbs,so his cost must be 120 but when full buffed his damage is great and with long range

-cavalry 7/10 in general is ok,worse than chaos knigths or vampires

-steelhems 0/10 horribles,have skinks stats but expensiver, only usefull to do battleline to fusilers

-flagelants 3/10 horrible as stellhems but do marginals mortals when die

 

elfs:

-assassin 2/10 only bad,maybe use as a elf heroe that cant be killed

-sorcerer 10/10 can get easy a +3 cast with setler gain and his skill

-black ark fleetmaster 7/10 give +1 hit and attack to pirates that are one of the best units of the book

-black dragon, melle version 5/10 and with mage 0/10.  the mage have save 5 and not 4 as the gryfon,also no utility low damage and survivality,need cost 200 or get save 4 and ward 5 as the similar units(avatar of idoneths,verminlords,slanesh monsters etc) while the melle got nerfed his breath and save,his stats are overcosted and must cost 220 or so but his reroll carges is very usefull for a list with spam of elfs cavalry and carriots

-hydra 5/10 his damage for cost is low and a bit overcosted,but for only 180 we have acess to monsters habilitys and the regen 5 can do it dont die if isnt focused

-kharidbiss 6/10 have useless damage for cost,but we have monster habilitys for 160 and a whitin aura of cancel rally and inspiring presence have some use

-the dreadspear and bleak swords are a 0/10 but due to his use to buff the sorcerer a 5/10

-darkshards 0/10 now that the ignore save is only for melle they are useless,120 points for 6 no damage rend. must cost 90

-executioners 10/10 the best unit of the book,similar to hammerers but this unit have captain,standar,music.also have one less rend but make mortals that is better,also have access to many buffs where dwarfs havent buffs

-black guard 9/10 phoenyx guard but for 30 less points

-black ark corsairs 10/10 are great, as screen are cheap,do mortals to enemy when attacked and his damage per cost is great.also is the best unit of the book to get hoarfrost and the ignore save spell

-dark riders 5/10 have stats of a unit of 100 points and cost 150. but only for the ignore comand traits of enemy withing 12"  is worth it

-scourgeruner chariot 0/10 nerfed and lost the mortals,have stats of a 40 points but cost 80

-drakespawn charriot 5/10 without combo with knigths or 8/10 with knigths. this unit would be a 10/10 with a smaller base,for only 90 points and if the unit have knigth in combat do 6 mortals that is great,but have a huge base that make very hard or imposible play with many units at the same time

-drakespawn knights 8/10 similar to human cavalry,humans have better damage per points but these for only 140 have 10 wounds save 3 that is as ironbreakers but with double move,so as shields they are great and fast,also have 6,6 rend2 damage + 5 rend 1 damage,again almost 12 damage betwen rend1 and 2 for 140 is great also. and have +1 charge and easy reroll charges with the dragon

Edited August 8, 2023 by Doko

[The Lost Sigmarite]

That's a bit harsh, according to you half the warscrolls are useless. Come on, the Battletome's situation is not that bad.

[Doko]

thats only my opinion seeing the points paid per each one damage done of the units.

seeing the efective health of each unit for their cost.

seeing the utility of abilitys etc.

the book have almost 60 scrolls,so as happen in stormcast many gonna be bad. but even if the book only have one very good unit is enougth to be competitive even if the internal balance is bad

 

also i only said as useless(0) to 12 scrolls of 60,that is way less than the half : ) while 6 are too much good(9 or 10) 

the book is competitive in my opinion,maybe have some huge weakness as too much hero depedent and weak against magic and shooting.

but vs melle armys gonna be umbatable with means to do all our unit attack first(betwen elfs,supresive fire etc)

Edited August 8, 2023 by Doko

[JackStreicher]

For anyone who is interested:

Played 2 games at 800 points VS Stormcast and Ossiarchs. The Scenarios favored me heavily so I won.

Takeaways: Black Guard + Sorceress are satisfying! They deleted a lone hero (buffed with the no armour for you mAtE buff) they tanked the entire buffed Ossiarch army for two turns only losing 9. I love them as anvils or surprise hammers.

The fusiliers did very little (10 wounds across three turns of fully buffed shooting) - Idk what happened here.

Musthavn: Amazing I am sure it will be nerfed (sadly). My Cavalry always hit where I wanted them to

Cavaliers: Imo best cavalry in the game. They‘re solid in every way, they killed key targets with laser focused damage.

[Lord Krungharr]

I think the Cavaliers are BETTER than Chaos Knights despite lacking a MW save and the 3rd wound.  They have more reliable means of speeding up (Orders and/or Misthavn) and natively hit on 3+.  Even Chaos Knights with Nurgle and the Eroding Icon, they can certainly tarpit but still don't kill much without Daemonic Power AND getting the charge off, and when investing a relic like that you pretty much need to go 10 Knights, which like has been said, is a big unwieldly footprint.

I will respectfully disagree with @Doko about the Luminark.  2 points are always colinear, so it's laser beam should be able to always hit 2 units, and it's got the 6+ ward, so that's something.  Since the beam just has to cross the unit, you could be hitting like 6 units with the right positioning...and do that with 3 or 4!  I'm for sure trying that out with removable-turret Steam Tanks with removable kitbashed Luminark arrays.

I do agree with the mage is better, and not many more points, but only being able to take Pha's Protection is certainly meh (though I think taking that once is great to put on a Steam Tank Commander   )

Hurricanum might be alright, but again the spell limitation hurts, and didn't it used to buff casting for nearby wizards?  I think it lost that, which SUCKS.  But now that I'm thinking about it, I think I'd rather just ally in a Lord Ordinator or Vigilors for my Steam Tanks.  Probably Vigilors, as they'll be more versatile probably, and good for my Stormcast army.

All the Dark Aelves really seem solid, and I'm wondering if they're gonna stick around for a few more years into 4th edition AoS?  

[Doko]

im sorry but how is better our human cavalry?,chaos knight for 200 points have 15 wounds for the 10 wounds for 180 of humans,so for only 10% extra points have 50% more wounds with same save and ward to mortals.

its true the damage is the same for 10% extra points,but chaos knigth have 2" and can attack im two ranks,is posible play with units of 15 chaos knigths and attack the 15 while human cavalry is hard or imposible get more than 7 to attack from 15 or 5 from 10.

i dont know if im missing something,because as i see it chaos knigths are 50% better in tankiness and 100% better in damage(if we play with reforced units) or the same in damage as msu.

if we compare units cavalry human must cost 180 but chaos knigths 250 due to his 50% extra wounds and ward to mortals and extra range.

maybe im missing something because chaos knigths arent even close to be worse,they are better and for a huge margin

 

the luminark i agree with you and i was a bit hard with it,maybe more accurate be 4/10 with mage

Edited August 9, 2023 by Doko

[Thugmullet]

I think Cavaliers are the stand out in the new book. On paper there a great unit. And well pointed for there warscroll. My concern is what are they going to do in the game that makes me want to bring them.

They have the tools to work well (good synergy with there mounted hero), good movement and excellent charge bonuses and they will hit better than say dragons for similar points.

But what is there army role? Alpha strike? Sure they can do this, but they don't fly and they deliver there mortals after combat, not after charge, so that alpha is just going to run into a cheap screen I think.

Are they a hammer?  Sure. But now I'm paying 1/4 of my army (360 + 120 hero) to have fast cavalry that needs to hang back behind a screen (more points) so there ready for a counter charge.. I can use cheaper, harder hitting units for that.

And there no anvil at this cost for 20 wounds, even on a 3+..theres two much mw output from good armies around now for them to be used in that role for there cost (Varius, give me back my Elves 😂)

So tldr.. I think there a sign of my concerns for COS with the new book. I think the problem COS had wasn't in points or units. We had good units at good points cost that worked very well in synergy with other units. I think what we lacked was army wide tools that allowed us to compete with the army wide tools the newer books have.

We still have no teleports, so we can't move a unit accross the table to reposition as the battle unfolds.. Those shooters out of range now in the bottom left quater when the actions now in the top right. Too bad, march em up there at 5' a turn. See you in turn 5 buddy 😂

We have no flying that counts and what units that can fly are sub 300 point monsters. They will just melt if they have to take on a Vampire lord for instance, but who else can do it? The cavaliers, they don't fly but that Vampire does, so there not getting a charge in there, that Vampire lord is nice n safe behind his screen. Against an alpha, there's a real chance of pinning this army for the first few turns.

Basically, we're fast but without flying or teleports the army wide mobity is low and the army will be slow to react to changes in the battle. And pinning!!

There's no bonuses for unbinds Anymore, so in this meta that's not great.

Shooting looks ok. But to get it working it'll need point investment. And now I'm just playing a shooting army in a game where movement is king. It'll go good against some armies but pretty much nowhere against others like Nurgle or the water elf idiots.

Spells are excellent that's for sure. But we also lost our cast bonuses, and again that's in a meta of spells when there's a lot of armies out there with buffs to u binds now.. So that's not going to be reliable.

I have other concerns but I'll stop there, this is too long as is.

I also want to say that I'm aware I Havnt played it yet. I'm open to being completely wrong and there could just be a new style of play I Havnt rapped my head around yet and so I can't see what the army style will be. I hope this is the case.

The new book will Def be better than the old. No doubt here, it I think will also be a fun book to play and play against. I'm happy with what theve done.

But from a perspective of tourniment play, I don't think there addressed the problems that made the old book non competitive in this environment. It's mid level tourniment book, 2/3 or 3/2 type of thing. There's just armies out there we won't have the tools to beat consistently.

I do hope I'm cometely wrong and please excuse the novel.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by Thugmullet

[Thugmullet]

17 minutes ago, Thugmullet said:

I think Cavaliers are the stand out in the new book. On paper there a great unit. And well pointed for there warscroll. My concern is what are they going to do in the game that makes me want to bring them.

They have the tools to work well (good synergy with there mounted hero), good movement and excellent charge bonuses and they will hit better than say dragons for similar points.

But what is there army role? Alpha strike? Sure they can do this, but they don't fly and they deliver there mortals after combat, not after charge, so that alpha is just going to run into a cheap screen I think.

Are they a hammer?  Sure. But now I'm paying 1/4 of my army (360 + 120 hero) to have fast cavalry that needs to hang back behind a screen (more points) so there ready for a counter charge.. I can use cheaper, harder hitting units for that.

And there no anvil at this cost for 20 wounds, even on a 3+..theres two much mw output from good armies around now for them to be used in that role for there cost (Varius, give me back my Elves 😂)

So tldr.. I think there a sign of my concerns for COS with the new book. I think the problem COS had wasn't in points or units. We had good units at good points cost that worked very well in synergy with other units. I think what we lacked was army wide tools that allowed us to compete with the army wide tools the newer books have.

We still have no teleports, so we can't move a unit accross the table to reposition as the battle unfolds.. Those shooters out of range now in the bottom left quater when the actions now in the top right. Too bad, march em up there at 5' a turn. See you in turn 5 buddy 😂

We have no flying that counts and what units that can fly are sub 300 point monsters. They will just melt if they have to take on a Vampire lord for instance, but who else can do it? The cavaliers, they don't fly but that Vampire does, so there not getting a charge in there, that Vampire lord is nice n safe behind his screen. Against an alpha, there's a real chance of pinning this army for the first few turns.

Basically, we're fast but without flying or teleports the army wide mobity is low and the army will be slow to react to changes in the battle. And pinning!!

There's no bonuses for unbinds Anymore, so in this meta that's not great.

Shooting looks ok. But to get it working it'll need point investment. And now I'm just playing a shooting army in a game where movement is king. It'll go good against some armies but pretty much nowhere against others like Nurgle or the water elf idiots.

Spells are excellent that's for sure. But we also lost our cast bonuses, and again that's in a meta of spells when there's a lot of armies out there with buffs to u binds now.. So that's not going to be reliable.

I have other concerns but I'll stop there, this is too long as is.

I also want to say that I'm aware I Havnt played it yet. I'm open to being completely wrong and there could just be a new style of play I Havnt rapped my head around yet and so I can't see what the army style will be. I hope this is the case.

The new book will Def be better than the old. No doubt here, it I think will also be a fun book to play and play against. I'm happy with what theve done.

But from a perspective of tourniment play, I don't think there addressed the problems that made the old book non competitive in this environment. It's mid level tourniment book, 2/3 or 3/2 type of thing. There's just armies out there we won't have the tools to beat consistently. It's the last book as well, or second last anyway. So as time goes on power level will drop.

I do hope I'm cometely wrong and please excuse the novel.

 

 

 

 

Double post. Sorry all. . Can admin remove please?

Edited August 9, 2023 by Thugmullet

[LiftForSwift]

On 8/8/2023 at 3:37 AM, Austin said:

How do people feel about allies? I’d like to include either Annihilators or Fulminators as a sort of back line defender for the gun line, with some bite. 

A Mega-gargant with a greenstuffed or plasticard helmet in the style of the Steelhelms, and a giant shield on one arm made out of bits from the greatcannon!

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, Thugmullet said:

water elf idiots.

Leave my Fish boys and girls alone ;/

 

Imo Excelsis for Cavaliers is a trap

Role of the cavaliers: Scalpels. In misthaven they get to move 2D6 at the end of the herophase, combined with an order of a Cavalier marshal that‘s +3“ to move in the movement phase. That‘s a 37“ threat range including the charge. Without the charge it’s on average a 20“ move which is awesome.

They can score the following battle tactics: Mount the charge and bring full arms to bear (they will finish the suppressed unit off)

I agree with most of your concerns, especially that we lack magical defenses (unless I‘ve missed sth.)

 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 hour ago, Thugmullet said:

I think Cavaliers are the stand out in the new book. On paper there a great unit. And well pointed for there warscroll. My concern is what are they going to do in the game that makes me want to bring them.

They have the tools to work well (good synergy with there mounted hero), good movement and excellent charge bonuses and they will hit better than say dragons for similar points.

But what is there army role? Alpha strike? Sure they can do this, but they don't fly and they deliver there mortals after combat, not after charge, so that alpha is just going to run into a cheap screen I think.

Are they a hammer?  Sure. But now I'm paying 1/4 of my army (360 + 120 hero) to have fast cavalry that needs to hang back behind a screen (more points) so there ready for a counter charge.. I can use cheaper, harder hitting units for that.

And there no anvil at this cost for 20 wounds, even on a 3+..theres two much mw output from good armies around now for them to be used in that role for there cost (Varius, give me back my Elves 😂)

So tldr.. I think there a sign of my concerns for COS with the new book. I think the problem COS had wasn't in points or units. We had good units at good points cost that worked very well in synergy with other units. I think what we lacked was army wide tools that allowed us to compete with the army wide tools the newer books have.

We still have no teleports, so we can't move a unit accross the table to reposition as the battle unfolds.. Those shooters out of range now in the bottom left quater when the actions now in the top right. Too bad, march em up there at 5' a turn. See you in turn 5 buddy 😂

We have no flying that counts and what units that can fly are sub 300 point monsters. They will just melt if they have to take on a Vampire lord for instance, but who else can do it? The cavaliers, they don't fly but that Vampire does, so there not getting a charge in there, that Vampire lord is nice n safe behind his screen. Against an alpha, there's a real chance of pinning this army for the first few turns.

Basically, we're fast but without flying or teleports the army wide mobity is low and the army will be slow to react to changes in the battle. And pinning!!

There's no bonuses for unbinds Anymore, so in this meta that's not great.

Shooting looks ok. But to get it working it'll need point investment. And now I'm just playing a shooting army in a game where movement is king. It'll go good against some armies but pretty much nowhere against others like Nurgle or the water elf idiots.

Spells are excellent that's for sure. But we also lost our cast bonuses, and again that's in a meta of spells when there's a lot of armies out there with buffs to u binds now.. So that's not going to be reliable.

I have other concerns but I'll stop there, this is too long as is.

I also want to say that I'm aware I Havnt played it yet. I'm open to being completely wrong and there could just be a new style of play I Havnt rapped my head around yet and so I can't see what the army style will be. I hope this is the case.

The new book will Def be better than the old. No doubt here, it I think will also be a fun book to play and play against. I'm happy with what theve done.

But from a perspective of tourniment play, I don't think there addressed the problems that made the old book non competitive in this environment. It's mid level tourniment book, 2/3 or 3/2 type of thing. There's just armies out there we won't have the tools to beat consistently.

I do hope I'm cometely wrong and please excuse the novel.

 

 

 

 

Just a few quick comments:

This army has good casting if you want it too. +1 or 3d6 casting from allegiance abilities. +1 to cast on warscroll for alchemite and battlemage. +2 for sorceress. Good spells, too: Pall of Doom, Pha's Protection, Tenebral Blade...

As for comparing our units point-for-point to other battletomes, just don't. This army is extremely high synergy in a way that other armies are not: Through orders. That makes it very difficult to evaluate at the moment because basically nobody knows how that system actually plays. Those 10" move cavaliers might well be counter-charging something or actually be 13" move plus fighting a strikes-last opponent because of suppressive fire. Our units generally have far stats but nothing on their warscrolls because the complexity is in their allegiance abilities.

There are a few very good units in this book. The alchemite is, at worst, a free, non-interactable +1 to saves for 90 points. Also gives the best offensive buff in the game at +1 to cast. The Pontifex is probably just about 50 points to cheap. Just have her in your army for free movement or mortals board wide. Tahlia Vedra has rally on 4+, which can be rally into combat in vindicarum. Cavaliers have a million synergies to choose from. I think even the steam tank is no longer a meme: It's a sturdy hero that gives out orders, tanks and provides suppressive fire at the front lines. And that's not even getting into elves and dwarves.

The problem from my point of view is less that this army has no path to victory, it is more that there are several, but you really need to commit to them and they rely on skill expression in form of good use of orders.

[The Lost Sigmarite]

7 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

I think the Cavaliers are BETTER than Chaos Knights despite lacking a MW save and the 3rd wound.  They have more reliable means of speeding up (Orders and/or Misthavn) and natively hit on 3+.  Even Chaos Knights with Nurgle and the Eroding Icon, they can certainly tarpit but still don't kill much without Daemonic Power AND getting the charge off, and when investing a relic like that you pretty much need to go 10 Knights, which like has been said, is a big unwieldly footprint.

1 hour ago, JackStreicher said:

Imo Excelsis for Cavaliers is a trap

Role of the cavaliers: Scalpels. In misthaven they get to move 2D6 at the end of the herophase, combined with an order of a Cavalier marshal that‘s +3“ to move in the movement phase. That‘s a 37“ threat range including the charge. Without the charge it’s on average a 20“ move which is awesome.

They can score the following battle tactics: Mount the charge and bring full arms to bear (they will finish the suppressed unit off)

I would use Cavaliers a bit like how OBR players use their Deathriders :

1. Put them as forward as possible and push up the board to pin the opposing army in its deployment zone while the rest of your army moves up and claims the mid-board objectives (unless you're Aelves you're pretty slow). If you're lucky they will survive into turn 2, so you can retreat to live another turn (sadly no retreat and charge).
2. Keep them in the backline for the first turns then charge with the Cavaliers on the flanks.

And I do agree with @Lord Krungharr going to 10 Cavaliers is a trap because of the unwieldy footprint. They're better in 5 man squads. In 1000 pts, 1 unit is more than enough but for 2000 pts, I think 3x5 Cavaliers is the sweet spot. 

Edited August 9, 2023 by The Lost Sigmarite

[Asbestress]

I know it's not numbers crunching or rules analysis, but

It kinda defeats the purpose of the Cult of the Wheel, but I really want a big massive War Altar that looks like it can trudge through a swamp in an armoured column with Steam Tanks (and 1 Hurricanum/Luminark with unglued top is plenty enough for me from the Broken Realms box). Maybe use the carriers for something else Devoted related as an objective marker/thematic extra (Statue Bearers? Holy Grail "artillery"?).

Edited August 9, 2023 by Asbestress

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

unless you're Aelves you're pretty slow

My experience (only two games so far) was that the army is quick due to orders (+Misthavn). I could cross the board in roughly 2 turns with my humans.

d6+3+5 movement and maybe +D6 run.

on average that‘s 11 + 3 inches for up to 3 units.

If you spike it’s 14-20“

Edited August 9, 2023 by JackStreicher
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