AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion

[The Lost Sigmarite]

Honestly, an upgrade sprue would be enough, you just need new CoS shields to go on its flanks and a new commander. I might convert a commander from a Marshal, and for the shields, keeping the flanks bare would speed up painting.

[Lord Krungharr]

I plan on doing freehand Bob Ross landscapes on my Stanks.  No shields.  Guess who the Commander will look like?!

[The Lost Sigmarite]

1 minute ago, Lord Krungharr said:

I plan on doing freehand Bob Ross landscapes on my Stanks.  No shields.  Guess who the Commander will look like?!

So your Steam Tanks can be happy little Steam Tanks

[Colonic]

Its odd the Drakespawn Chariots don't get a champion in 3's but the Scourgerunner Chariots do!

[Asbestress]

3 hours ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

Honestly, an upgrade sprue would be enough, you just need new CoS shields to go on its flanks and a new commander. I might convert a commander from a Marshal, and for the shields, keeping the flanks bare would speed up painting.

Imho the Fusil-Major from the big ogor crow's nest would be perfect for a Tank Commander. He even has the big sniper rifle built in!

[Greyshadow]

So happy with this new Battletome! I am looking forward to porting over my existing Freeguild army and playing a few games. I plan on adding pavises to my hand gunners and sticking my Greatcannon and Helblaster on 100 mm (?) rounds and off I go.

[Asbestress]

Just found a lore reference to the Helblaster getting cut:

[Doko]

seeing the tierlist of honestwargame youtuve channel i used his plates to my PERSONAL tierlist only for competitive(this tier is only about the eficiency for cost of each unit).

what about your tier?is allways fun see tierlist(as gacha games fan XD)

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by Doko

[Satyrical Sophist]

2 hours ago, Doko said:

seeing the tierlist of honestwargame youtuve channel i used his plates to my PERSONAL tierlist only for competitive(this tier is only about the eficiency for cost of each unit).

what about your tier?is allways fun see tierlist(as gacha games fan XD)

 

I commented this on the video, but he rated drakespawn chariots in the bad tier without actually reading what it did. I'm curious to see where he'd put it if he did. 90 points for an average 3 mortal wounds unbuffed and 4.67 buffed(with drake knights that he put in A tier) seems like a worthwhile thing to grab. 

[Doko]

yes i really like it in paper,i dont know how factible is in reality with that huge base.

for sure i think they are very good and yes this guy makes many of these vids only for get views and get money even if he havent even read the scrolls and he is wrong

[The Lost Sigmarite]

3 hours ago, Doko said:

seeing the tierlist of honestwargame youtuve channel i used his plates to my PERSONAL tierlist only for competitive(this tier is only about the eficiency for cost of each unit).

what about your tier?is allways fun see tierlist(as gacha games fan XD)

 

Great because let's face it Honest Wargamer is not really honest most of the time. Honestly good tierlist, I wouldve put Steelhelms in front of Bleakswords in the tier list though, same for Longbeards they should be higher in B tier imo.

What's your thought process for putting the Warcry band in B tier ?

[Doko]

oh the order inside of each tier is random,i didnt think about get them in order inside each tier also.

hnnnn the warcry warband if i must be honest im biased as zelestra,its personal,but to me they are UGLY miniatures so i only did a fast reading and put them there because usually hybryd units with shooting and melle are bad.

you need spend double comand points to get the same damage than only melle or shooting units(you need all out attack on shooting AND melle).

so this warcry band in paper have very good damage per points but being melle\shooting i dont like it.

but b tier isnt bad,b tier is balanced.

if you want i could do a better maths numbers about this unit but in short have stats of A tier but i put it in B due to be hybrid

[Lord Krungharr]

What's that unit on the far left of the S Tier?  Excecutioners?  I would agree with that.  Gonna have to get myself 20 of those I think.

Hammerers are intriguing, but would require at least the Runelord to really make them shine for Rend-3, so I think some of the tier ratings really need accompaniments from the other tiers/cannot perform necessarily on their own.  I don't think the Hammerers need a Warden King, but the King needs them.  

The Sorceress is amazing IF she can be getting her spells off.   She would need an expensive entourage in the form of 10 Dreadspears (for sacrificing), at least 10 Black Guard (for the mutual ward save), the Epiphany Anklet (to extend her range of spells) and then probably to be the general to get Secretive Warlock for the extra casting buff.  But if she gets Tenebrael Blades off on something like Archaon or Katakros, WOOT!  Worth every point, but very iffy.

The Luminark I think has play in multiples, but not necessarily on its own.  The big 6+ ward bubble is useful, as is Pha's Protection with the Mage.  But yeah, not S Tier probably (I'll report after I use it in Living City someday soon).  

Surprised that the Corsairs are S Tier?  Cuz they're cheap?  And which armament, double blades or shooty/blade?  To get them to 30 dudes the Pirate Captain has to be general for battleline purposes.  Not sure that's worth doing at all, but if taking them in 20 at least for sure worth taking the Captain for the extra attacks.  60 shooties (maybe after the T Blades spell?) or 80 choppies, that's a BOATload of attacks!  

[Doko]

yes that unit is ejecutioners.

hammerers are great because they dont need any buff,only 150 points for 17'5 rend2 damage is crazy,dont need rend3 because rend2 is enough

the sorceress is s tier because in this meta a mage that have +2 cast or even +4(settler gain and the warlord trait of elfs) and isnt unique so can cast the primal spells is CRAZY

the luminark would be b tier if the ward would works with all and not only humans,by the way the best use of the luminark is getting it behind your screen and do defensive fire with his attack that is a shoothing attack and not skill as the hurricanum

corsairs are s tier with double weapons, only 90 points for 30 attacks is godly,also they are the best unit to buff with the hoaxfrost spell and the ignore save of elfs. a unit of 20 corsairs with the +1 attack of the hero,with the ignore saves can kill almost any unit or heroe on the game. they are allways equiped with two swords,the damage is the same than with shooty but the hoarfrost and ignore save are only for melle.

trust me this corsair bomb is the best combo of the book and only 20 corsairs do around 35 mortals wounds(ignore save) that can kill even archaon

[Lord Krungharr]

AND the Corsairs come with the Anvilguard box, and I want at least 2 of the sea monsters anyways

Ninja pirates are cooler than plain old pistol pirates, you've convinced me on double blades.

Seems like many of these older Cities units function reasonably well on their own and could sneak up on people.  Sort of like multiple threat overload similar to Khorne likes to do (though for different reasons).  

Ooh wow, I missed the +2 to cast for the Sacrifice of the Sorceress.  That's super good.  

Edited August 15, 2023 by Lord Krungharr

[JackStreicher]

Copied from another thread concerning Fusiliers:

I had another two games today. One with 2x10 Fusiliers, one with only 10.

I didn’t have a MW Mage yet. My general has the +1 to wound CT.

They do VERY little. They are fast with a long range but their output has plainly been bad in all of the 4 games I‘ve played with them.

20 dealt 12 wounds across 5x shooting (one unit shot 3x) against 4+ armour saves (skaven) that usually used all out defense. For 300 points + 90 ots for a hero and + 50 pts for needing a CP that’s bad.

They‘re completely useless without all out attack, they do nothing with unleash hell and firing back at someone who shot them does NOTHING again.

Their reroll is irrelevant since it’s locked to turn 3 (the game‘s often over at that point).

In my experience the unit is overcosted and overhyped . It might be an issue if you put the MortalWoundForger Spell on a unit of 20+, but that’s it.

The Base 4+, 4+ really kills the unit.

[Lord Krungharr]

For my Cthulhu Cult Cities army, wondering if it's just terrible to ally in Bundo Whalebiter the megagargant....of course making him into a Cthulhu monster with a Mutalith face and tiny wings and scary claws of some sort?  He's 440 points, is the one who can kick objectives, and stuff up to three tiny enemies in his net.  Not bad actually, much better than the crappy One Eyed Grunnock Warstomper that Chaos gets.  

Wondering if too much theme will sacrifice viability.  I could do 2 Kharybdisses and 2 WarHydras instead for the monsters.  War Hydras do seem superior for the shooting and healing, but the no Inspiring Presence/Rally bubbles are pretty nice too actually.  

[Lord Krungharr]

7 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Copied from another thread concerning Fusiliers:

 

I had another two games today. One with 2x10 Fusiliers, one with only 10.

I didn’t have a MW Mage yet. My general has the +1 to wound CT.

They do VERY little. They are fast with a long range but their output has plainly been bad in all of the 4 games I‘ve played with them.

20 dealt 12 wounds across 5x shooting (one unit shot 3x) against 4+ armour saves (skaven) that usually used all out defense. For 300 points + 90 ots for a hero and + 50 pts for needing a CP that’s bad.

They‘re completely useless without all out attack, they do nothing with unleash hell and firing back at someone who shot them does NOTHING again.

Their reroll is irrelevant since it’s locked to turn 3 (the game‘s often over at that point).

In my experience the unit is overcosted and overhyped . It might be an issue if you put the MortalWoundForger Spell on a unit of 20+, but that’s it.

The Base 4+, 4+ really kills the unit.

Wow I though the Fusiliers were 3+/3+.  That does stink, but they are feeble regular humans.  Elves should be the 3+/3+!  Like Legolas.   My S'Tanks only hit of 4s naturally too but the Commander/Lord Ordinator/Vigilors will help that out.  Maybe you need a Hurricanum or Vigilor allies to help them out?  Since you'll be targeting usually 1 unit with them, Vigilors would make sense.  Hurricanum of course is always on while it's alive, and might be good to have a wizard present, plus the late MW shooties.

[JackStreicher]

13 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Wow I though the Fusiliers were 3+/3+.  That does stink, but they are feeble regular humans.  Elves should be the 3+/3+!  Like Legolas.   My S'Tanks only hit of 4s naturally too but the Commander/Lord Ordinator/Vigilors will help that out.  Maybe you need a Hurricanum or Vigilor allies to help them out?  Since you'll be targeting usually 1 unit with them, Vigilors would make sense.  Hurricanum of course is always on while it's alive, and might be good to have a wizard present, plus the late MW shooties.

You‘d invest a lot if points to make an already expensive unit perform like it should without any buffs. Idk too many eggs in one basket if you‘d ask me.

If Fusiliers couldn’t be reinforced I‘d argue they‘re a 100-120 pts unit.

One could also say that Fusiliers are how shooting should be, the rest of AoS‘s shooting is simply, utterly out of whack.

 

Edit: Concerning our buying choices this means that playing 10 on their own is senseless, one‘d need at least 20 per unit I‘d wager (judging by GW’s pricing policy that‘s 100€/unit - that’s rough, 120$ )

Edited August 15, 2023 by JackStreicher

[Doko]

36 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

AND the Corsairs come with the Anvilguard box, and I want at least 2 of the sea monsters anyways

yup,i bougth one of these box but i got also a single box of pirates because i dont like the style of the kharybdys,the heads and the head on the chest is horrible to me,so i only need one hydra that i love(but it would be better with other pose with the 4 feets on the ground)

by the way if you havent buy these anvingard boxes yet get hurry because gw have deleted it allready of their website

[Doko]

9 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

You‘d invest a lot if points to make an already expensive unit perform like it should without any buffs. Idk too many eggs in one basket if you‘d ask me.

If Fusiliers couldn’t be reinforced I‘d argue they‘re a 100-120 pts unit.

One could also say that Fusiliers are how shooting should be, the rest of AoS‘s shooting is simply, utterly out of whack.

 

Edit: Concerning our buying choices this means that playing 10 on their own is senseless, one‘d need at least 20 per unit I‘d wager (judging by GW’s pricing policy that‘s 100€/unit - that’s rough, is that ~ 160-180$ ?)

yup as i said many times,the fussilers must cost around 120 points but people are too much hyped with new humans.

but this unit have some uses in my theorycrafting:

one big unit of 30+unit of 10+metal mage giving the +1hit and wound to the unit of 30 and the mortals with 6 to both units.

the msu unit of 10 have low damage,his use is together the supresive fire order give attack last to a enemy unit very reliably

the unit of 30 with all these buffs can dish out 10 mortals at 32" that is pretty good and also do these 10 mortals with defensive fire doing them hard to be chargued while being also veeeeery hards at shotting(only ranged with mortals wounds delete us as sentinels or dok snakes)

 

so even if i agree that fusiliers are overcosted,they are a key and the core of every one of my list.

that attack last to enemy is needed with my hammerers,and we need have that shooting damage to do some tactics

[Lord Krungharr]

The random shots of the Steam Tanks will probably prove very frustratingly swingy, especially without any rend on them (not counting the single/double rend-2 shots).  But they are at least theoretically durable and can usually hit better with the right heroes in range.  I'm emailing GW tonight and messaging them on Facebook that War Machines need to count as 5 models for objectives in the next Battlescroll Update.  Then they'd be definitely maybe worth it, and I have 7 of them already.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

8 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

Copied from another thread concerning Fusiliers:

 

I had another two games today. One with 2x10 Fusiliers, one with only 10.

I didn’t have a MW Mage yet. My general has the +1 to wound CT.

They do VERY little. They are fast with a long range but their output has plainly been bad in all of the 4 games I‘ve played with them.

20 dealt 12 wounds across 5x shooting (one unit shot 3x) against 4+ armour saves (skaven) that usually used all out defense. For 300 points + 90 ots for a hero and + 50 pts for needing a CP that’s bad.

They‘re completely useless without all out attack, they do nothing with unleash hell and firing back at someone who shot them does NOTHING again.

Their reroll is irrelevant since it’s locked to turn 3 (the game‘s often over at that point).

In my experience the unit is overcosted and overhyped . It might be an issue if you put the MortalWoundForger Spell on a unit of 20+, but that’s it.

The Base 4+, 4+ really kills the unit.

I'm not surprised these guys are not doing much for you in 10s and without the mortal wound spell. That spell really is what makes them go from just decent to great.

I would say the Fusiliers don't do much without support. 4+/4+ is just not a very good profile. But they can easily be 3+/3+, and the damag out of a buffed block of 20 already looks decent on paper.

However, what competitive players are planning to do is run blocks of 30 with the mortal wound buff. And that is pretty absurd, because  at that point they easily point-and-click remove units. And you can't shoot them because of Fortified Position and Return Fire. And you can't charge them because you get the mortal wounds on Unleash Hell as well if the spell goes off. Plus they give you potentially two battle tactics. Also, that mortal wound spell is an aura for no reason, so feel free to slap even more shooting into that bubble.

Personally, I think Fusiliers will be good until the Alchemite warscroll gets errata'd (because even at 200 points that guy is probably still viable). The combo is strong and has very few moving parts to disrupt. You just need to get the spell off.

[Beliman]

@Doko, thx for the answer!

9 hours ago, Doko said:

i dont have the kharadrons book,if the scroll that i found on wahapedia is actual and only with aethershot rifle(because it is a chaos the others weapons haha).

have 10w save3 and 6'6 rend1 damage, the cost must be around 150 but his skill of supressive fire for a -1 hit is pretty cool but its his special skill as reavers +1 hit or blisbarbs run and shoot

What I don't understand is why Thunderers should cost 150p (or more) and Fusiliers need to be 130p. Even if Thunderers have a better hit and save (3+ vs 4+), they have less dmg and less range than Fussiliers (18" vs 24"):

They both have their own abilities: One has Supressing Fire, but Fusiliers have Fortified Position. But remember that Supressing Fire is behind a 2D6 moral check and Fortified Position don't need any roll to trigger.

Btw, I'm not saying that Thunderers are bad (they are the MVPs of KOs), and they needed that points nerf in the last GHB. But their warscroll is not that stong, the whole problem was because KOs synergies are so good that even costing 165p, they continued to be used in tournaments.

Maybe Fusiliers are exactly the same for Cities of Sigmar.

[The Lost Sigmarite]

10 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

Copied from another thread concerning Fusiliers:

 

I had another two games today. One with 2x10 Fusiliers, one with only 10.

I didn’t have a MW Mage yet. My general has the +1 to wound CT.

They do VERY little. They are fast with a long range but their output has plainly been bad in all of the 4 games I‘ve played with them.

20 dealt 12 wounds across 5x shooting (one unit shot 3x) against 4+ armour saves (skaven) that usually used all out defense. For 300 points + 90 ots for a hero and + 50 pts for needing a CP that’s bad.

They‘re completely useless without all out attack, they do nothing with unleash hell and firing back at someone who shot them does NOTHING again.

Their reroll is irrelevant since it’s locked to turn 3 (the game‘s often over at that point).

In my experience the unit is overcosted and overhyped . It might be an issue if you put the MortalWoundForger Spell on a unit of 20+, but that’s it.

The Base 4+, 4+ really kills the unit.

Quite interesting...

Mayber for a base 150p shooting piece, maybe the cannon is better. Let's roll out the arguments for the cannon :

1. Doesn't need to be babysitted as much as the Fusiliers
2. Acess to -4 rend

Obviously this needs to be put to the test on the tabletop, but in regards of the Fusiliers not being as great in practice compared as on the paper, maybe we've been sleeping on the cannon ?