Incarnates Rules Discussion

[JackStreicher]

If I‘ll ever play this (too much rules bloat imo) I‘d just print the 8$ bone snake.

if anybody in germany will buy the kit and would be willing to part with the waterfall building: pm me!

[Beliman]

100% agree with @JackStreicher.

I'm curious to see other Incarnates, specifically the chamonite one.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

4 minutes ago, Beliman said:

100% agree with @JackStreicher.

I'm curious to see other Incarnates, specifically the chamonite one.

I wonder what future incarnates will be like. If they are all ~400 points models on huge bases, whey will probably have to be sold individually. In that case, I would probably expect one Incarnate per Realmscape box they do.

The other option would be an Incarnates of the Realms box, like the Endless Spell packs we currently have. That would be what I'd prefer: Quickly getting an Incarnate for every realm out there so that anybody can feel good about including them in their army no matter what realm they are from.

[Baron Klatz]

3 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

+++ MOD HAT +++

Just a reminder - no leaked photos please...  Some of you have been here long enough to know this

Whoops! My mistake!

I thought the book was close enough to release that it wouldn’t matter too much now. 
 

Won’t happen again. 😅

Looking forward to buying the limited edition copy this weekend. All that narrative & open play focus is super worth it for me! (And with Soulbound’s roadmap having Dawn Crusades & Excelsis on it’s future supplements there’s even more great ways to see the flora and fauna of the Realm of Beasts!)

3 hours ago, Kramig said:

Gw said in an article on warcom that it will be sold separately in future, didn't it? 

Looking through all the Krondspine articles I don’t see anything but it’s a pretty safe bet regardless. The only way I could see it stuck in a bundle is if in July we jump to a new Realm for the season of war and the leave these Strongpoints as realm benchmarks for each season.

But with how Krondspine seems to be just one type of regional elemental we could see a few more pop up before we move on from Ghur.(I’m looking forward to how Aqshy & Chamon’s will play. I can imagine a Realm of Metal spirit being big on All-out defense and buffing saves with it increasing the Metal quality of armor or even metallizing skin around it if you want a cyborg army excuse that can be a interesting kaiju counter to Krondspine)

 

(also quick personal opinion, I don’t really see this as rules bloat with it just taking existing rules of battleshock & monster wound charts and applying them in a new way. That’s more a rules spin)

[pnkdth]

Some thoughts:

• Adds a 'monster' keyword to factions who lack them.
• Solid profile for factions who lack a punchy monster.
• Wild state does not seem like much of a hindrance with M12" and R&C.
• Potential band-aid unit for low tier factions yet won't add much to top tier since it has to compete with already powerful units.
• Interesting toolkit unit (pinning units in place + modifiers).

I don't see myself buying one because of the majestically bad decision on putting it with overpriced terrain. 3D printing + kitbashing is the way forward since I won't support GW with one of the greediest FOMO boxes I've seen yet... And it does not even include the book. I really hope this particular type of box flops hard and it seems most people are already looking at alternate models. If this is a sign of the community finally saying enough is enough this might lead to a good thing.

As a concept though, it is cool and if the next incarnations add more sidegrade stuff it could be a solid addition. Probably end up getting the book and ignore the model till it is releases separately if the price is acceptable. Super frustrated I cannot simply buy what I want but I guess they rather I bought 3rd party models/3D print it. 🤷‍♂️

[Baron Klatz]

For what it’s worth I’d at least not classify it as FOMO since no one’s really worried about missing out. A lot of players are saying they’ll just wait for when it’s separate and GW hasn’t been marketing any “hurry and buy now before it’s too late!”.

That it’s super easy to kit-bash with monster parts, swirls and a crystal/focal point makes it more a chill release.

Only people who are gonna rush are meta chasers and big collectors with money to burn, not the average player scared to be left out. The Thondia book isn’t even really aimed at Matched play, it’s only got one or two pages for that(the Krondspine triumphs) so it’s not a forced necessity like the 40k books are.

I agree on the other points though. Very helpful beastie for factions who need a heavy weight in the Realm of Beasts. 💪🦁

[Kadeton]

Yeah, the rules are fairly compelling but the combination of a pretty uninspiring model and the ridiculous upsell packaging (I already have plenty of terrain, thanks) is definitely pushing me towards 3D-printing an alternative. Feels like GW have really shot themselves in the foot with this one.

[Baron Klatz]

6 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

Feels like GW have really shot themselves in the foot with this one.

PR-wise yes but let’s not blow it out of proportion on sales. We had nearly this exact conversation on the Sons of Behemat release and soon after battle reports with them had comments going “so it should be about $900 for a full force? Okay thanks, I can swing that! Excited for my first AoS army!” and now Sons are a common sight.

A $200 power buff is a lot easier to swallow in comparison to that colossal(  ) investment.

But yeah, Krondspine + Thondia tome would’ve been a better move and not make people like me split the costs with other players wanting that set.

I’d guess they wanted to move the terrain more than anything(probably due to the overseas complications).

[Kadeton]

8 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

We had nearly this exact conversation on the Sons of Behemat release and soon after battle reports with them had comments going “so it should be about $900 for a full force? Okay thanks, I can swing that! Excited for my first AoS army!” and now Sons are a common sight.

Perhaps. But if you needed to spend $900 on Sons to make an army and were also forced to spend an additional $1600 on scenery at the same time, they probably would have been a lot less popular.

[Baron Klatz]

17 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

Perhaps. But if you needed to spend $900 on Sons to make an army and were also forced to spend an additional $1600 on scenery at the same time, they probably would have been a lot less popular.

Haha, that’s true enough. 
 

Though there’d still be a market for it. Like the Deepkin have shown, you can’t stop whales from taking off.  

 

Regardless I’m excited for my limited edition tome and getting to try out some test games with a proxy for the time being.

My brother’s new Fyreslayer army should get a lot of mileage out of the spirit with their recent hero buffs making them good enough to fight alongside it and burn through their runes.  

[novakai]

I believe they said in the Adepticon panel that they would be available liable separately at a later day

[pnkdth]

14 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

Though there’d still be a market for it. Like the Deepkin have shown, you can’t stop whales from taking off.

Released in different tiers. They more you paid for it the more powerful profile you can use. 😂

[Baron Klatz]

18 minutes ago, pnkdth said:

Released in different tiers. They more you paid for it the more powerful profile you can use. 😂

Now that will be the Realm of Metal incarnate.

The gold beast-golem you add more money to from your purchase.

(High five to anyone who gets the reference here)

28 minutes ago, novakai said:

I believe they said in the Adepticon panel that they would be available liable separately at a later day

(I want that aqualith waterfall tho so still game on for me getting Strongpoint)

[Mutton]

The final sentence in the Incarnate's monstrous rampage shouldn't exist. If half of the model's function is to eat endless spells, it shouldn't also be punished for trying to do it. I guarantee you that this ensures no one will ever try to eat endless spells with this thing--the risk of killing your own 400 point model is just too significant.

[Baron Klatz]

I think It’d be too OP if it auto-deleted them and would result in the opposite effect of people not bothering to bring Endless Spells(a much worse outcome on the Power Creep side).

It can target smaller Endless Spells with a better chance while if you know your opponent is slinging around predatory army eaters you have the option of either taking a gamble as the two magic titans clash, making sure your spirit is well fed on levels before having it tackle the Spell or just make sure it’s domination range is affecting the enemy mage so they have a harder time casting the Endless Spell.

It’s got options without making Living Spells feel like obsolete 2nd edition gimmicks but instead can duke it out with the arcane alpha hunter. That feels like a good middle ground. IMO.

[Mutton]

1 hour ago, Baron Klatz said:

I think It’d be too OP if it auto-deleted them and would result in the opposite effect of people not bothering to bring Endless Spells(a much worse outcome on the Power Creep side).

Didn't say it should auto-delete. You still have to roll above the casting value on 2d6 (essentially make a dispel roll). My point was that the punishment for failing the roll shouldn't actively hurt you. Delete the last sentence of the rampage ability.

[Fert]

2 hours ago, Mutton said:

Didn't say it should auto-delete. You still have to roll above the casting value on 2d6 (essentially make a dispel roll). My point was that the punishment for failing the roll shouldn't actively hurt you. Delete the last sentence of the rampage ability.

Sure, it does actively hurt you and that is ok because it can also actively help you.  If you decide to use it while weakened then its a definite gamble... but the pay off is big, taking you back to primal...  HUGE!  And remember it is 100% optional, a tool in a toolkit.  You get choose the gamble and when.  I'd agree 100% If it was a forced ability... like, "has to charge an endless spell in range and attempt this monstrous rampage" then it would be a big problem.  But again it's optional and very very strong if you do get it off... like crazy strong.

[yukishiro1]

Yeah, I think it's totally fine. It's super strong if you get it off, especially if you get it off on level 1 on a turn where you'd otherwise die.

In fact it's so strong that I think the effect will just be that you never, ever get the chance to do it because nobody is going to be dumb enough to position their endless spell somewhere where you could. Except maybe for stuff like warp lightning because the casting value is high enough to make it a real gamble. Anything with a 5 or 6 casting value is just suicidal. 

[Baron Klatz]

10 minutes ago, Fert said:

a tool in a toolkit.

That’s my take. This thing is a Swiss Army knife, it does a whole slew of things from being an mobile anvil, shredder, rampager, army buffer, magic debuffer and then the spell eater.

it can afford to have some gambles when it already has places in several other strategies.(and yeah, the gamble goes way down if it’s empowered or primal and can just go after another target if steroids PAC-man bites back)

[NinthMusketeer]

I'm excited to run it in narrative, as for matched I think it is going to have a big impact on the tourney meta. That it takes a minimum of two turns to kill no matter what is a really big deal, similar to Morathi in that way. Also the running 'wild' is hardly such since you still control it, so there isn't a reliability issue.

[Beliman]

4 hours ago, NinthMusketeer said:

Also the running 'wild' is hardly such since you still control it, so there isn't a reliability issue.

The Incarnate seems better if it's in Wild Form. It can run + charge with +1hit (and FLY). 

That means that you can move 12"+1D6 (that can be re-rolled if needed) to put the Incarnate 12.1" away from your units and then still charge with 2D6+re-rolls and hit harder than before.

[Kadeton]

15 minutes ago, Beliman said:

The Incarnate seems better if it's in Wild Form. It can run + charge with +1hit (and FLY). 

That means that you can move 12"+1D6 (that can be re-rolled if needed) to put the Incarnate 12.1" away from your units and then still charge with 2D6+re-rolls and hit harder than before.

Also, once it goes Wild, it can eat your Endless Spells (since your Wizards are now treated as enemies) so you can chuck out low-casting-value stuff like Malevolent Maelstrom to keep it well-fed and to lead it away from your forces if necessary. It feels like there will be tactical approaches where it's an advantage to kamikaze the bonded hero into the enemy in order to deliberately drive the Incarnate wild.

[Marcvs]

31 minutes ago, Beliman said:

The Incarnate seems better if it's in Wild Form. It can run + charge with +1hit (and FLY). 

That means that you can move 12"+1D6 (that can be re-rolled if needed) to put the Incarnate 12.1" away from your units and then still charge with 2D6+re-rolls and hit harder than before.

Not even 12.1" it just need to be closer to an enemy unit or endless spells more than it is to your units so that you have the option to send it there if it makes the charge

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

3 hours ago, Beliman said:

The Incarnate seems better if it's in Wild Form.

If it actually pans out like that, it will probably become a big point of contention. People are already kind of negative on the Incarnate because it's only available in a terrain bundle (for now). If you can also finagle its supposed downsides into upsides, I suspect that will be viewed less as clever tactical nuance and more as a pay-to-win model with a rules exploit.

[NinthMusketeer]

It is yet another example of GW being good at creative rules design, but shockingly bad at predicting the mechanical ramifications. I suspect we'll have to wait for the inevitable balance update/eratta to get a fixed version, essentially making this initial release more of a beta.