The End of Free Warscrolls

[Sarouan]

2 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

When talking about anti-consumer policies, I was thinking of stuff like youtube trying to sell you the ability to play videos on your phone with the screen locked as part of their premium subscription service. This was not a technological innovation. It was always possible to play videos with a locked screen. What they did was change their website/app so that it normally pauses the video, and then bring back the feature for a fee. That did not improve the product at all: They first made youtube less convenient to use, then tried to sell the convenience feature they removed back. In my mind, what is currently happening with warscrolls is similar. It used to be no problem to look up basically any warscroll from any device with a web browser. You now need a dedicated app to do the same, and it's not even clear that they will indeed stay free in the future.

Except that youtube products and GW products don't have the same impact with what you feel is "anti-consumer practices".

Youtube is solely only able to be used online on their platform. AoS can be played with miniatures anywhere you set a physical board and you can buy rules in a book. You don't have to be all digital to play AoS.

So the removal of free warscrolls has actually not the same impact as trying to sell videos on your phone with the screen locked, talking about the product as a whole like you said.

Free warscrolls was just a convenience for AoS. It wasn't a main feature of AoS.

[Sarouan]

10 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

I'm sorry but this thread is full of people telling you we did exactly that--going through warscrolls on the webstore before buying anything, or showing new people the game and using these scrolls *for a demo*

I know ! But that means it's always a veteran that knows how the game is played who show the new player how it works. It was indeed convenient to do this way.

Now ? Well...veteran players doing demos will use more books than before, I guess. Or the app.

[The Red King]

5 minutes ago, Sarouan said:

Now ? Well...veteran players doing demos will use more books than before, I guess. Or the app.

Or, and stay with me here, they... won't.  They'll either pirate the rules or steer their friends away from a game system that makes predatory business moves. Are people still going to do what they did. Yes, is it going to happen less thus reducing sales and pushing potential players away making the game worse for everyone? Also yes. 

 

Tell me any benefit you see to these moves that isn't "GW makes more money" because if we treat that as a gospel fact (which it may or may not be but I'm not here to quibble about the economics) then weight it against the negative impact on the game, I personally dont find it a worthwhile move.

 

Certainly you didn't applaud EA for what they did to Battlefront 2 (that was so egregious it got multiple countries governments involved) and yet GW is heading down the same route and you cheer them on? This is the "horse armor DLC" moment that eventually gave us Elder Scrolls blades and I cant understand anyone who considers that a good thing.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

9 minutes ago, Sarouan said:

Except that youtube products and GW products don't have the same impact with what you feel is "anti-consumer practices".

This is not pertinent to my argument at all, since what I said was about the nature of anti-consumer practices, not the impact they have. It's not a contradiction to believe that moving warscrolls from the webstore to an app is anti-consumer, even if the impact is not huge. It can still be a cause of concern, because once a company starts going down the path of this kind of practice, it's frequently not an isolated incident, and companies obviously know that starting small with anti-consumer policies is less likely to provoke a huge outcry.

[Sarouan]

22 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

"I don't want to pay for rules" is a bad faith reading of people saying "I would like to double check my opponents warscrolls without buying every single book."

Your opponent come with a book, right ? Just ask him to show you the book.

Is it troublesome ? Maybe...but I don't know, checking the warscrolls on your phone while your opponent is playing just to see if he's "telling you the truth" sounds way ruder...

[Sarouan]

16 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

This is not pertinent to my argument at all, since what I said was about the nature of anti-consumer practices, not the impact they have. It's not a contradiction to believe that moving warscrolls from the webstore to an app is anti-consumer, even if the impact is not huge. It can still be a cause of concern, because once a company starts going down the path of this kind of practice, it's frequently not an isolated incident, and companies obviously know that starting small with anti-consumer policies is less likely to provoke a huge outcry.

I do understand you believe that removing free warscrolls is anti-consumer practices, but I don't. Since we're into beliefs and not facts, well...what can we do but agree that we disagree ?

 

17 minutes ago, The Red King said:

Or, and stay with me here, they... won't.  They'll either pirate the rules or steer their friends away from a game system that makes predatory business moves. Are people still going to do what they did. Yes, is it going to happen less thus reducing sales and pushing potential players away making the game worse for everyone? Also yes.

Come on. If you play GW games (meaning, using GW miniatures and, most likely, other GW stuff like paints and rules), you know you're going to spend a lot.

If the app is at reasonnable price, people will take it. Because convenience. As for the battletomes...let's be honest, new players will most likely be told to buy it anyway, free warscrolls or not.

And while you making demos to new players, you don't have to make him pay for all of that. People doing that usually have their own ressources / books, or can always have a deal with a shop manager to access to some they don't. They can use that the old way before free warscrolls existed, like I did before. I'm pretty sure they won't disappear suddenly because of that.

That some players disgrunted by the removal of warscrolls may be pushing new players to piracy, yes that will certainly exist. But that's a person's problem, here, let's be clear. If you're that angry with GW, better chances are that you'll be making demo for other games than AoS...

 

17 minutes ago, The Red King said:

Tell me any benefit you see to these moves that isn't "GW makes more money" because if we treat that as a gospel fact (which it may or may not be but I'm not here to quibble about the economics) then weight it against the negative impact on the game, I personally dont find it a worthwhile move.

Well, yes, GW makes more money...that was always the point.

Is it a bad move for AoS's popularity in the future ? I tend to think it could, but to be honest, I feel like this version of AoS being more "technical" would be more playing that part. Now it's only my feeling (as good as anyone else's, to this point). The warscrolls are just a small part of the game, after all.

 

17 minutes ago, The Red King said:

Certainly you didn't applaud EA for what they did to Battlefront 2 (that was so egregious it got multiple countries governments involved) and yet GW is heading down the same route and you cheer them on? This is the "horse armor DLC" moment that eventually gave us Elder Scrolls blades and I cant understand anyone who considers that a good thing.

I never said that or "cheered them" like you seem to think and besides, EA's practices are not the topic here.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Sarouan

[Noserenda]

11 minutes ago, Sarouan said:

I do understand you believe that removing free warscrolls is anti-consumer practices, but I don't. Since we're into beliefs and not facts, well...what can we do but agree that we disagree ?

I mean, this is an objectively anti consumer move, you are objectively wrong, if you cant accept objective facts thats not exactly agree to disagree territory is it? 

 

If the app is at reasonnable price, people will take it. Because convenience. As for the battletomes...let's be honest, new players will most likely be told to buy it anyway, free warscrolls or not.

You are assuming the app is convenient, but its really not. Perhaps if you could use it on a PC or if it was better designed (But thats a whole nother thing)  but its awkward, its limited and its replacing a couple of better systems (Epubs and free scrolls) let alone being more expensive in the long run, especially if you are only playing AoS and Warhammer+ is extremely 40k focused.

 

Well, yes, GW makes more money...that was always the point.

Are they though? I mean Anecdotally this sort of thing is a factor in me not bothering to continue my Stormcast revamp which has cost them a hundred quid, not to mention, as people already have, repeatedly, that free warscrolls were often used whilst shopping about for new armies or allies. I think, part of the reason im so confused by the matter is that it obviously feels like a stupid, short sighted business move too.

I never said that or "cheered them" like you seem to think 

I mean, perhaps you should consider what spending so much time defending their practices actually looks like to everyone else, because your sprees in this topic reeeeeally look like you cheering GW on. 

 

[Phasteon]

37 minutes ago, Noserenda said:

 

I like the app, it‘s well designed. 

 

Regarding this topic in general, I dont think free warscrolls (yes or no) really is a relevant question. 

Most people I know that are interested in AoS dont give a ****** because they buy a tome anyway and/or use the internet. 

And lets be honest, we ALL know where to get rules for free. 

[Gaz Taylor]

4 minutes ago, Phasteon said:

And lets be honest, we ALL know where to get rules for free. 

The GW site. 
 

Anything else is piracy, which is against the rules of this forum. 

[Orbei]

1 hour ago, Gaz Taylor said:

The GW site. 
 

Anything else is piracy, which is against the rules of this forum. 

In a discussion that is centered around rules being placed behind new paywalls and hurdles it is only natural that piracy is brought up. It is not an endorsement of piracy to acknowledge that it is a reality. Alternative rules sources are readily available and one can logically assume that more people will seek them out as a result of this. 

That said, it's a delicate subject and I understand that it's probably tricky to moderate. It's important for the forum to not endorse piracy for pretty obvious reasons. I appreciate how open the conversation has been.

[pnkdth]

2 hours ago, Sarouan said:

Your opponent come with a book, right ? Just ask him to show you the book.

Is it troublesome ? Maybe...but I don't know, checking the warscrolls on your phone while your opponent is playing just to see if he's "telling you the truth" sounds way ruder...

Not interrupting my opponent during their turn to familiarise myself with my opponent's army is rude now?

[CommissarRotke]

2 hours ago, Noserenda said:

You are assuming the app is convenient, but its really not. Perhaps if you could use it on a PC or if it was better designed (But thats a whole nother thing)  but its awkward, its limited and its replacing a couple of better systems (Epubs and free scrolls) let alone being more expensive in the long run, especially if you are only playing AoS and Warhammer+ is extremely 40k focused.

 

This is actually a great point, would it be that much more effort to make a PC version that we can install off the Windows/Apple store? Because limiting the digital content to Rules Only and further limiting that to mobile only apps is a huge missed opportunity.

re: where to go for free rules, wahapedia is what came to mind first for me. Which isn't piracy but again, having to rely on 3rd party content because the 1st party decided to make its content less accessible is not good.

[Sarouan]

  

30 minutes ago, pnkdth said:

Not interrupting my opponent during their turn to familiarise myself with my opponent's army is rude now?

There are ways to talk with your opponent without disrupting their turn, you know. It's called "socialising". A game doesn't have to be a battle to the death to see which one is the winner and to detect immediately who may be cheating.

I'm part of the "old school people" who never use their phone during a game doing something else on internet. I always thought it rude. You're with someone in the real life : better to give him your full real life attention as well, is that how I see it. Ah, youngsters nowadays !

Seriously, though, I know I'm some kind of dinosaur. I still write my army lists on paper and I can't help myself but needing a good old book to read the rules. I guess I must look silly playing at home with my small table carrying the core rule book, the battletome, my FAQ printed, my army list. But hey, different generation, different habits !

 

[yukishiro1]

2 hours ago, Gaz Taylor said:

The GW site. 
 

Anything else is piracy, which is against the rules of this forum. 

Well, not really. There are lots of places you can get the rules perfectly legally. GW has no copyright in the rules themselves, only the expression of them. Obviously you can't legally download a PDF of a tome, but there are lots of sources of the rules that don't violate any laws. 

For that matter, you can literally read the rules of every recent GW AOS release on youtube from Man Reads Book (and several other sources), who GW is obviously fine with, since they send him the books for free so he can read them. It certainly isn't piracy to read the rules off a youtube video by someone GW has clearly authorized to display them. 

Edited October 28, 2021 by yukishiro1

[pnkdth]

30 minutes ago, Sarouan said:

  

There are ways to talk with your opponent without disrupting their turn, you know. It's called "socialising". A game doesn't have to be a battle to the death to see which one is the winner and to detect immediately who may be cheating.

I'm part of the "old school people" who never use their phone during a game doing something else on internet. I always thought it rude. You're with someone in the real life : better to give him your full real life attention as well, is that how I see it. Ah, youngsters nowadays !

Seriously, though, I know I'm some kind of dinosaur. I still write my army lists on paper and I can't help myself but needing a good old book to read the rules. I guess I must look silly playing at home with my small table carrying the core rule book, the battletome, my FAQ printed, my army list. But hey, different generation, different habits !

 

How do you know we're not socialising? Why do you assume it is a hyper competitive setting? Why do you assume the only reason for looking something up is believing the opponent might be cheating? Maybe it is time to stop propping yourself up above everyone else and start observing others before immediately assuming the worst of them? Just a thought.

Also, it has been a long time since someone called me a youngster but I'll take it. 😊

 

Edited October 28, 2021 by pnkdth

[Sarouan]

8 minutes ago, pnkdth said:

How do you know we're not socialising? Why do you assume it is a hyper competitive setting? Why do you assume the only reason for looking something up is believing the opponent might be cheating? Maybe it is time to stop propping yourself up above everyone else and start observing others before immediately assuming the worst of them? Just a thought.

I'm not, but you wouldn't be hestitating so much to interrupt your opponent during his turn by simply asking him what does his unit do if you weren't at ease with him.

What I mean is that your cases are all hypothetical to find something that may be in your favor about free warscrolls being available anytime. The thing is : they actually don't need to be useful in this situation at all. You can play a game without feeling the "urgent need" to check the free warcrolls on GW's webstore. That kind of information can be answered in game directly by your opponent after all, can't that ?

[Gaz Taylor]

43 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:

For that matter, you can literally read the rules of every recent GW AOS release on youtube from Man Reads Book (and several other sources), who GW is obviously fine with, since they send him the books for free so he can read them. It certainly isn't piracy to read the rules off a youtube video by someone GW has clearly authorized to display them. 

 Not entirely practical for when playing a game though if I ask to see the rules for something… 

“Hang on, just got to wait for this advert for Call of Duty to finish, then I think it’s around the 13 minute mark I think..” 😁

You are right there are ways to gain access to the rules but then this drifts into another topic some people were passionate about how some people gain access to build hype about things. 

[yukishiro1]

Oh for sure. I just wanted to point out that there are a range of alternatives to piracy that will completely legally let you read GW's rules without having to buy the relevant book. Some of them may not be practical if it's your only resource, but if you just want to know what the new tomes do in a vague sense so you can be ready to face an opponent - well, you can read them word for word on what is clearly a GW approved video. 

I honestly find it very curious that GW allows people to post page-by-page videos on youtube given how protective they are of IP generally, but for whatever reason, they obviously do, so nobody should feel the least bit guilty about taking advantage of it. 

Edited October 28, 2021 by yukishiro1

[Gaz Taylor]

2 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:

I honestly find it very curious that GW allows people to post page-by-page videos on youtube given how protective they are of IP generally, but for whatever reason, they obviously do, so nobody should feel the least bit guilty about taking advantage of it. 

It’s for the hype and getting people to start buying kits. They know that some people will copy rules for their gaming group but most players will buy a copy. But what they really want is for you to get excited about a kit and buy lots and lots of them. 

[Noserenda]

You are literally sharing a rule in your signature though Gaz  

[yukishiro1]

6 hours ago, Gaz Taylor said:

It’s for the hype and getting people to start buying kits. They know that some people will copy rules for their gaming group but most players will buy a copy. But what they really want is for you to get excited about a kit and buy lots and lots of them. 

I mean, sure, I get why they'd want to do it. I personally think this is why they should be giving away rules free or close to free like most other companies do - their profits are in plastic, not in pulp. The rules exist to make you buy plastic, it makes sense to try to get the rules to everybody they can instead of locking them behind expensive paywalls. 

What I don't understand is why a company that will do that also takes away free warscrolls and in 2021 is actually discontinuing the digital option and trying to force everyone to still buy physical books. It seems so out of keeping with the rest of their IP strategy for them to be like "yeah, go ahead and literally post every page of our book online, that's fine, as long as it's youtube."

Edited October 29, 2021 by yukishiro1

[Lurynsar]

So I don’t have skin in this debate. However are free Warscrolls gone? Or just moved?

I understand they’re on the app, and the app is in a free beta. Has this changed? I have Warhammer+ which includes the 40K and AoS App. But it’s my understanding that even without a subscription you get access to the Warscrolls. I have them for Stormcast and Orruks without their new codes. Is this a subscription thing only? Is this a beta thing only that we have been told is going away?

I’m just trying to figure this out. Locally we just tell everyone to download the App and they do. Right now it seems they get all the old stuff for free (which I understand will eventually likely go away). But are Warscrolls? It seems given they’re free for Stormcast and Orruks that they’re part of the generic coding. 

So if they’re free forever on the app I suppose it’s just about the medium. For me free on the app is far superior than each as their own download on the webstore. But to each their own I’m sure. I’m just curious if we actually know “free” Warscrolls are gone or going. 

[Kasper]

1 hour ago, Lurynsar said:

So I don’t have skin in this debate. However are free Warscrolls gone? Or just moved?

I understand they’re on the app, and the app is in a free beta. Has this changed? I have Warhammer+ which includes the 40K and AoS App. But it’s my understanding that even without a subscription you get access to the Warscrolls. I have them for Stormcast and Orruks without their new codes. Is this a subscription thing only? Is this a beta thing only that we have been told is going away?

I’m just trying to figure this out. Locally we just tell everyone to download the App and they do. Right now it seems they get all the old stuff for free (which I understand will eventually likely go away). But are Warscrolls? It seems given they’re free for Stormcast and Orruks that they’re part of the generic coding. 

So if they’re free forever on the app I suppose it’s just about the medium. For me free on the app is far superior than each as their own download on the webstore. But to each their own I’m sure. I’m just curious if we actually know “free” Warscrolls are gone or going. 

I dont get how this discussion reached 14 pages with the subject "The End of Free Warscrolls" when they have a (currently) free app with all the warscrolls on there for everybody to look at. 

Nobody knows if stuff is being locked behind a paywall - At the moment it seems army specific stuff like command traits/artefacts/spell lores are locked behind actually buying the book - Since you currently unlock it by using a code at the back of the new SCE/Orruks physical book, but the warscrolls themselves are free. Literally nothing has changed, except you cant get them off the GW website but the best source has always been using the free app.

[Gaz Taylor]

2 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:

What I don't understand is why a company that will do that also takes away free warscrolls and in 2021 is actually discontinuing the digital option and trying to force everyone to still buy physical books. It seems so out of keeping with the rest of their IP strategy for them to be like "yeah, go ahead and literally post every page of our book online, that's fine, as long as it's youtube."

It’s all about building up hype. That’s it. 
 

They control it all as well as the app allows them to keep things up to date as well as the obvious benefit of signing up to Warhammer+. They’ve experimented with digital but they have decided it’s not for them (I would assume costs and getting the formatting correct). They control the previews with when the info comes out (usually).

1 hour ago, Lurynsar said:

So I don’t have skin in this debate. However are free Warscrolls gone? Or just moved?

All under new AOS app now. My beef was it was a blocker for new players but too be fair it didn’t stop me and I would guess it was a lot of work to maintain it as free pdfs.

[Sarouan]

3 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:

I mean, sure, I get why they'd want to do it. I personally think this is why they should be giving away rules free or close to free like most other companies do - their profits are in plastic, not in pulp. The rules exist to make you buy plastic, it makes sense to try to get the rules to everybody they can instead of locking them behind expensive paywalls. 

This is why they do. Core rules for AoS are available for "free", and there are still warscrolls in the 3rd edition package plastic boxes they sell - just less detailed.

 

3 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:

What I don't understand is why a company that will do that also takes away free warscrolls and in 2021 is actually discontinuing the digital option and trying to force everyone to still buy physical books. It seems so out of keeping with the rest of their IP strategy for them to be like "yeah, go ahead and literally post every page of our book online, that's fine, as long as it's youtube."

Easy to understand, though. With "free warscrolls", it makes the job easier for third party to gather the informations for their own "app" or assimilated.

It's actually very consistent with their IP protection to keep this behind their own app and youtube partners rather than the webstore. Gives more control for them.

That you may not like this is understandable, though.