AoS 3 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Aeryenn]

1 hour ago, Evil Bob said:

@Aerynn

Force List:

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Hero

• Lady Orlynder w/ Spell: Seal of Shyish
• Krulghast Cruciator (General) w/Relic: Arcane Tome, Command Trait: Master of Magic, Spell: Soul Cage
• Reikenor the Grimhailer w/ Spell: Lifestealer
• Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed w/Relic: Pendant of the Fell Wind

Battleline

• 20x Chainwrasps
• 10x Chainwrasps
• 10x Grimghast Reapers
• 3x Spirit Host
• 3x Spirit Host

Other

• 10x Bladegheist Revenants
• 10x Bladegheist Revenants

Endless Spells

• 65 Soulsnare Shackles

Total 1990

Force Composition Notes:

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1. KoSoES can be swapped out for Guardian of Souls & Burning Head Endless Spell.
2. Spirit Host can be swapped out for a Chainwrasp Unit if more damage is desired.
3. Hunter of the Heartlands for up to three infantry units BGs, GR.
4. Bladeghiests can be combined into one unit. Depends on what style of attrition or max-damage is preferred.

Strategy:

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1. Small Chainwrasp unit as a sacrificial screen. A CP on an advance move might be needed.
2. Soulsnare Shackles to limit how many giants can charge in. Wizard needs to be on a flank.
3. The Grimhailer can hurt himself for a solid cast on Lifestealer and get it back. Also good for making sure a critical Endless Spell gets off.
4. All Hero’s need to fight (at some point) except the Krulghast Cruciator.

Things to keep in mind (because I forget them):

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1. Some SoB players accidentally stack Saves with All Out Defense & Finest Hour. It is one or the other applied against cumulative Rend and Stun effects.
2. To Wound Rolls can’t be modified by more than +1/-1.

 

 

I really like your ideas! Thank you for the time you dedicated to answer my question!

I certainly will try the exact list (with guardian of souls instead of knight I think). I'm not sure if soulsnare shackles aren't a bit of a d**k move here but since my friend with giants crushed me so hard last time maybe it will even the scales.

Running 30 chainrasps seems interesting. They should buy me enough time to take his giants one by one with 20 bladegheists. I will miss my Black Coach but need to check this strategy you wrote of.

How do you use spirit hosts? In front of heroes charging enemy units? Or just staying behind to work as a bodyguard for important heroes?

[dmorley21]

I’m traveling this weekend, but just wanted to chime in that this army is really strong at attrition. You just have to lean into it. But blocks of 30 GG/Chainrasp are able to anvil just about anything. 
 

This video might be worth a watch:

 

[lare2]

5 hours ago, dmorley21 said:

I’m traveling this weekend, but just wanted to chime in that this army is really strong at attrition. You just have to lean into it. But blocks of 30 GG/Chainrasp are able to anvil just about anything. 
 

This video might be worth a watch:

 

There's my entertainment whilst washing the dishes sorted for tonight. 

[EnixLHQ]

Question: The Dreadblade Harrow's Phantasmal Discorporation ability works at the end of the movement phase, and has no language saying that it replaces movement. That means you can move the DH, and then teleport him. Is anyone aware of any tricks or tactics that would make use of this interaction? Or a reason it doesn't work this way?

For context, most teleportation abilities happen at the start of the movement phase and then also exhaust movement preventing anything else from being done. But, it appears this isn't the case for the DH and there may be something I'm overlooking.

[Rors]

Not much comes to mind.

You move him forward and trigger redeploy and your opponent moves a unit more than 9 away he can teleport to get a little bit closer, not that handy though.

Also technically I guess he could move onto an objective then teleport onto another but you can't control multiple objectives with the same unit as far as I'm aware. He could contest an objective though, situationally, he could also have some play in missions where objectives get burned.

He could also teleport in the deployment zone after taking an objective so that you both claim and objective and get the battle tactics for units in their deployment.

 

[EnixLHQ]

16 minutes ago, Rors said:

Not much comes to mind.

You move him forward and trigger redeploy and your opponent moves a unit more than 9 away he can teleport to get a little bit closer, not that handy though.

Also technically I guess he could move onto an objective then teleport onto another but you can't control multiple objectives with the same unit as far as I'm aware. He could contest an objective though, situationally, he could also have some play in missions where objectives get burned.

He could also teleport in the deployment zone after taking an objective so that you both claim and objective and get the battle tactics for units in their deployment.

 

The fake out on an enemy Redeploy is something. I can see that being used. But objective control is only checked for at the end of the turn, so moving on to an objective and then teleporting away doesn't help any, and doing the opposite doesn't make use of the actual move.

[Rors]

1 hour ago, EnixLHQ said:

The fake out on an enemy Redeploy is something. I can see that being used. But objective control is only checked for at the end of the turn, so moving on to an objective and then teleporting away doesn't help any, and doing the opposite doesn't make use of the actual move.

I thought you can move units off objectives and still have claimed them. For example turn one deploy on an objective then move up the board still counts as that units owning the objective. I've been playing that wrong the whole time then.

[EnixLHQ]

17 minutes ago, Rors said:

I thought you can move units off objectives and still have claimed them. For example turn one deploy on an objective then move up the board still counts as that units owning the objective. I've been playing that wrong the whole time then.

Oh, no, that's correct. Once you have an objective it's yours. You only ever lose if the number of your units, in that case 0, is ever lower than the enemy units can can claim it at the end of the turn, so >0. If you claim it and then leave it next turn and no one else ever comes to get it later, it remains yours the whole time.

But, I don't see how the DH can abuse this with the whole being able to move AND teleport thing.

[Rors]

1 hour ago, EnixLHQ said:

Oh, no, that's correct. Once you have an objective it's yours. You only ever lose if the number of your units, in that case 0, is ever lower than the enemy units can can claim it at the end of the turn, so >0. If you claim it and then leave it next turn and no one else ever comes to get it later, it remains yours the whole time.

But, I don't see how the DH can abuse this with the whole being able to move AND teleport thing.

So it's only on T1 that you can claim an objective but not have that unit on it at the end of turn? I.e. unit deploys on the objective then moves off it in the movement phase.

If it's just T1 then yeah there's no benefit from the teleport. If it's not there's very little in the way of benefit outside some very niche scenarios.

I'm trying to think of things that are triggered by movement because what it basically boils down to is you can trigger these things and position yourself elsewhere to have the cake and eat it too. There's really not much though.

Does the harrows copy a command count as also issuing the command? If it doesn't then you could theoretically copy the generals command (in the movement phase, like the run one) then position somewhere else to give all out attack? I'm fairly sure the harrow can only do the one command though even if it's the free copy the general ability so you can't issue run to a unit then teleport somewhere else to use another command using CP.

Probably not helpful currently but it's something worth keeping in the back on mind as any unit that can respond to your moment or actions that can be triggered by movement will be relevant if they emerge in the future.

[Leshoyadut]

1 hour ago, Rors said:

So it's only on T1 that you can claim an objective but not have that unit on it at the end of turn? I.e. unit deploys on the objective then moves off it in the movement phase.

Correct, it is only at the start of turn one that you claim objectives that you are standing on at the beginning of the round. For everything after, you only claim it at the end of turn as @EnixLHQ said.

[Dogmantra]

Re: Dreadblade Harrows and objective shenanigans, there is one battleplan where it may come into play.

Apex Predators changes the objective capture rules to be if a Leader ends a move in 3" of an objective with no enemy leader in range, or kills an enemy leader in range.

So theoretically you could capture an uncontested objective then teleport elsewhere to perhaps threaten another, or be a source of command abilities. I'm not sure it will be too extremely useful given it's a 3-objective scenario with no prime objectives (and may well be removed in the next GHB).

[Liquidsteel]

Went 3-2 with Scarlet Doom at a small but extremely competitive 2 dayer this weekend, finished 4th out of 18.

https://tabletop.to/justice-series-2-dayer-june

Beat 3 x Gatebreaker with Incarnate twice, as well as DoK Snakes with Incarnate (AoS Worlds Winner). Losing two super close games vs Beast spam Nurgle and Tempest Eye cities (both players ranked top of their respective factions in the UK).

Dropped the cute KoSoES spiteful combo for Kurdoss and glad I did, it never really worked out for me before. Kurdoss exerted pressure similar to an Akhelian King. 

Bladegheists put in absolute shifts, definitely averaged higher on the impact hits but that's dice. Best so far is 13 mortals from 20.

[EnixLHQ]

2 hours ago, Dogmantra said:

Re: Dreadblade Harrows and objective shenanigans, there is one battleplan where it may come into play.

Apex Predators changes the objective capture rules to be if a Leader ends a move in 3" of an objective with no enemy leader in range, or kills an enemy leader in range.

So theoretically you could capture an uncontested objective then teleport elsewhere to perhaps threaten another, or be a source of command abilities. I'm not sure it will be too extremely useful given it's a 3-objective scenario with no prime objectives (and may well be removed in the next GHB).

Okay, perfect. So "some battle plans might have objective rules where the DH being able to move and then teleport could be a clever way to abuse the rules" or something similar. I can work with that. Thank you.

[The_Dudemeister]

2 hours ago, Liquidsteel said:

Went 3-2 with Scarlet Doom at a small but extremely competitive 2 dayer this weekend, finished 4th out of 18.

Congrats 👏

How did Ruler Of The Spectral Hosts perform for you? I'm still on the edge for that one

[DrThunder]

Does having 2 Dreadblades mean you can copy the generals command twice per round?

[Neck-Romantic]

We believe so

[dmorley21]

Discussing Nighthaunt is going to be so different with the new book. A quick look at tournament results over the weekend:

In addition to @Liquidsteel and his Scarlet Doom list go 3-2 at the Justice Series (Ian and Richie's old podcast was what really got me into AoS), we also saw:

Matthew Gouldesbrough go 4-0-1 at a 29 player event running Scarlet Doom. He's a great AoS player. His list was:

Spoiler

Krulghast - General/Cloaked in Shadow

Guardian of Souls - Seal of Shyish

Spirit Torment - Arcane Tome/Shademist

30 Bladegheists

10 Bladegheists

10 Bladegheists

6 Spirit Hosts

4 Myrmourn Banshees

Black Coach

Battle Regiment

Dave Carter went 3-2 at the same event running an Emerald Host list:

Spoiler

Guardian of Souls* - General / Master of Magic / Beacon of Nagashizzar / Soul Cage

Guardian of Souls*** - Lightshard of the Harvest Moon / Shademist

KoSoES*

Kurdoss*

Lord Executioner***

Spirit Torment***

5 Hexwraiths**

5 Hexwraiths**

5 Hexwraiths***

5 Hexwraiths***

3 Spirit Hosts**

3 Spirit Hosts***

2 Chainghasts***

2 Chainghasts***

* = Command Entourage, Magnificent

** = Hunters of the Heartlands

*** = Battle Regiment

At the US Open in San Diego, Frank DeLoach took his Scarlet Doom list to a 4-1 finish:

Spoiler

Olynder* - Spectral Tether

Spirit Torment*

Spirit Torment* - Lightshard of the Harvest Moon

Krulghast - General / Master of Magic / Arcane Tome / Seal of Shyish

20 Bladegheists**

20 Bladegheists**

20 Grimghasts**

3 Spirit Hosts

3 Spirit Hosts

* = Command Entourage, Magnificent 

I'll stop posting lists at this point, but also at the San Diego U.S. Open, Kyle Claip took his Emerald Host to a 3-2 finish. 

At the Atlantic City Open, Tom Lyons took an Emerald Host to a 3-2 finish. 

At an RTT in Florida (US, Onslaught), Chris Miller to his Emerald Host to a 3-0 finish. 

In Utah (US) at an event called Wargames for Warriors, William Froehle took an Emerald Host to a 4-1 finish. That one featured 2 20 blocks of Reapers. 

 

 

There were also a lot of less than optimal results, but what we're seeing is that Nighthaunt can very much be competitive with the new book. We're also seeing primarily Scarlet Doom and Emerald Host taken. I think if Nurgle remain a powerhouse after the new GHB, that we'll see Quicksilver Dead start popping up more. All of the results I got were from Best Coast Pairings - I didn't look at TTO. 

[Liquidsteel]

23 hours ago, The_Dudemeister said:

Congrats 👏

How did Ruler Of The Spectral Hosts perform for you? I'm still on the edge for that one

It was "okay", came in clutch in my game vs DoK to tie up the incarnate for an extra turn, allowing me to safely score my battle tactic and grand strategy and take the win.

I was short on time at list submission and didn't really think much of the others. Master of Magic and Arcane Tome are a decent combo, but I wanted to test Lightshard this time.

[dmorley21]

If you’re not in the competitive NH Discord, there’s a couple people discussing their 4-1 results in the tournament section. Invite link:

https://discord.gg/d2dQuWyU
 

Also - I’m pumped about the new contrast paints! The Briar Queen one might be the basis of my new scheme. 

[Liquidsteel]

On 6/12/2022 at 4:29 PM, Dogmantra said:

Re: Dreadblade Harrows and objective shenanigans, there is one battleplan where it may come into play.

Apex Predators changes the objective capture rules to be if a Leader ends a move in 3" of an objective with no enemy leader in range, or kills an enemy leader in range.

So theoretically you could capture an uncontested objective then teleport elsewhere to perhaps threaten another, or be a source of command abilities. I'm not sure it will be too extremely useful given it's a 3-objective scenario with no prime objectives (and may well be removed in the next GHB).

The issue with that (I know it's just an example but someone might try it) is that you lose control of the objective once you teleport away.

In the last GHB you could teleport away and still hold it; the new mission is no longer the case.

[Dogmantra]

Oh I totally missed that part when I was looking at the rules. Been a while since I played that battleplan. I guess that means you can't do the shenanigan

[lare2]

With Fight or Flight, if I'm not contesting an objective at the end of turn 5, do I get it?

[EnixLHQ]

From my new (in progress guide): "Fright or Flight: Keep all enemy units away from Nighthaunt units if those NH units are on objectives. See 18.1.2 CONTESTING OBJECTIVES, it doesn’t mean “fighting for” just present on an objective."

I'm still waiting back on confirmation if my take is correct or not, but think this can be achieved in a couple of ways.

The first and obvious one is that all NH units that are sitting on objectives don't have any enemies within 6" of them. Meaning the NH units could be on one far edge of the objective aura, and an enemy of fewer count can be on the other end, and this would still be valid because you would 1) have NH on an objective, 2) you have more models in the objective aura than your opponent, and 3) the enemy is not within 6" of your NH unit.

The second way is just to not be contesting objectives where the enemy is. You've left. Or avoided them. The verbiage doesn't check for control only that you aren't in the middle of trying to take over an objective from an enemy. So as long as you aren't triggering a control check on any objectives this passes.

I guess that makes sense from the title, Fright maybe meaning you've kept all enemies away and Flight meaning you've bailed on the objective.

[EnixLHQ]

Speaking of the guide, I wanted to ask everyone something. Let's make this into kind of a poll.

If the (currently) 58-page guide were to stay that big and dense, would you prefer:

• A link to a third-party site where I could include navigation links and preserve formatting choices otherwise not supported here. (❤️ this post to vote for this)
• A link to a downloadable file (likely PDF) which would have two ways to navigate the document, but has no way of being dynamically updated and you'd have to check. (🏆 this post to vote for this) 
• Hosted on the TGA blog space, but using additional blogs as "pages" that you could navigate forward and back on, but not jump to any particular section except from the very first page only. (😕 this post to vote for this)
• Hosted on the TGA blog space just like the last guide was, just a realllllly long blog post. (😢 this post to vote for this)
• Hosted on the TGA blog space, but with all of the stuff that's found in the book basically cut out, and no commentary on that stuff. (😍 this post to vote for this)

I just chose the like, thank, confuse, etc., in order, they don't reflect my preferences. As a long-winded writer, I certainly don't 😍 the last option.

Please let me know!

Edited June 14, 2022 by EnixLHQ

[lare2]

2 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

Hosted on the TGA blog space just like the last guide was, just a realllllly long blog post. (😢 this post to vote for this)

Cheers for the Fright of Flight breakdown. 

Went for the quoted above option. Found everything just fine in your previous guide. Chrome's 'find in page' option was ample for me.